Battlestar Galactica Thread #13

[Shryke]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1734404' date='Mar 26 2009, 13.49']FTL drives are a necessity if you want to have interstellar travel in the show. Putting the Colonials 150000 years in the past is a result of lazy, badly researched or ill though out writing.[/quote]

Why?

[Shryke]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1734286' date='Mar 26 2009, 12.48']Define "always". Since the Exodus of the 13th tribe? Since the destruction of Cylon-Earth? Since the founding of the Colonies? Since the creation of yet another form of robot with advanced AI by the Colonials?

And my question isn't "What was the plan?" (I gathered that much, thank you very much), it's "Why were the events of the show the plan?". Why not something a little bit simpler? Because a lot of it seemed awfully random and unnecessary. So much in fact, that I'm not sure how much of it was actually divine intervention.[/quote]

Since always. The end pretty much spells out the plan.

Humanity comes along. Develops AI. AI and Humans go to war. This is bad.

"God"s plan is to wipe out both civilizations and start anew, hoping that this time the cycle doesn't repeat itself.

God's plan involves perserving a small remenant of both Humans and Cylons while at the same time destroying both cultures. Then mash them together and hope for a better result the next time.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Shryke']Why?[/quote]

Because, as has been stated repeatedly, the impact of people as advanced as the Colonials, even without any technology, on the development of the human race would be massive. Unless everyone except Hera died of rather quickly.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1734440' date='Mar 26 2009, 14.09']Because, as has been stated repeatedly, the impact of people as advanced as the Colonials, even without any technology, on the development of the human race would be massive. Unless everyone except Hera died of rather quickly.[/quote]

Then maybe that happened.

All we know is that they decided to settle on Earth and that we are their descendants, in some fashion. What happened in between is anyones guess. And pretty much irrelevant to the story.

[Kalbear]

[quote]"God"s plan is to wipe out both civilizations and start anew, hoping that this time the cycle doesn't repeat itself.

God's plan involves perserving a small remenant of both Humans and Cylons while at the same time destroying both cultures. Then mash them together and hope for a better result the next time.[/quote]Okay, so God's plan didn't work. The cylon culture is still out there, pretty much as it was 50 years ago. The human culture apparently existed enough to bring about something exactly the same as it was on Caprica, or on old Earth, or on Kobol. The 'melding' of cultures only produced humans again.

So we've got either one of two choices: either God's plan failed or that wasn't God's plan.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Kalbear']So we've got either one of two choices: either God's plan failed or that wasn't God's plan.[/quote]

No, it didn't fail, yet. See, this time around humanity created movies and TV series about the dangers of AI before activating Skynet, thus possibly breaking the cycle.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1734448' date='Mar 26 2009, 14.14']Okay, so God's plan didn't work. The cylon culture is still out there, pretty much as it was 50 years ago. The human culture apparently existed enough to bring about something exactly the same as it was on Caprica, or on old Earth, or on Kobol. The 'melding' of cultures only produced humans again.

So we've got either one of two choices: either God's plan failed or that wasn't God's plan.[/quote]

The Centurions have up and disappeared never to return. So I suppose, in some sense, Cylon culture may exist somewhere.

Cylon culture and colonial culture are both dead in the new hybrid culture (ie - us. We're all hybrids). That this hybrid culture produced something that looks alot like Colonial culture shouldn't be a surprise, since cycles and repitition are kinda of the point. The question is, as is pointed out in the last scene, will it ALL repeat itself again? Who knows. But the plan isn't to craete a perfect new culture, it's to smash the old one and restart the system and hope for a different result this time.

So the Plan worked. Will it produce the same outcome this time or will we finally braek out of the cycle? Who knows. The only point of the plan is to give it another shot, not to solve it once and for all exactly this time.

[tzanth]

[quote name='Ran' post='1734015' date='Mar 26 2009, 06.33']Eh? No chance of success. None, whatsoever. She was insane.[/quote]
Crazy as Cain was, her plan had an infinitely higher chance of success than the intentional cultural suicide that we saw in the final.

[Shryke]

[quote name='tzanth' post='1734482' date='Mar 26 2009, 14.35']Crazy as Cain was, her plan had an infinitely higher chance of success than the intentional cultural suicide that we saw in the final.[/quote]

Wait, so extinction in battle has a greater chance of success then "going back to basics" now?

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1734427' date='Mar 26 2009, 14.04']Since always. The end pretty much spells out the plan.

Humanity comes along. Develops AI. AI and Humans go to war. This is bad.

