Bakker and Women 4

[Diziet]

Serwë is one of the only characters - perhaps the only main character - who seems capable of real faith. She is also perhaps the only character who, despite having as horrible a past as any, is able to overcome her own personal history and use her faith and relationship with Kellhus to reforge herself completely. She kind of becomes an embodiment of the Dunyain view of history, in a way :P

Thanks, but I can't say I agree with the last part. If anything she's the opposite of the Dunyain view.

[Tears of Lys]

All good points, but the bolded in particular is what I think Bakker's referring to. Serwe truly believed Kellhus was God, thus helping to make it real. She basically got the ball rolling, causing Kellhus to go from merely pretending to be the God, to actually becoming the God. Serwe and Kellhus's divine connection in that way is what allowed the latter to remove the former's heart (by reaching through the Outside, I think, as WoTK has speculated before). Their souls were "linked" in some way because of Serwe's total, utterly devoted and unflinching belief. She was the very first to do so, and thus ostensibly the most important. That's my theory, anyway. I can't see any other aspect of Serwe's character or arc that would warrant such a heavily loaded comment from RSB.

That's the best explanation I've heard so far. This will qualify me for the "something I've learned" thread.

[Happy Ent]

Everything I know about life I’ve learned in westeros.org’s Bakker threads.

[lokisnow]

Does anyone know what Bakker meant when he said that Serwe is the most important character in the series?

Shimeh. Send to me my son.

Not: Momemn. Send to me my son.

Everything that happened was a quest, as Moënghus had said. Even the movements of one’s soul—thought, desire, love—were journeys across something trackless. Cnaiür had thought himself a point of departure, the origin of all his far-travelling thoughts. But he was nothing more than a muddied track, a trail used by another to reach his destination. The thoughts he had called his own had all along belonged to another. His wakefulness was but one more dream in a deeper slumber. By some unearthly cunning, he had been tricked into obscenity after obscenity, degradation after degradation, and he had wept with gratitude.

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (pp. 347-348). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.

Cnaiür had chosen their path carefully. He intended to cross the Hethanta Mountains into the Empire, even though a lone Scylvendi could not expect to live long among the Nansur. It would have been better to avoid the Empire altogether, to travel due south to the headwaters of the River Sempis, which they could have followed directly into Shigek, the northernmost governorate of Kian. From there they simply could have followed the traditional pilgrimage routes to Shimeh. The Fanim were rumoured to be surprisingly tolerant of pilgrims. But if the Inrithi were in fact mounting a Holy War against Kian, this route would have proven disastrous. For Kellhus especially, with his fair hair and pale skin . . .

No. He needed, somehow, to learn more about this Holy War before striking true south, and the nearer they travelled to the Empire, the greater the probability of happening across that intelligence became. If the Inrithi didn’t wage Holy War against the Fanim, they could skirt the edges of the Empire and reach Fanim lands unscathed. If they did wage Holy War, however, they would likely be forced to cross the Nansurium—a prospect that Cnaiür dreaded.

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 371). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.

Then, with unaccountable certainty, he realized that Kellhus would kill him.

The mountains were looming, and the Steppe swept out behind them. Behind them. The son of Moënghus no longer needed him.

He’ll kill me while I sleep.

No. Such a thing could not happen. Not after travelling so far, after enduring so much! He must use the son to find the father. It was the only way!

“We must cross the Hethantas,” he declared, pretending to survey the desolate yaksh.

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (pp. 374-375). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.

He had struck a bargain with the Dûnyain: freedom and safe passage across the Steppe in return for his father’s life. Now, with the Steppe almost behind them, it seemed he had always known the bargain was a sham. How could he not? Was not Kellhus the son of Moënghus?

And why had he decided to cross the mountains? Was it truly to discover whether the Empire was embroiled in a holy war, or was it to draw out the lie he had been chasing?

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 375). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.

Kellhus watched while the Scylvendi took her again. With her whimpers, her suffocated cries, it seemed the ground beneath slowly spun, as though stars had stopped their cycle and the earth had begun to wheel instead. There was something . . . something here, he could sense. Something outraged.

From what darkness had this come?

Something is happening to me, Father.

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 383). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.

