The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1681814' date='Feb 10 2009, 15.10']Btw, about the Lyanna thing above... Am I the only one who would find her horribly hypocritical if she truly ran off with Rhaegar? I mean, she doesn't like Robert, because he's basically a whoremonger who'll never stay true to her. And she runs off with a [i]married man with two kids[/i]? I mean, come on, she basically becomes the type of ditz that she thinks that Robert would fall for when they are married.[/quote]
There's a difference in fidelity between being in a three-party marriage in which none of the members have sex with anyone outside the marriage....and being in a two-party marriage where one member has sex with whatever random barmaid happens to catch his eye on any given night.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Szar' post='1681786' date='Feb 10 2009, 14.47']You're right, I had forgotten that particular detail. Looking it up, there's nothing that says they knew about it, however -- Ned is the one who broaches the subject.[/quote]
And you're right that it is Ned who brings up the fact Viserys is on Dragonstone with his mother and Willem Darry, but the Kingsguard's response is in effect "yeah we know, but we are where we need to be - we swore a vow." Just what is the vow they so proudly claim to uphold? If it is the oath of the Kingsguard then they need to get at least one of their members to Viserys - if he is the true heir - and guarding a mistress of a dead prince, even if she has a bastard child, would be a far distant obligation. If they don't know until Ned brings it up, something I find extremely unlikely, that Viserys is on Dragonstone, then they should be negotiating with him to get there as fast as possible. Yet Ned is puzzled why they are still at the Tower and want to fight him. I read this as a fairly certain indicator the Kingsguard thinks they are right where they want to be - defending the heir to the throne.

[quote name='Szar' post='1681786' date='Feb 10 2009, 14.47']Running off with Rhaegar does not necessarily mean she refuses Robert. She's described as a wild girl -- she could want to feel what it's like to be [i]free[/i], with the famous, handsome, exotic prince Rhaegar (who has shown interest in her!) before being shackled to a man she knows will betray her eventually. Remember, she's around sixteen at the time of her death. There's absolutely no indication that she thought about what her actions meant. There's nothing that says she intended to get married to Rhaegar even though she slept with him. Heavens knows that enough teenagers get pregnant without meaning to even in this day and age.[/quote]
How do you think she could willingly run of with the Crown Prince, against the wishes of both her family and Robert's family, and just have everything ok after she sows her wild oats? I don't get the idea that Westerosi society is that advanced toward equality of the sexes that that would be remotely possible.

However, my point about Lyanna's personality was more along the lines of what would she do to protect the interests of her child. I think we have ample examples of her standing up for herself and others, Howland Reed in particular, to say she would not accept having her child live a life as a bastard if she could do anything to change it. With Rhaegar she can.

[quote name='Szar' post='1681786' date='Feb 10 2009, 14.47']We simply do not know enough of Lyanna and her personality to make judgements on why she does what she did (if she even did it).[/quote]
While I'll welcome more information, I think we have enough information about her that seems to me to reinforces the likelihood suggested by the Kingsguard's actions that an heir to the throne was at the Tower of Joy.

[quote name='Szar' post='1681786' date='Feb 10 2009, 14.47']Perhaps. I simply do not see it as necessary for the story or for the characters, and so to me, it sounds -- as I said -- like wishful thinking.[/quote]
I can't say that I know what is necessary for the story Martin wants to tell, but I certainly don't see R+L=J getting in the way of the story told so far or detracting from it in the future. My only wish here is that Martin continues the series' excellence to the last book. Hell, he has inspired me to write pages and pages of speculation on where he is going with the story - hardly something I do with other authors.

[Rinso]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1682137' date='Feb 10 2009, 19.06']There's a difference in fidelity between being in a three-party marriage in which none of the members have sex with anyone outside the marriage....and being in a two-party marriage where one member has sex with whatever random barmaid happens to catch his eye on any given night.[/quote]
Three-party marriage? Where did you get that? For all we know, there was no legal marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna and Elia [i]surely[/i] didn't know about it. That makes Lyanna as bad as the random barmaids.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1682150' date='Feb 10 2009, 19.20']Three-party marriage? Where did you get that? For all we know, there was no legal marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna and Elia [i]surely[/i] didn't know about it. That makes Lyanna as bad as the random barmaids.[/quote]
A three-party marriage has been discussed for ages in these threads, SFDanny mentioned the idea just a few posts ago. Presumably the precedent of Targaryen polygamy was introduced into the story for a reason, and Jorah Mormont broached the idea with Dany.

