Battlestar Galactica Thread #13

[Arakasi]

[quote name='Ran' post='1740059' date='Mar 31 2009, 12.25']Yet keeping their technology appears to have meant they'd full right back into the cycle, which is another means of suicide. They're reaching for a chance to break out of it once and for all.[/quote]

See I don't understand this. The idea of the cycle is to break them free of the cycle of humans mistreating AI and causing conflicts between the machines and humans which leads to near extinction and so on. Why does getting rid of the existing societies solve this? So they're our ancestors and 150k years later we're at the present and no one knows anything of past events, or why. There is no way to know if this will break the cycle. It just reduces humanity so much that it is 150k years before mistakes can happen again. And when technology again returns to the level of being able to make AI, well since the last people who screwed up had no way to communicate to Hera's descendants I don't see how this does anything to break the cycle. It just prolongs the problem. What could have been done was a way for humans and cylons to learn how to live together in peace, which would have broke the cycle much more plausibly.

Or as this blog here sums up probably more eloquently.

[url="http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=7617"]http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=7617[/url]

[i]This ending suggests that what happened before may or may not happen again, depending upon what we do. This does raise a certain question about the wisdom of the decision to destroy their technology in hopes of breaking the cycle. All this might have done was to stop the cycle for 150,000 years. This is a long time, and if the cycle couldn’t be stopped this could be said to be of value. The question is whether other plans would have done more to break the cycle (along with leaving defenses if the toasters had ever returned).

The humanoid Cylons from the original Earth traveled to the Colonies with the hope of breaking the cycle by warning the humans against mistreatment of artificial intelligence. They arrived too late, after the toaster Cylons had begun their rebellion. Perhaps it would have been wiser to maintain their technology and culture which would have included history of what happened including warnings against repeating the same mistakes. Instead the present people of new Earth have no knowledge of these warnings–unless perhaps Ron Moore wrote Battlestar Galactica out of a species memory which was to protect us against this.

Of course rebuilding their culture along with knowledge of history to prevent the reocurrence of this cycle might not have worked. The Cylons of the original Earth also created their own culture and ultimately forgot their history. They wound up repeating the cycle and created their own Cylons which led to their destruction. This could have been used as an argument for the route they did take, but the ending might have been more satisfying if these matters had been discussed. Fortunately the show did end with plenty for us to still think about and discuss.[/i]

Edit: Aka my point is that those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. I don't see how wiping history like this does anything to ensure these mistakes don't happen again.

[Shryke]

The colonials, who'd only been 40 years from the last human-AI war, were all set to start building more AI at the start of the series. Apparently, they hadn't learned much.

The idea of the reboot is stated in the last scene. Basically, redo the experiment over and over again till it finally works right.

[Kalbear]

[quote]Yet keeping their technology appears to have meant they'd full right back into the cycle, which is another means of suicide. They're reaching for a chance to break out of it once and for all.[/quote]Err...

So the solution was to essentially commit suicide instead and let the Centurions win?

Ran, here's a question: if instead of having all the humans die out on Real Earth and having a human/cylon hybrid be the progenitor of us while centurions fly around in their base ships and real cylons are still out there, we had all humans die on Caprica and the colonies...what would be the difference?

How would that change the cycle from what we got?

I mean, God's plan was apparently to fuck over all the humans and make a crossbreed that has no discernible relevance to cylons and is totally separate from cylons, and keep the cylons around and alive. Wouldn't that have been accomplished just as easily by having the 5 fuck each other post-resurrection and wipe out all the existing humans?

God's a real fucktard.

[Arakasi]

One can argue that the Cylon war 40 years ago didn't really have the same impact because the conclusion wasn't as final or devastating. Sure there was a winner and loser, but it didn't end with the near extinction of both sides.

For a parallel on earth we can look at WW1 and WW2. In terms of life lost in battles (in Europe for example) one can argue that WW1 was nearly as devastating as WW2. (of course not so much outside of battle with WW2 having things like the Holocaust and strategic bombing). The point is that WW1 didn't really resolve things and the final outcome of that was very punitive to the losers and set things up for another war 20 years down the line. However the way WW2 went has very much been fresh in everyone's mind since and no one wants another one of those now.

We learned from the horrible events in WW2 and it has colored us since, in things like human rights and the use of nuclear weapons. Of course the memory can eventually fade (like the original cylons did on the original earth) but the point is that having memory of actual events and knowing the dangers of this is much better than being completely ignorant. If god's solution is that it is better to wipe everything and try again 150k years later on a fresh start is better than building on the experiences and knowledge of those involved (who maybe could work out some long term solution between humans and machines) than god is probably like Kalbear said a fucktard.

