Babylon 5

[Werthead]

Babylon 5 was greyer than many other universes of the time, but at the end of the day, you knew that the main characters were never in the morally wrong. So while it was greyer as a whole, there was still something of a black and white pattern to Babylon 5.

Well, Londo clearly was for a large chunk of the series, as was G'Kar at the start, and a lot of time was spent analysing on whether rebelling against your government and unleashing warfare rather than waiting for the right moment for a bloodless revolution was right or not: even after Earth is liberated from Clark, Sheridan is still a controversial figure and he doesn't even argue too hard against the new president when she basically tells him he was in the wrong. Sheridan is also clearly depicted as being in the wrong during his interrogations of Morden in In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum, to the point where Garibaldi and Ivanova forcefully tell him so, and he later admits it.

[Werthead]

This is kind of awesome. A site where the designers and CGI animators talk about their designs and ideas for the show. One of the goals (partially successful) was to identify exactly which person designed which spacecraft.

Particularly interesting (on the Asimov entry) is that Ron Thornton reports that the reason B5's CGI was outputted in low-res was because they didn't have a proper widescreen monitor to test the HD results on (recalling they started work on B5 in 1992 on the pilot). They asked the producers for one and were told no, so they just created normal-def images. A proper widescreen monitor would have cost them $5,000, or $75 per episode that Foundation Imaging worked on the show (or just $45 per episode if Babylonian had loaned it to FI and used it for all of the post-FI episodes as well).

In retrospect this as an astonishing mistake. The low-quality CGI basically prevents B5 from being released on Blu-Ray, and it could have been avoided at the time if it hadn't been for some extreme penny-pinching.

[Crazydog7]

I miss this show alot. It had what more TV shows need Harlan Ellison.

[Werthead]

I miss this show alot. It had what more TV shows need Harlan Ellison.

Ellison's role wasn't huge on B5. He came up with ideas for two episodes that JMS fleshed out, failed to write another despite going on about it for several years (the sequel to his Outer Limits episode, Demon With a Glass Hand) and talked to JMS a fair bit about ideas, particularly pushing forwards the science angle (like including the station's tonnage in the opening narration). He was more of someone to bounce ideas off than an overwhelmingly strong force on the show day-to-day, I understand.

[Crazydog7]

Not to hear him tell the tale up you are probably correct knowing Ellison's ability to cast himself as the hero in his own life's story.

[felice]

Particularly interesting (on the Asimov entry) is that Ron Thornton reports that the reason B5's CGI was outputted in low-res was because they didn't have a proper widescreen monitor to test the HD results on

Well, it would have been done in 16:9 if they'd had the monitor, but presumably still only anamorphic DVD resolution rather than actual HD! Rendering at a higher resolution would have taken much more processor time/money. But even that would have been a huge improvement on the cropped versions we're stuck with. If only they hadn't lost all the files...

[ZombieWife]

A total CGI dunce here, but couldn't they rework the scenes the same way Lucas did? I thought the effects on the Lost Tales were pretty awesome. I imagine it would take a metric assload of time and money to "pretty the effects up."

But, who knows, maybe in another 10-15 years, someone will have a cheap way of doing it and a lot of time on their hands. :)

[felice]

Oh yes, they could redo all the CGI from scratch; it would be expensive, but a hell of a lot less expensive than filming an entirely new series, and I'd expect less expensive than the original CGI was at the time, thanks to technological advancements. The big question is whether the raw film footage is still intact; at least the pilot is unfortunately ruined, but I'm not sure about the rest of the series. If most of the film is available, they could do a really neat Blu-ray edition a la Star Trek; otherwise, the best that could be managed is an improved DVD-quality release, and they'd be stuck with the existing VHS-quality versions of all the composite scenes (where CGI is combined with live action).

[Werthead]

That's the problem. The CGI could be totally redone. It would be expensive, but possible. However, the composite scenes rely on the original live-action footage being intact so they can re-do it in HD. If it's not around any more (B5's film stock was stored in a warehouse that, at different times, was flooded and infested with rats) then they are screwed.

Warner Brothers' preference, believe it or not, is to remake the show from scratch with new actors, a bigger budget etc, but with JMS still in charge (how a remake would work given that we know how everything turns out, I'm not sure, but then it's not hurting GoT and there's plenty of people who refuse to watch B5 due to the 'old-fashioned' style of acting). Plans for that were put on hold last year. How solid and advanced those plans are was unclear.

