The ASOIAF wiki thread

[Ran]

1 minute ago, Nittanian said:

Works good, thanks!

If anyone runs into any others pages the act the same way, let me know. We've actually killed the specific rule that caused it there, but you never know what other security rule may get tripped by a random URL.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

The wiki states that Cohollo was Khal Drogo's Ko as well as bloodrider but is that true ? I can not find a source for this.

Haggo and Qotho are only stated to be Drogo's bloodriders not his Kos. The titles of "Ko" and "bloodrider" are different in Dothraki culture. The former is a commander within a Khalasar and the latter is a personal guard/friend/trusted person in the immediate entourage of a Khal.

I know Daenerys named Aggo, Jhogo and Rakharo both her Kos and her bloodriders at the end of AGOT so it is not unprecedented for a dothraki to hold both titles. But I always read this as Daenerys having no one else competent that she could rely upon to lead her little Khalasar with her so she decided to named her bloodriders as commanders as well.

[Ran]

Cohollo is never named ko in the books, so I think that is an error.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

15 minutes ago, Ran said:

Cohollo is never named ko in the books, so I think that is an error.

I thought so, I fixed it.

[Ennigaldi-Nanna]

The succession boxes at the bottom of the articles of recent members of House Baratheon are a bit wonky:

• Stannis Baratheon has "King of Westeros" under "titles in pretence", which he should have, but Renly Baratheon does not have his royal claim listed in the same way. I suggest "King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men" and
  "Lord of the Seven Kingdoms" be added to Renly as "titles in pretence", with Robert as his predecessor. His successors in this should probably be both Joffrey and Stannis since his supporters became divided in their loyalties.
• The succession boxes of Renly Baratheon and Robert Baratheon put Renly becoming Lord of Storm's End and Lord Paramount of the Stormlands in 283 AC. The Lord of Storm's End template puts the year as 286 AC. Which (if any) is correct?
• Stannis Baratheon is recognized as Lord of Storm's End and Lord Paramount of the Stormlands in his succession box, since the death of Renly in 299 AC. Lord of Storm's End is correct since Stannis is in possession of the castle but Lord Paramount of the Stormlands is a vassal title (right?) that Stannis does not claim - he is not listed in the article on that title. If a new Lord Paramount is named in the future I agree that Stannis should be listed as their predecessor (as he is the overlord of the region) but the title should not be among those of his own succession boxes.
• I suggest that Lord of Storm's End be added to "titles in pretence" for Joffrey Baratheon (succeeding Renly) and Tommen Baratheon with a note that the claim is titular because Stannis is in possession of the castle.

 

[Nittanian]

Quote

F&B Jaehaerys and Alysanne - Their Triumphs and Tragedies

Thousands of years before the Conquest, when the Kings of Winter still reigned in the North, Brandon the Shipwright had built an entire fleet of ships to cross the Sunset Sea. He took them west himself, never to return. His son and heir, another Brandon, burned the yards where they were built, and was known as Brandon the Burner forevermore. A thousand years later, ironmen sailing out from Great Wyk were blown off course onto a cluster of rocky islands eight days' sail to the northwest of any known shore. Their captain built a tower and a beacon there, took the name of Farwynd, and called his seat the Lonely Light. His descendants lived there still, clinging to rocks where seals outnumbered men fifty to one. Even the other ironmen considered the Farwynds mad; some named them selkies. 

Is this indicating that the Farwynds of the Lonely Light are the founding branch of the family? Right now, the wiki has House Farwynd (for the Sealskin Point branch) and House Farwynd of the Lonely Light (for the western branch). We could follow the House Flint example and move the current "House Farwynd" to "House Farwynd of Sealskin Point".

[The Wondering Wolf]

4 hours ago, Nittanian said:

Is this indicating that the Farwynds of the Lonely Light are the founding branch of the family?

Aeron knew some Farwynds, a queer folk who held lands on the westernmost shores of Great Wyk and the scattered isles beyond, rocks so small that most could support but a single household. Of those, the Lonely Light was the most distant, eight days’ sail to the northwest amongst rookeries of seals and sea lions and the boundless grey oceans. The Farwynds there were even queerer than the rest.