As for Elia, Dany's vision in the House of the Undying has Rhaegar naming Aegon and stating there must be one more. Elia's health has been described as frail and delicate, and the "abduction of Rhaegar and Lyanna doesn't need to have happened immediately after the tourney at Harrenhal...it could have been several weeks later.

Regardless Elia [i]was there[/i] when he crowned Lyanna Queen of love and beauty, so there's no basis for claiming that it's impossible that she was informed or gave her consent to the plans.

[Rinso]

If it was meant to be a legal marriage all along, why Rhaegar and Lyanna had to run off like thieves, instead of ask outright? Sure, she may have been promised to Robert, but Rhaegar was still the heir of the Iron Throne, so his wish carried some weight. Instead she either ran off with him and got married in secret and hiding, or was abducted and raped.

[Shewoman]

Rinso, Martin has said that the war began a year or two after Harrenhal. The "abduction"--or whatever it was--of Lyanna happened some time after that. Brandon Stark was supposed to marry Catelyn Tully, but he ws so angry at his sister's disappearance that he gathered his men and rode to Kings Landing, (and getting them together and making the trip must have taken some time) where he called on Rhaegar to come out and die. (He didn't.). Aerys was so angry that he had all of Brandon's men and their fathers executed--along with Brandon and Rickard Stark. This led to the alliance among Starks, Tullys, and Arryns to defeat Aerys (and this is why Ned had to marry Catelyn). He called on Arryn to send him Ned's and Robert's heads. He didn't, and that's usually considered the beginning of the war.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1682178' date='Feb 10 2009, 20.45']If it was meant to be a legal marriage all along, why Rhaegar and Lyanna had to run off like thieves, instead of ask outright? Sure, she may have been promised to Robert, but Rhaegar was still the heir of the Iron Throne, so his wish carried some weight. Instead she either ran off with him and got married in secret and hiding, or was abducted and raped.[/quote]

A crazy father who made it clear at Harrenhal he had no use for the Starks, Dornish interests who wouldn't want to see any new heirs to the throne other than Elia's, the injured pride of House Baratheon, and a Stark family that was more interested in keeping its word to the Storm Lord than the interests of Lyanna all might have something to do with it.

[Rinso]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1682204' date='Feb 10 2009, 21.03']Rinso, Martin has said that the war began a year or two after Harrenhal. The "abduction"--or whatever it was--of Lyanna happened some time after that. Brandon Stark was supposed to marry Catelyn Tully, but he ws so angry at his sister's disappearance that he gathered his men and rode to Kings Landing, (and getting them together and making the trip must have taken some time) where he called on Rhaegar to come out and die. (He didn't.). Aerys was so angry that he had all of Brandon's men and their fathers executed--along with Brandon and Rickard Stark. This led to the alliance among Starks, Tullys, and Arryns to defeat Aerys (and this is why Ned had to marry Catelyn). He called on Arryn to send him Ned's and Robert's heads. He didn't, and that's usually considered the beginning of the war.[/quote]
Yes, I know all of that. What that has to do with anything?

[quote name='SFDanny']A crazy father who made it clear at Harrenhal he had no use for the Starks, Dornish interests who wouldn't want to see any new heirs to the throne other than Elia's, the injured pride of House Baratheon, and a Stark family that was more interested in keeping its word to the Storm Lord than the interests of Lyanna all might have something to do with it.[/quote]
Of course. Which begs the question - what [i]the hell [/i]were they thinking. With all these circumstances, it would have been better to ask outright instead of running off/kidnapping. No way that could have caused more mess.

[Shewoman]

Rinso, I think I meant my last post for Other-in-law, who suggested that the abduction of Lyanna could have happened several weeks after Harrenhal. I think it would have to be longer, given Martin's statements that the war started a year or two after Harrenhal.

And, no, I wouldn't think Lyanna was hypocritical for getting involved with a married man after mentioning to Ned that she knew Robert wouldn't be faithful to her. She was right about that, I'm sure. She didn't tell her brother that that was a breaking point for her; she didn't say she wouldn't marry Robert. She just stated a well-known fact about his behavior. If, on the other hand, she'd made a stirring speech about how she valued absolute fidelity above all things, then she would be hypocritical for running off with Rhaegar . . . although, of course, we don't know what happened to her, where she went, or who, if anyone, was with her.

[Rinso]

Okay, then why would she say that? Why would GRRM give us her opinion, unless to show how she didn't love him and it wasn't thrilled of his habits and nature. And yes, she didn't say that she doesn't want to marry him, she showed it with her actions, unless you assume that Rhaegar kidnapped her.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1682225' date='Feb 10 2009, 20.27']Rinwo, I think I meant my last post for Other-in-law, who suggested that the abduction of Lyanna could have happened several weeks after Harrenhal. I think it would have to be longer, given Martin's statements that the war started a year or two after Harrenhal.[/quote]
I've heard the quote referred to of course, but do you have the exact reference? I thought that he meant more that the war didn't [i]end[/i] until 2 or 3 years after Harrenhal, though it would presumably have started within one year.