"God"s plan is to wipe out both civilizations and start anew, hoping that this time the cycle doesn't repeat itself.

God's plan involves perserving a small remenant of both Humans and Cylons while at the same time destroying both cultures. Then mash them together and hope for a better result the next time.[/quote]So God's plan is rather irrelevant for the cylons and humans? Cylons burn in the sun, while others go elsewhere. Colonial humans probably die off and don't really matter since there are already other humans living on earth. If humanity is descended from hybrids, we are so diluted as hybrids that we are effectively not hybrids. But really what is the significance of actually being a human-cylon hybrid?

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1734451' date='Mar 26 2009, 14.18']No, it didn't fail, yet. See, this time around humanity created movies and TV series about the dangers of AI before activating Skynet, thus possibly breaking the cycle.[/quote]But we know from the later films that nonetheless humanity develops Skynet.

[quote name='Shryke' post='1734466' date='Mar 26 2009, 14.26']The Centurions have up and disappeared never to return. So I suppose, in some sense, Cylon culture may exist somewhere.

Cylon culture and colonial culture are both dead in the new hybrid culture (ie - us. We're all hybrids). That this hybrid culture produced something that looks alot like Colonial culture shouldn't be a surprise, since cycles and repitition are kinda of the point. The question is, as is pointed out in the last scene, will it ALL repeat itself again? Who knows. But the plan isn't to craete a perfect new culture, it's to smash the old one and restart the system and hope for a different result this time.

[b]So the Plan worked.[/b] Will it produce the same outcome this time or will we finally braek out of the cycle? Who knows. The only point of the plan is to give it another shot, not to solve it once and for all exactly this time.[/quote]Oh, thank goodness, I am so relieved for my own continued existence.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Matrim Fox Cauthon']But we know from the later films that nonetheless humanity develops Skynet.[/quote]

Those movies are not necessarily divine prophecies (note the absence of opera houses and the fact that Arnold Schwarzenegger does not look quite like Tricia Helfer), and even if they are they are clearly not as visionary as [i]Battlestar Galactica[/i].

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1734546' date='Mar 26 2009, 15.07']Those movies are not necessarily divine prophecies (note the absence of opera houses and the fact that Arnold Schwarzenegger does not look quite like Tricia Helfer), and even if they are they are clearly not as visionary as [i]Battlestar Galactica[/i].[/quote]It's God's plan to update the vision to include an urban playground instead of an opera house.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Matrim Fox Cauthon']It's God's plan to update the vision to include an urban playground instead of an opera house.[/quote]

I wonder what that playground stands for. The Galactica's bathroom, maybe?

[tzanth]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1734488' date='Mar 26 2009, 10.37']Wait, so extinction in battle has a greater chance of success then "going back to basics" now?[/quote]

It has [b]A[/b] chance. That's better than intentionally destroying everything that makes you who you are.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Matrim Fox Cauthon' post='1734539' date='Mar 26 2009, 15.02']So God's plan is rather irrelevant for the cylons and humans?[/quote]

Why would you say that?

[alguien]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1734417' date='Mar 26 2009, 12.59']Using either Card or Herbert's ideas of culture improvement is...not a wise choice when trying to go for realism. :)[/quote]

But not a bad one going for story-telling. ;)

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Nadie']But not a bad one going for story-telling.[/quote]

You're forgetting that it's about the characters, stupid.:P

[alguien]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1734451' date='Mar 26 2009, 13.18']No, it didn't fail, yet. See, this time around humanity created movies and TV series about the dangers of AI before activating Skynet, thus possibly breaking the cycle.[/quote]

Only until the Butlerian Jihad occurs. ;)

[TrackerNeil]

I submit that if a drama has got people arguing about what God's will is, that drama has failed in terms of its overarching story. I think even RDM kinda knows this, given how vociferously he defends his "it's about the characters, stupid" stance. If the show really is about the characters there was no need for all this "you will know the truth" stuff, because, really, we never will. The truth is that God made everything happen and He works in mysterious ways. Blech. That ain't right.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1734578' date='Mar 26 2009, 15.18']Why would you say that?[/quote]Neither prior civilization is needed since humans evolved independently on Earth Prime (Hera has already been established as pointless in the grand scheme). The hybrid thesis fails since the cycles of violence obviously continued in our "hybrid" civilization, so instead of cylons going Hiroshima on colonialists, hybrid descendants go Hiroshima and Nagasaki on themselves. Hooray, the cycle has been broken! The cylons may have a plan, but it is obvious that neither God nor Ronald Moore do.