So. We know that Kellhus was going to kill Cnaiur since they had reached the Hethanta mountains. The shortest path to Shimeh is not through the mountains, and Kellhus knew that Cnaiur had deceptive reasons for crossing them into Nansur. What's more, Cnaiur has no more value, he has guided Kellhus but he has also successfully warded all of Kellhus' attempts to leverage his soul, so Kellhus cannot control him because he has no method or tool with which to control him. Kellhus will kill Cnaiur.

If Kellhus kills Cnaiur, he turns south and effortlessly skirts the Nansur empire until reaching Kian. Moenghus would have undoubtedly posted watchers for Kellhus at the border, and Cnaiur's reason for why Kellhus would be endangered makes since for a blonde, but really would not apply to a Dunyain, who find it effortless to sooth Kian suspicions of his Blonde hair and fair skin.

In the previous chapter, Kellhus tells Cnaiur he is going to kill Moenghus, which is what Cnaiur wants to hear because Cnaiur wants to kill Moenghus. This lie, that Kellhus will kill Moenghus, is the reason Cnaiur makes his bargain with Kellhus to take him across the steppe to the mountains. Later in the chapter it switches to Kellhus' perspective and he considers using the tactic of telling Cnaiur the truth (but not to much) in order to try and control Cnaiur. That strongly suggests the "kill Moenghus" line Kellhus feeds Cnaiur is the Dunyain tactic of "tell them what they most want to hear," that it seemed to be.

Moenghus said Shimeh, he did not say Momemn. Kellhus would have followed the shortest path if not for encountering Serwe.

While Kellhus witnesses Serwe being raped, The World Turns He experiences something outside himself acting upon him and generating thoughts that are not his. We know Serwe has been praying for revenge, justice and salvation, Kellhus is a vehicle by which her prayers are answered. Additionally, Serwe gives Kellhus a way to control Cnaiur, and that means Cnaiur still has value to Kellhus and they continue to follow Cnaiur's plan to enter the Nansur empire.

Because of Serwe, Kellhus crosses the Hethanta mountains and joins the holy war on the side of the Nansur empire. Kellhus does not join the holy war on the side of the Kian.

Because of Serwe, the Holy war does not perish in the desert.

Because of Serwe, the Kian do not invade the depleted Inrithi lands under the leadership of Kellhus, they do not succeed in sacking Sumna and succeeding in their cultural quest to destroy the tusk.

Because of Serwe the entire three seas are not unified under Aspect Emperor Kellhus and the Kian religion.

And that is just the practical implications of Serwe's significance. Serwe's perspective is the most profoundly metaphysical perspective in the first three books, and her metaphysical actions are the reason Kellhus was able to perform the miracle of Serwe's heart, which ennabled the defeated Inrithi to overthrow the Kian siege and install Kellhus as a divine figure.

The outcome of the whole world turned upon that crime, the rape of Serwe. And Kellhus perceived the whole world churning in outrage, and the fate of the world changing because of that crime.

[sologdin]

good catch, the world turning. it is the equivalent of a copernican revolution, and we might take that phrase as kant took it. well done.

[Anatúrinbor]

Because of Serwe, Kellhus crosses the Hethanta mountains and joins the holy war on the side of the Nansur empire. Kellhus does not join the holy war on the side of the Kian.

Because of Serwe, the Holy war does not perish in the desert.

Because of Serwe, the Kian do not invade the depleted Inrithi lands under the leadership of Kellhus, they do not succeed in sacking Sumna and succeeding in their cultural quest to destroy the tusk.

Because of Serwe the entire three seas are not unified under Aspect Emperor Kellhus and the Kian religion.

Yeah, but if it weren't for Leweth there would be no Aspect-Emperor Kellhus or even Prince of Nothing to begin with.

[Kalbear]

WHAT OF THE ACORN PASTE

[Diziet]

Because of Serwe, the Holy war does not perish in the desert.

Thanks, nice post. But if everything happened as if Serwe were not there Kellhus would have found a way to succeed nonetheless and people would say that if it were for Serwe the Holy War would have perished in the desert.

[lokisnow]

No, I was saying, that if Kellhus doesn't encounter Serwe, he kills Cnaiur and turns south to take the shortest path to Shimeh

If Kellhus does not join the Holy War, the Kian strategy of destroying the Inrithi supply ships after they're halfway through the desert works.

If Kellhus were not there to find water, the holy war perishes in the desert, because all the other wells were poisoned.