The linked articles feature the most comprehensive summary of why Foundation Imaging left B5. They went over-budget on Season 3 because the amount of CGI asked for hugely exceeded what was agreed upon (look at Messages from Earth, Severed Dreams, Walkabout and Shadow Dancing alone and you can see why). Doug Netter, who'd been looking to create his own VFX house anyway, seized on that as an excuse to show that FI were incompetent and had them removed from the show. Ron Thornton notes that the oft-trotted-out excuse that FI was sacked because there were working on Star Trek is bollocks (as I indicated in a prior discussion, FI's work on Trek did not begin until after they left B5, as a simple look at airdates will show). The also oft-trotted-out excuse that they were going to use junior animators and trainees on the show is also explained: Thornton told Netter that unless they could make good the budget overruns on Season 3, the only theoretical way to balance the books would be to use cheaper animators for Season 4. Basically this was a strategem to fix the budget problem and also to ensure the same thing didn't happen on Season 4. However, Netter used this as another explanation of FI's incompetence. And then, rather bizarrely, hired some of the exact same 'junior animators' to run Netter Digital. Thornton notes that, unlike at the time, he now believes JMS was totally unaware of what was going on (and JMS more recently said he believes in hindsight it was a conflict of interest to use Netter Digital on the show, but he was to wrapped up in the writing to really pay attention to it).

A very, very bizarre situation. Amusingly, Thornton's most recently worked on the George Lucas Red Tails movie, and his reports of working on that are quite interesting. He points out that the Star Wars prequels had a fair bit of corner-cutting and cost-saving going on in their CGI, but as outside contractors they weren't allowed to deliver anything but 'perfect' results to Lucas.

Also, B5's CGI budget was 10% of what FI later had to work with on the Star Trek shows, but whilst only 1 CG shot on B5 was rejected, they had something like 75% of their Star Trek work sent back to be redone for reasons of perfectionism (the other CG teams apparently had the same problem). This is why B5 had tons of CG shots per episode whilst Trek only ever had a few.

[felice]

the composite scenes rely on the original live-action footage being intact so they can re-do it in HD. If it's not around any more (B5's film stock was stored in a warehouse that, at different times, was flooded and infested with rats) then they are screwed.

Do you have any references for that? I know bits of the Gathering were eaten by rats, but apparently that was before the DVD release, and they managed to work around it somehow. I haven't been able to find anything conclusive on the state of the film stock for the rest of the series.

Warner Brothers' preference, believe it or not, is to remake the show from scratch with new actors

That would be insane. Surely they can come up with a new space opera rather than remake something less than two decades old? (Oh gods, it's the 20th anniversary next year - I'm old!)

[Werthead]

The DVD release used the existing master tapes. I don't think they needed to go back to the original film stock (given the so-so quality of the images, it would appear not) so AFAIK the status of the original stock remains unknown.

As we know has happened with STTNG, the massive remastering of the series for HD was only possible because 1) the original effects were mostly done optically on film, so should stand up to HD levels of detail any way, and 2) the original footage, even for the composite stuff, was stored under a salt mine in Virginia to ensure nothing could happen to it. This has allowed the new remastering project to go ahead. Hopefully, it's a massive success and that will encourage Warners to do something similar for B5, if possible.

That would be insane. Surely they can come up with a new space opera rather than remake something less than two decades old?

It's insane from the POV of the existing fans, but Warner Brothers seems to want to broaden the appeal of the series for a modern audience. Babylon 5 has dated in production values, far moreso than its contemporary Star Trek series, and that puts a lot of people off from watching the show now. A full remake is the only way to address that. The problem is that for the existing fans it will be completely pointless, not to mention unthinkable to see roles like G'Kar recast.

I'd rather see a new series set in the same continuity but maybe later on (in fact, we're not far off having 'caught up' with the time difference between the original series and Sleeping in Light, and starting a new series immediately after B5's demolition could be interesting). However, I think the most interesting thing about the B5 setting is the main story arc. With that resolved, all attempts to establish new storylines and series in the universe seem doomed to failure (as we've seen multiple times already).

[Derfel Cadarn]

A remake has potential. Oka, so we know how the arc goes, but it would be interesting to see a season 1 and 5 that don't suck. Also be good to have standalone episodes that aren't cheesy.

[williamjm]

I'd rather see a new series set in the same continuity but maybe later on (in fact, we're not far off having 'caught up' with the time difference between the original series and Sleeping in Light, and starting a new series immediately after B5's demolition could be interesting). However, I think the most interesting thing about the B5 setting is the main story arc. With that resolved, all attempts to establish new storylines and series in the universe seem doomed to failure (as we've seen multiple times already).

I think one problem with the past attempts at continuing the franchise is that they've been tied too closely to the original series, which probably limits the potential audience to existing B5 fans and puts off new viewers. It was often also a bit underwhelming for the existing fans of the show since the threat usually seemed to be a group of Shadow allies that had survived the Shadow War, since we'd already seen their masters defeated the Drakh (to take one example) didn't seem like a particularly interesting threat. If they were going to do a sequel, I'd rather they did what you suggest and do something post-Sleeping in Light with relatively limited references to the original series.

I don't like the remake idea, the problem with remaking good shows is that it's very easy to do a show that's worse than the original (despite having better CGI). If they were going to remake something, I'd rather see a Crusade remake, the premise had a lot of potential even if the show ended up being a bit of a disaster and with a more supportive studio and a lot of reworking it could be a good show. I think I'd move the show forward a bit in the B5 continuity, the basic premise can be done without it having to happen in the immediate aftermath of the Shadow War.

[felice]

AFAIK the status of the original stock remains unknown.

Ok, so there's still hope.