There's fudge room in all of this, since one could say [i]the war[/i] didn't start with the abduction or Brandon's ultimatum or the burning of the Starks, but only around the point that Aerys demanded Ned and Robert's heads from Jon Arryn, and Arryn defied him. Or even with the first early battles in the Vale, which would have been quite some time after Rhaegar disappeared with Lyanna.

I vaguely recall someone calculating that baby Aegon would not have been born until after Harrenhal was over, since he was still an infant at the time of the Sack.

[Ouroboros]

According to A Game of Thrones, the war only lasted about a year.

[Shewoman]

Other-in-Law, this is a link to an essay at the Citadel that deals with the length of time betweetn Harrenhal and the outbreak of war.

[url="http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/What_happened_when_during_Roberts_Rebellion/"]http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/...erts_Rebellion/[/url]

[Guest Other-in-law]

Thanks, Shewoman.
[quote]According to GRRM, he believed it took place a year or two prior to the beginning of the war (SSC), [b]although he was clear about not being certain[/b]. Two years seem impossible, as the war itself lasted a year, meaning a span of three years would have passed; but Jaime Lannister was 15 at Harrenhal and 1either 17 or very nearly so at the time of the Sack. One year is not impossible, however, [b]especially given the uncertainty as to when the beginning of the war is dated[/b].[/quote]
It does sound pretty indefinite, and I see that I'm not the only one wondering what the official 'start event' of the war is. If it's the first actual battle, that could be quite a bit later than Rhaegar and Lyanna's disappearance, since there would be a bit of time mustering those first troops.

[Shewoman]

My impression is that the war "started" when Jon Arryn refused Aerys' orders to send him Robert's and Ned's heads and called his banners instead (and Ned and Robert called theirs). Obviously there had been killing prior to that--Brandon and Rickard Stark, along with Brandon's men and the fathers of all of them.

I don't know when Jaime's birthday is, but if he had just turned fifteen at Harrenhal and was still 17 at the time of the Sack, that could be a 3-year span. On the other hand (and I realize I'm the one who brought this up), I don't know that the amount of time between Harrenhal and the outbreak of war is all that important. I don't think I know anything about what happened during that time aside from the shenanigans involving Brandon and Littlefinger at Riverrun, the engagement of Catelyn and Brandon, the disappearance of Lyanna Stark, Brandon's trip to Kings Landing with his squires where he demanded that Rhaegar come out and die, and Aerys' demand that the fathers of Brandon's men (and Brandon) come to KL, where he had them all killed. I believe it was shortly after this that he demanded that Arryn send him his fosterlings heads.

[Cowgirl]

i am very confused regarding the timeframe

If Brandon & Rickard die a few days before Brandon was to marry Cat that means there was a wedding between 2 fairly major houses taking place. So, wouldn't all of the members of both of the families have been at Riverrun preparing for the wedding immediately prior to Brandon running off to Kings Landing?

In other words, wouldn't Rickard have been hanging with Hoster preparing for thier kids to wed. And Lyanna would surely have been a bridesmaid what with being the grooms sister and all, so she should have been chilling with Cat & Lysa. And, shouldn't at least one if not both of Brandons brothers been standing up with him? So, if all of these things are going on, then it seems that Lyanna ran/was abducted from Riverrun and that Brandon left from Riverrun to "rescue" her and that Ned may not have been anywhere near the Eryie when his head was demanded. right?

Is this a tough scenario to swallow for anyone but me? or more precisely, can anyone tell me why most if not all of the Starks wouldn't have been at Riverrun right before all the shit hit the fan?

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Cowgirl' post='1683281' date='Feb 11 2009, 15.37']i am very confused regarding the timeframe

If Brandon & Rickard die a few days before Brandon was to marry Cat that means there was a wedding between 2 fairly major houses taking place. So, wouldn't all of the members of both of the families have been at Riverrun preparing for the wedding immediately prior to Brandon running off to Kings Landing?

In other words, wouldn't Rickard have been hanging with Hoster preparing for thier kids to wed. And Lyanna would surely have been a bridesmaid what with being the grooms sister and all, so she should have been chilling with Cat & Lysa. And, shouldn't at least one if not both of Brandons brothers been standing up with him? So, if all of these things are going on, then it seems that Lyanna ran/was abducted from Riverrun and that Brandon left from Riverrun to "rescue" her and that Ned may not have been anywhere near the Eryie when his head was demanded. right?