Either that, or the numbers are more catastrophic. Remember, they lose 2/3 of their force to the desert even with Kellhus finding water for the holy war. They probably use more like 5/6 without Kellhus.

Then, even if they succeed in taking Caraskand with this reduced and even more weak force, the Inrithi will perish from the siege of Caraskand becuase they won't have the Circumfix to give them Cnaiur's deus ex conviction machina.

What I'm saying is that if Kellhus doesn't join the holy war, the strategy of the Kian has been perfectly engineered and conditioned to destroy the Holy War with minimal losses of Kian forces. This leaves most of the three seas extremely vunerable to a Kian war of unification. A counter Holy War.

The Holy War only succeeds because Kellhus encounters Serwe the day he would have killed Cnaiur, and Serwe becomes a tool by which he can control Cnaiur, but that also means he acquiesces to Cnaiur's illogical plan to enter the Nansur empire and take the longest path to Shimeh rather than the shortest path. Kellhus dupes himself with self flattery when he thinks the very undunyain, very testosterone-deluded-macho thought of:

Everything depended on the domination of circumstance. He would not join the Holy War, he would seize it, wield it as his instrument.

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 401). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.

Kellhus feels as though he is entitled to anything he wants--even more so than Conphas--and a paragraph after this, he selfishly crowns himself a prince because he has such a big view of himself. If we take Kellhus to be a deliberate critique of the genre's tendency towards ubermensch, we see that Kellhus errs most when he is embodying the genre traits the most.

That's part of the bitter twist. it's all a colossal 'fuck up' and the hero/protagonist ubermensch doesn't even know it is because he (and the audience) think he has succeeded because he "won."

Moenghus summoned Kellhus to lead the Kian against the Inrithi. That is why Moenghus summoned Kellhus to Shimeh.

Instead Kellhus went to Momemn and led the Inrithi against the Kian. It's a colossal fuck up. Kellhus cannot conceive of himself being on the other side of the war once he is on the Inrithi side. Once he has chosen his side, every assumption he makes is that he is on the right side. He's incapable of thinking he is on the wrong side. So he reads all of the signs about how the holy war is conditioned but reads all of those signs from the perspective that his side is the right side.

[Anatúrinbor]

Kellhus feels as though he is entitled to anything he wants--even more so than Conphas--and a paragraph after this, he selfishly crowns himself a prince because he has such a big view of himself. If we take Kellhus to be a deliberate critique of the genre's tendency towards ubermensch, we see that Kellhus errs most when he is embodying the genre traits the most.

That's part of the bitter twist. it's all a colossal 'fuck up' and the hero/protagonist ubermensch doesn't even know it is because he (and the audience) think he has succeeded because he "won."

Doesn't the Circumfix prove him right though?

[Larry of the Lawn]

Doesn't the Circumfix prove him right though?

Maybe. Or maybe the probability trance just got him out of a tight spot by a short and curly.

[Diziet]

That's part of the bitter twist. it's all a colossal 'fuck up' and the hero/protagonist ubermensch doesn't even know it is because he (and the audience) think he has succeeded because he "won."

Why is joining the Inrithi side a collosal fuck (from Kellhus' PoV, not Moe's)? And yes, he has succeeded because he won and became AE. His goals were not necessarily alligned with Moe's.

[lokisnow]

Doesn't the Circumfix prove him right though?

Um. Not really.

Kellhus is summoned to Shimeh. he's not summoned to Momemn.

If he goes to Shimeh by the shortest path after killing Cnaiur he never joins the holy war on the inrithi side. There never is a Circumfix and the nexus of unpredictability that would go with the Circumfix.

Moenghus would seek to avoid the Circumfix--which is why he summoned Kellhus to Shimeh. If he wanted an unpredictable Circumfix and the Inrithi to win, he would summon Kellhus to Momemn.

Moenghus wanted a predictable outcome and he wanted the Kian to win the holy war which is why he summoned Kellhus to Shimeh. When Cnaiur and Kellhus encounter Serwe, everything changes. Immediately after this, Kellhus, makes a major calculation error, the most basic error, he confuses correlation for causation:

Kellhus watched while the Scylvendi took her again. With her whimpers, her suffocated cries, it seemed the ground beneath slowly spun, as though stars had stopped their cycle and the earth had begun to wheel instead. There was something . . . something here, he could sense. Something outraged.