Babylon 5 has dated in production values, far moreso than its contemporary Star Trek series, and that puts a lot of people off from watching the show now.

If they can remaster it in proper HD 16:9 with modern CGI, I don't see why it wouldn't work for modern audiences. What sort of dating did you have in mind?

I think the most interesting thing about the B5 setting is the main story arc. With that resolved, all attempts to establish new storylines and series in the universe seem doomed to failure (as we've seen multiple times already).

Indeed. It's hard to top determining the fate of the entire galaxy on evolutionary timescales.

[drawkcabi]

I'm fine with the existing B5 story and really see anything continuing in that universe as anti-climatic like williamjm.

If they are able to find original footage in good enough condition to redo the sfx completely that would be interesting to see but I don't find it necessary.

A remake of B5, also unnecessary, but if they rebooted the universe there are possibilties for to rediscover/reinvent those "chills" moments whenever in the original series some new bit of information was revealed or something particularly awesome happened. I always thought JMS' idea of eventually having Babylon Prime (Babylon 4 transported to the future to fight the shadows instead of the past) a cool idea and wouldn't mind seeing that.

[Werthead]

If they can remaster it in proper HD 16:9 with modern CGI, I don't see why it wouldn't work for modern audiences. What sort of dating did you have in mind?

The show's production values were lower than contemporary series anyway, and haven't aged brilliantly. The less-well-built sets are quite obvious in places and the drop in visual quality in composite scenes makes them stand out a lot (remember that every scene in the observation port at the end of the cobra bay arms was on a virtual set, like the important Sheridan/Emperor conversation in Coming of Shadows or the assassination attempt in the S5 opener, and those scenes now all appear fuzzy, not to mention any scene with a CG landscape or in a Starfury cockpit).

It has also dated in terms of pacing and film technique, although I think that was true at the time (the long, talky scenes and theatrical writing and acting in particular). There would probably be an urge now for shorter scenes, getting to the point quicker and a shooting/writing style more like say BSG's, which I'm not sure would work well for B5.

If they are able to find original footage in good enough condition to redo the sfx completely that would be interesting to see but I don't find it necessary.

It would be necessary to release the series on Blu-Ray. Watching the DVDs, the drop in visual quality whenever composite shots came on was quite noticeable, and would be far worse on Blu-Ray.

[drawkcabi]

Eh, it's good enough you don't need everything on blu-ray anyway.

[Ran]

Changing the storytelling means it's not B5 any more. For all the faults, the theatricality is central to many of the show's greatest moments.

BSG was fine. But it was BSG. B5 should be B5.

[felice]

If they are able to find original footage in good enough condition to redo the sfx completely that would be interesting to see but I don't find it necessary.

It should have been possible to re-render exactly the same effects in HD widescreen; that's what JMS intended. The existing DVD version is a horrible hack job with all CGI or composite scenes cropped down from 4:3. I'd prefer redone effects to be as close as possible to what the originals would have looked like if they hadn't lost the files necessary to re-render them at higher resolution. B5 was always intended to be made available in HD 16:9, which makes a remastered version a lot more necessary than than for other shows.

The less-well-built sets are quite obvious in places and the drop in visual quality in composite scenes makes them stand out a lot (remember that every scene in the observation port at the end of the cobra bay arms was on a virtual set, like the important Sheridan/Emperor conversation in Coming of Shadows or the assassination attempt in the S5 opener, and those scenes now all appear fuzzy, not to mention any scene with a CG landscape or in a Starfury cockpit).

That composite fuzziness is something that would be fixed if the original film still exists and high-res versions of the CGI elements were created. I never had a problem with the quality of the sets, but if necessary perhaps some of those could be touched up with CGI too?

It has also dated in terms of pacing and film technique, although I think that was true at the time (the long, talky scenes and theatrical writing and acting in particular). There would probably be an urge now for shorter scenes, getting to the point quicker and a shooting/writing style more like say BSG's, which I'm not sure would work well for B5.

It's certainly a different style, but I'm not entirely convinced it's unacceptable to a modern audience. Surely not every show has to fit the same style?

[Dr. Tachyon]

I don't like the remake idea, the problem with remaking good shows is that it's very easy to do a show that's worse than the original (despite having better CGI). If they were going to remake something, I'd rather see a Crusade remake, the premise had a lot of potential even if the show ended up being a bit of a disaster and with a more supportive studio and a lot of reworking it could be a good show. I think I'd move the show forward a bit in the B5 continuity, the basic premise can be done without it having to happen in the immediate aftermath of the Shadow War.

Does the world really need yet another soap opera with a couple of guys on a space ship? I think that horse has been dead for 20 years. B5 was interesting because it was an entire city, not just a space ship. That allowed for much more diversity on both cast and setting.

As for a remake, they couldn't possibly tell exactly the same story again with a different cast. It would have to be more a re-imagining like Battlestar Galactica. But what for? Did BSG really gain anything from using the old show's name(s)? I doubt it.

Redoing the CGI would be like colorizing a black and white movie. I hope they'll just let the show rest in peace.