He should just wipe out the human race entirely at this point. Since his goal is to not repeat these mistakes it seems rather stupid to kick the ball 150k years down the road. Why doesn't he kick it a million years, or a billion years? At this point why not just wipe the universe and start over with something better than humans?

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1740087' date='Mar 31 2009, 13.46']God's a real fucktard.[/quote]Correction: "It's a real fucktard." :P

[Arakasi]

Now if there was an actual reason for why kicking things down the road will actually improve things, that would be different. Sort of like Bill Murray in Groundhog Day where his endless cycle although for the most part fruitless finally leads to him breaking the cycle. I don't see any reasoning here, other than hope that next time it will be better.

[Ran]

[quote]So the solution was to essentially commit suicide[/quote]

They didn't. We're they're descendants. To commit sucide would mean there would be no descendants.

They took a leap of faith that this was the best course among a series of poor courses left to them, because they've seen the cycle of disaster again and again and they want out. Makes perfect sense in the context of the series.

Arakasi,

[quote]He should just wipe out the human race entirely at this point. Since his goal is to not repeat these mistakes it seems rather stupid to kick the ball 150k years down the road. Why doesn't he kick it a million years, or a billion years? At this point why not just wipe the universe and start over with something better than humans?[/quote]

You're assuming "It" is God, which it may not be. You're also assuming its plans are comprehensible by us mere mortals. ;) We don't really know what it wants. Maybe it wants company, but the humans have to Uplift themselves, and they keep screwing it up. Maybe its like I.A.M., taking pleasure in this tortuous cycle, and always making sure to kick over the ant hill when they start to threaten its godhood.

We don't know, really. Neither do the characters. They just have to take it on faith that the cycle can be broken, and that the way to do this was to call a do over.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Arakasi' post='1740096' date='Mar 31 2009, 13.52']He should just wipe out the human race entirely at this point. Since his goal is to not repeat these mistakes it seems rather stupid to kick the ball 150k years down the road. Why doesn't he kick it a million years, or a billion years? [b]At this point why not just wipe the universe and start over with something better than humans?[/b][/quote]

This is essentially what "God" did though. Replaced humans (and cylons) with Hybrids and then kciked the slate clean. Let's see if they get it right this time.

Considering it's been 150k years, instead of 2k, it seems to be working ok.

[Kalbear]

[quote]\

They didn't. We're they're descendants. To commit sucide would mean there would be no descendants.[/quote]No, we're the descendants of cylons and one human. We're not the descendents of humans. And more importantly, there's no causal link between us and the humans of old.

Again, Ran - let's just have Helo be the last surviving man on Caprica. Wipe out the rest of the human race entirely if you like. If Hera's born and she's special and the only one, does it matter?

Does Hera's existence actually mean humans wouldn't have evolved on Real Earth?

[quote]They took a leap of faith that this was the best course among a series of poor courses left to them, because they've seen the cycle of disaster again and again and they want out. Makes perfect sense in the context of the series.[/quote]Right, but this was all God's Plan anyway. So it wasn't ever their decision - it was all preordained and brought about via God's messengers. They wouldn't have gotten to Earth were it not for God's creation anyway.

So let's go about another thought experiment - let's have Helo live, fuck Athena, die. Then when transporting Hera back to the Colony, the Heavy Raider gets a glitch (from God) and crashes on Earth. She then goes on to get raped by the neanderthals and produces us (which is the same ending put on in the podcast too, if you actually think about it). Cycle's broken the exact same way it was on the show. Cylons are still out there, centurions can go about their business, whatever you like.

Nothing's different, but the solution is far simpler and requires far less interaction from God than what we actually got.

So God? Kind of an idiot. Maybe there was an achievement to do it this way, some kind of Hard Mode.

[HP Loveshaft]

This is getting pretty close to the old "Does God exist" or "If God exists why do bad things happen to good people" type arguments. Trying to rationalize God, whether fictional or not, ends up pretty fruitless. One side can always go with the 'God works in mysterious ways' thing, the other side can sit there trying to poke holes in that, and the argument continues forever. Eventually some other fools start having the same argument, and the cycle continues.

Don't you see??? We need to break the cycle!

[Myrddin]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1740087' date='Mar 31 2009, 11.46']I mean, God's plan was apparently to fuck over all the humans and make a crossbreed that has no discernible relevance to cylons and is totally separate from cylons, and keep the cylons around and alive. Wouldn't that have been accomplished just as easily by having the 5 fuck each other post-resurrection and wipe out all the existing humans?[/quote]
Think of the whole show as The Flood, and Hera is Noah.