From what darkness had this come?

Something is happening to me, Father.

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 383). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.

“What did you ask her?”

The Scylvendi looked at him sharply. Kellhus watched the small drama of his expression—a squall of significances. Remembered hatred, but a previous resolution remembered as well. Cnaiür had already decided how to handle this moment.

“I asked her about the Nansurium,” he said finally. “There’s a great movement in the Empire—in the whole Three Seas. A new Shriah rules the Thousand Temples. There’s to be a Holy War.”

She did not tell him this; she confirmed it. He knew this before.

“A Holy War . . . Waged against whom?” The Scylvendi attempted to gauge him, to sound the quizzical mask he wore as a face. Kellhus had grown increasingly troubled by the shrewdness of the Scylvendi’s unspoken guesses. The man even knew he intended to kill him . . .

Then something strange came across Cnaiür’s expression. A realization of some sort, followed by a look of supernatural dread, the sources of which eluded Kellhus.

“The Inrithi gather to punish the Fanim,” Cnaiür said. “To retake their lost holy lands.” Faint disgust coloured his tone. As though a place could be holy. “To retake Shimeh.”

Shimeh . . . My father’s house.

Another groove. Another correspondence of cause. The implications for the mission bloomed through his intellect. Is this why you’ve summoned me, Father? For holy war?

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 385). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.

Note the last bits especially. After the world stopped moving and reoriented itself, Kellhus makes a crucial mistake that the news of a holy war massing in Momemn (heading to Shimeh) is a conditioned path. But Kellhus finding out that news at that moment is not the sort of event Moenghus can condition. And Moenghus would expect that with Kellhus trying to get to Shimeh, he would not deviate from the shortest path south... but Serwe is the uncontrolled variable that triggered Kellhus making the bizarre and insanely unpredictable paths of joining the inrithi. That decision to choose the longest path with a nadir of possible positive probable outcomes rather than the shortest path with maximal possible positive outcomes is the sort of pathway the White Luck Warrior takes, it's the opposite of the Dunyain maximal probability approach.

And here's the bizarre bit about that latter quote: That moment is the only time that Kellhus questions it. After this point he assumes he's been summoned to the Inrithi side of the holy war because of the correlation error of being summoned to Shimeh and the Inrithi waging a holy war towards objective Shimeh. And he never questions that conclusion, a conclusion that directly contradicts being summoned to Shimeh and the Dunyain principle of shortest path and leads relentleslly to the Circumfix which has a maximal probability of death and mission failure.

[Rhom]

I had never heard that line of reasoning, but it certainly makes sense.

Considering this has nothing to do with Bakker and Women and the numbered thread is at page 21... Perhaps we could consider it there?

[Anatúrinbor]

Um. Not really.

Kellhus is summoned to Shimeh. he's not summoned to Momemn.

If he goes to Shimeh by the shortest path after killing Cnaiur he never joins the holy war on the inrithi side. There never is a Circumfix and the nexus of unpredictability that would go with the Circumfix.

Moenghus would seek to avoid the Circumfix--which is why he summoned Kellhus to Shimeh. If he wanted an unpredictable Circumfix and the Inrithi to win, he would summon Kellhus to Momemn.

Moenghus wanted a predictable outcome and he wanted the Kian to win the holy war which is why he summoned Kellhus to Shimeh. When Cnaiur and Kellhus encounter Serwe, everything changes. Immediately after this, Kellhus, makes a major calculation error, the most basic error, he confuses correlation for causation:

That wasn't what I was talking about. You said "Kellhus feels as though he is entitled to anything he wants--even more so than Conphas-- . . . If we take Kellhus to be a deliberate critique of the genre's tendency towards ubermensch, we see that Kellhus errs most when he is embodying the genre traits the most."

Problem with this is that at the moment when Kellhus literally thinks that he is entitled to everything, when he thinks that there is no frame that could restrict him... he pulls Serwe's heart out and proves himself right, unlike Conphas.

[Diziet]

I had never heard that line of reasoning, but it certainly makes sense.

Considering this has nothing to do with Bakker and Women and the numbered thread is at page 21... Perhaps we could consider it there?

It was about Serwe's importance to PoN. Which is related to the thread I guess.