Is this a tough scenario to swallow for anyone but me? or more precisely, can anyone tell me why most if not all of the Starks wouldn't have been at Riverrun right before all the shit hit the fan?[/quote]
I've gone back and forth on this one but the speculation that makes most sense to me, at least at this point, has the Starks minus Benjen - there must always be a Stark in Winterfell - in the Eyrie when the "abduction" takes place. But the essence of what you are getting at is probably true. The Starks have likely traveled from Winterfell (via White Harbor) in preparation for the wedding, and stopped in the Eyrie to both get Eddard and spend time with Jon Arryn and Lyanna's future husband Robert. Lyanna being in the Vale and discovering Mya Stone would explain her conversation with Ned about Robert's character. This view is also bolstered by the presence of Elbert Arryn and Kyle Royce in the party that Brandon takes to King's Landing to demand Rhaegar come out and die. Rickard being in the Vale would shorten the time considerably for him to respond to Aerys' summons and also help explain Aerys demand to Jon Arryn to send him Robert and Ned's heads (he would look to the Vale as the center of this conspiracy to kill Rhaegar.) Too many possibilities to know for sure, but this is the one that rings true to me.

[Aplomb]

All that makes sense SF, except for one thing: Robert. I can't see Rhaegar abducting Lyanna (or her running away willingly) from a place where Rickard, Brandon, Robert and Ned are, and only Rickard and Brandon going to King's Landing to call out Rhaegar. Ned I can see maybe staying behind to watch over the main body of Stark guards or some other task for his father, but Robert would have insisted upon going.

Maybe a slight modification explains it. Everyone you mention gathers at the Eyrie, where Lyanna sees Mya Stone. Rickard, Brandon, Lyanna and others such as Elbert and Kyle set out in a small party for Riverrun. Ned and Robert stay behind to, I don't know, have one last hunt with Jon Arryn, pack up their stuff from their foster days, wait for straggling lords delayed on the trip from the North, whatever, planning on setting out for Riverrun a little later.

Rhaegar abducts or "abducts" Lyanna from someplace like the Crossroads Inn or thereabouts. The rest of the party hightails it to King's Landing. This takes place while Ned and Robert are still tooling around in the Vale, without their knowledge until it's too late and Jon gets the fatal bird from Aerys.

This also explains away another problem: how to abduct someone from the Aerie, or run away from it, with all the waycastles and the like. ("It's impregnable!")

[SFDanny]

I've no problem with the modifications, in particular, I should have said in the Vale, not in the Eyrie, when the abduction takes place. I agree it is very unlikely that Rhaegar takes Lyanna out from the Eyrie.

[Guest Other-in-law]

I could see a partial variation on that overall itinerary. Brandon and Ned heading to the Eyrie (Brandon's companions make that his presence there seem probable), Benjen and possibly Lyanna heading up the Kingsroad to Winterfell (and being somewhere along the Green Fork when Rhaegar caught up with them), Rickard staying at Winterfell until Benjen arrived to replace him. Then Rickard either riding back down the Kingsroad or sailing to KL out of white Harbor after he heard about Lyanna and especially about Brandon.

The explanation for hot-headed Robert not joining Brandon in his challenge must be either that he was too far away somehow or under the restraining influence of Jon Arryn. That could be either from Brandon having already left the Vale when he heard (probable if he was only a few days ride from Riverrun) and Robert remaining; he wouldn't absolutely need to go to Brandon's wedding, or maybe they were just planning on leaving in separate parties. It might make sense for the groom to arrive earlier than mere guests, since there would be planning to do and the Tullys would soon be part of his family. For that matter, since Ned was still in the Vale when everything happens points to separate parties leaving for Riverrun.

The distance to Winterfell seems to be the really long one that would slow everything else down waiting. Possibly not only Rickard but also Benjen would have sailed instead of rode...the nearest port to Harrenhal would be on the mouth of the Trident, either Saltpans or Maidenpool. If any of them rode across half the Vale to Gulltown, it would end up being nearly as long as riding up the Kingsroad, so it wouldn't save very much time.

The biggest unknown seems to be what Lyanna's intended route after Harrenhal was. Was she supposed to go straight to Riverrun and hang out? Go back to Winterfell with Benjen? Surely not to the Vale with Brandon, else he would have known immediately and chased Rhaegar rather not know where to find him. It seems probable that she was intended to stay with either a male Stark or her future in-laws the Tullys.