To me, this doesn't sound like the Farwynds of the Lonely Light were the founding branch, but I guess there could be ways to explain why there are so many Farwynds closer to the main isles now who seem much more important than the Lonely Light Farwynds. Anyways, moving the page as you proposed may be more accurate.

[direpupy]

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Aeron knew some Farwynds, a queer folk who held lands on the westernmost shores of Great Wyk and the scattered isles beyond, rocks so small that most could support but a single household. Of those, the Lonely Light was the most distant, eight days’ sail to the northwest amongst rookeries of seals and sea lions and the boundless grey oceans. The Farwynds there were even queerer than the rest.

Aeron knowing the Farwynds of Great Wyk says nothing of which branch was founded first so to me this says nothing about that subject.

6 hours ago, Nittanian said:

Their captain built a tower and a beacon there, took the name of Farwynd, and called his seat the Lonely Light.

This does speak of a founding because the captain actually gives himself the name Farwynd, so i think that they are at least the oldest branch.

[Oneiros Drakontos]

16 hours ago, Nittanian said:

Is this indicating that the Farwynds of the Lonely Light are the founding branch of the family? Right now, the wiki has House Farwynd (for the Sealskin Point branch) and House Farwynd of the Lonely Light (for the western branch). We could follow the House Flint example and move the current "House Farwynd" to "House Farwynd of Sealskin Point".

Given also the name, Far Wind, the branch of the Lonely Light is plausibly the founding one. Moving the page of the Sealskin Point branch is a good idea.

[The Wondering Wolf]

@Ran

The wiki says that Asabhad is a starting point for caravans that want to cross the Mountains of the Morn. This is based on the entry in the app, but looking at the map, the Bone Mountains would make more sense. Is this an error?

[Oneiros Drakontos]

Actually, the page doesn't talk of "crossing" mountains, it says "Asabhad is where many caravans begin their journey to the Mountains of the Morn". I don't think it's an error, they are caravans that pass through Further East.

Edited April 10 by Oneiros Drakontos

[The Wondering Wolf]

9 minutes ago, Oneiros Drakontos said:

Actually, the page doesn't talk of "crossing" mountains, it says "Asabhad is where many caravans begin their journey to the Mountains of the Morn". I don't think it's an error, they are caravans that pass through Further East.

The app says:

[...] the starting point for many caravans seeking to cross the Mountains of the Morn.

I think most of the entries in the app for places in the Further East are based on cut pieces from the Worldbook and show the Westerosi view on these areas. So I find it strange that the Westerosi know that many caravans cross the Mountains of the Morn while in the same time they are not even sure that there are any lands beyond the mountains.

[Oneiros Drakontos]

2 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

The app says:

[...] the starting point for many caravans seeking to cross the Mountains of the Morn.

I think most of the entries in the app for places in the Further East are based on cut pieces from the Worldbook and show the Westerosi view on these areas. So I find it strange that the Westerosi know that many caravans cross the Mountains of the Morn while in the same time they are not even sure that there are any lands beyond the mountains.

Thanks for clarifying that.

Yes, it's weird. It could be a mistake, although I'm inclined to think that the text means to refer to the Mountains of the Morn, because Asabhad doesn't seem to be near the main roads of the Bones.

[The Wondering Wolf]

5 hours ago, Oneiros Drakontos said:

because Asabhad doesn't seem to be near the main roads of the Bones

Well, at least it's closer to the roads of the Bones than to the Mountains of the Morn.  But there is something weird about this road between Asabhad and Qarth, indeed. The text says that the Bones extend to the Jade Sea, so this road would at least lead through the foothills of the Bones, but it is totally ignored when the text discusses the three roads leading through the mountains. I have no idea why anyone would use the Sand Road or even the Stone Road if it was possible to pass the mountains through its foothills close to the sea. In my opinion someone should ask GRRM if this road actually exists (it wouldn't be the only error with the maps). A road which connects Asabhad and Bayasabhad would make much more sense to me.

Edited April 10 by The Wondering Wolf

[Potsk]

Night's King is mentioned in TWOIAF as "the Night's King." Is this a proper alternative form or is it an error? In the main books it is consistently without a definite article.