Reboot. Start again.

[Relic]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1740117' date='Mar 31 2009, 14.03']This is essentially what "God" did though. Replaced humans (and cylons) with Hybrids and then kciked the slate clean. Let's see if they get it right this time.

Considering it's been 150k years, instead of 2k, it seems to be working ok.[/quote]


except he didnt replace cylons with hybrids. the centurions left to go whereever the fuck and a bunch of the cylon models did the same, right?

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1740132' date='Mar 31 2009, 14.08']So God? Kind of an idiot. Maybe there was an achievement to do it this way, some kind of Hard Mode.[/quote]

:lol: Good one.

I finished listening to the final podcast, and it's pretty clear to me that RDM really didn't know where the series was going in any clear way. He had certain images (a bird flying around in Lee's apartment, Six walking through Times Square, etc.) but no real path to take the story to fulfill them. He tries to justify this by comparing the work of a TV writer to that of a novelist, in that the story sometimes takes shape only during the process of writing. That, of course, leaves out the important fact that a novelist can go back and edit his early material to ensure that before the reader even cracks the binding the entire work has an internal consistency. TV writers need a bit more foresight, since their early work will be "consumed" long before the ending can be written. And on that score I think RDM failed, so he introduced the supernatural in a way that IMO is not consistent with the early episodes just to wrap things up.

As I said, I like BSG in general, but I recognize that the overarching story isn't consistent and doesn't stand up to much scrutiny. Best just to enjoy the episodes for what they are and not ask questions for which the answer is merely, "Because God said so."

[Kalbear]

[quote]Think of the whole show as The Flood, and Hera is Noah.

Reboot. Start again.[/quote]And he could've done that by having Helo fuck Athena, get a baby, die, have the raider take Hera accidentally to earth, and then start again (with presumably the same gangraping from neanderthals she got from the real plan).

Has to be some hard mode. "Reboot with one Battlestar up" or something.

[Bronn Stone]

There is no reasonable definition of an omnipotent God that involves him being one to take the most straightforward method of resolving issues. Since it is empirically clear that he/she/it/Pod does not.

[tzanth]

[quote name='Ran' post='1740113' date='Mar 31 2009, 09.59']They didn't. We're they're descendants. To commit sucide would mean there would be no descendants.[/quote]

There was degree of gene flow, but it was not established in the show how important that was. It seems likely that the majority of our genetic ancestry belongs to the large population of archaic humans already on earth.

More importantly, the colonials [i]did[/i] commit cultural suicide. They rejected everything that made them who they were. Given that their occupation left no material signature, its also likely that on an[i] individual level [/i]the decision to disperse and abandon tech constituted literal suicide as well.

[Bronn Stone]

The Colonials not only succeeded in living out the remainder of their natural lives, they were the progenitors of a new civilization. I thought the implication was pretty strong that Hera's genes WERE needed to make it possible for the proto-humanoids they encountered to evolve into fully intelligent beings.

Considering how completely arsefrakked they were after the initial attack, that was a pretty remarkable achievement IMO. I don't think Dualla would have done what she did had she known how close they were.

The finale was flawed - I don't think there is anyone disputing that.
The finale was inadequately explained - I don't think there is anyone disputing that.
The finale could have been a lot better than it was - I don't think there is anyone disputing that.
The Hera plotline resolution could have been more explicitly explained by the Heads 150,000 years later - I don't think anyone could dispute that.

But I thought the Hera subplot worked. Once you put all the small pieces together. And that it turned out by being our ME, and passing along her super-powered genes, she really WAS all that important.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

[quote name='Bronn Stone' post='1740579' date='Mar 31 2009, 19.37']But I thought the Hera subplot worked. Once you put all the small pieces together. And that it turned out by being our ME, and passing along her super-powered genes, she really WAS all that important.[/quote]Until we once more go back to the relative unimportance of being the ME.

[Ran]

[quote]The finale was flawed - I don't think there is anyone disputing that....[/quote]

Err, I'd dispute all four things, with the provisio that there were some lesser flaws in the finale, but I wouldn't dub the whole thing "flawed" because of this.

[Bronn Stone]

[quote name='Matrim Fox Cauthon' post='1740639' date='Mar 31 2009, 18.01']Until we once more go back to our thick-headed stubborn refusal to recognize that the writers made it reasonably clear that it was absolutely essential to the evolution of what becomes humanity on our Earth that ME be a Cylon-Colonial Hybrid with special blood properties.[/quote]

Fixed that for ya.