Quote

ASOS Bran IV

"It was here that Night's King had reigned"

"the tale of Night's King"

"Night's King and his corpse queen"

"all records of Night's King had been destroyed"

"Night's King was only a man by light of day"

AFFC Samwell I / ADWD Jon II

"Brandon the Builder, Symeon Star-Eyes, Night's King"

[Ran]

George went through and made corrections, additions, etc. to that section, so I think he felt it was an acceptable usage, at least in the context of a maester in Oldtown.

[The Wondering Wolf]

@Ran

There have been some uncertainties regarding (the) Wyl of Wyl. F&B has him without definite article, indicating his given name is Wyl (like Wylla of Wyl), while the Worldbook calls him the Wyl of Wyl, similar to the Stark of Winterfell. So if both are correct, he would be Wyl Wyl, Lord of Wyl, called the Wyl of Wyl, right?

[Ran]

Pretty sure any uses of 'Wyl' without an article are just like Ned being called 'Stark'. I don't think we know his first name.

[Nittanian]

I created a new article for "Alchemy" since there are more types of alchemists than just the fire-focused guild in King's Landing.

"Pyromancers" currently redirects to "Alchemists' Guild" (since most references to pyromancers in the books are to the KL guild), and we also have an article for "Firemage" (only referencing the mage briefly seen by Dany in Qarth).

Melisandre differentiates between alchemists and pyromancers:

Quote

She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers. (ADWD Melisandre I)

Yandel does as well:

Quote

The dark city by the Shadow is a city steeped in sorcery. Warlocks, wizards, alchemists, moonsingers, red priests, black alchemists, necromancers, aeromancers, pyromancers, bloodmages, torturers, inquisitors, poisoners, godswives, night-walkers, shapechangers, worshippers of the Black Goat and the Pale Child and the Lion of Night, all find welcome in Asshai-by-the-Shadow, where nothing is forbidden. (TWOIAF Asshai-by-the-Shadow)

Hallyne's pyromancers encountered by Tyrion just seem to be concerned with wildfire, but pyromancers at Joffrey's wedding are able to manipulate fire.

Quote

Four master pyromancers conjured up beasts of living flame to tear at each other with fiery claws whilst the serving men ladeled out bowls of blandissory, a mixture of beef broth and boiled wine sweetened with honey and dotted with blanched almonds and chunks of capon. (ASOS Tyrion VIII)

Not all alchemists are pyromancers, and I don't think we can say that all pyromancers are members of the Alchemists' Guild. Might it be better to have an article titled "Pyromancers" (or "Pyromancy", though I don't think GRRM has used that specific word yet) to differentiate pyromancers/firemages as a general concept from the Alchemists' Guild in KL?

 

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

@Nittanian Where would you put the Valyrian mages ? Their own category, or more akin to firemages or to pyromancers ?

Quote

Of these, some argue that it was the curse of Garin the Great at last coming to fruition. Others speak of the priests of R'hllor calling down the fire of their god in queer rituals. Some, wedding the fanciful notion of Valyrian magic to the reality of the ambitious great houses of Valyria, have argued that it was the constant whirl of conflict and deception amongst the great houses that might have led to the assassinations of too many of the reputed mages who renewed and maintained the rituals that banked the fires of the Fourteen Flames.

-TWOIAF, Ancient History: The Doom of Valyria

Quote

They even attempted to restore the Targaryen dragons, despite Aegon's fears—for which none could blame him after witnessing his mother being eaten alive. He dreaded the sight of dragons—and had even less desire to ride upon one—but he was convinced that they would cow those who sought to oppose him. At Viserys's suggestion, he sent away for nine mages from Essos, attempting to use their arts to kindle a clutch of eggs. This proved both a debacle and a failure.

-TWOIAF, The Targaryen Kings: Aegon III

Quote

And intent on one more thing: dragons. As he grew older, Aegon V had come to dream of dragons flying once more above the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. In this, he was not unlike his predecessors, who brought septons to pray over the last eggs, mages to work spells over them, and maesters to pore over them.

-TWOIAF, The Targaryen Kings: Aegon V

 

I don't remember where I heard this but I have a vague memory that the Dragonlords and Valyrian mages were the more powerful factions in the Valyrian Freehold and the practice of incest was more frequent with them compared to a common noble freedholder. I also believe those two factions intermingled at times, so that some members of Dragonlord families became mages and some mages married into dragonlord families. If any body can find a source for this it would be great; otherwise, disregard what I just said.