Battlestar Galactica Thread #13

[Grim Shady]

[quote name='Relic' post='1731763' date='Mar 24 2009, 13.22']honestly, this debate is amusing me. I'm pretty sure no one is going to shift their stance on the finale (i know that my opinion on it is pretty firm) but i can't help and keep reading. and commenting. this could be the next ttne =P[/quote]

Yeah, it has been fun. In fact, I declare the BSG Finale discussion epic at this point. It may not have been some multi-thread flame war, but it was the first discussion in a long time that I came back to the forum looking for and eagerly gobbling up the replies. With the amount of people who participated and the fact that I haven't been this interested in a thread with most of you in a long time had me feeling like I was hiding up in the rafters looking down on the round table and Arthur's knights were having a meeting. I'm not gonna reveal who I consider to be Lancelot.

Someone should make a thread on the anniversary of the BSG Finale next year and title it, "wtf happened to Starbuck?!" or something.

[Werthead]

Some new information.

On one of the podcasts is a table reading of the final scene. This includes dialogue cut from the aired episode:



[quote][b]Head Six[/b]: Commercialism, decadence, technology run amok. Remind you of anything?

[b]Head Baltar[/b]: Take your pick. Kobol, Earth - the real Earth, before this one, Caprica before the fall.

[b]Head Six[/b]: All of this has happened before.

[b]Head Baltar[/b]: But the question remains, “Does all of this have to happen again?”

[b]Head Six[/b]: This time I bet no.

[b]Head Baltar[/b]: You know, I’ve never known you to play the optimist. Why the sudden change of heart?

[b]Head Six[/b]: Mathematics. Law of averages. Let a complex system repeat itself long enough and eventually something surprising might occur. That too is in God’s Plan.

[b]Head Baltar[/b] (whispering/growling): You know it doesn’t like that name! [i]In any case, it would have required mankind in all its flaws to have learned from its mistakes.[/i]

[b]Head Six[/b]:[i] Stranger things have happened.[/i]

[b]Head Baltar[/b]:[i] I think I’ll take that bet. What are the stakes?[/i]

[b]Head Six[/b]:[i] Hmph.[/i] (Head Six gives a look of annoyance.)

[b]Head Baltar[/b]: Silly me! Silly, silly me![/quote]

As for real constellations showing up in the show, the explanation is surprisingly mundane:


[quote]“Ok, there have been A LOT of questions about the star patterns seen on BSG. Some folks have been taking screen grabs and analyzing the constellations seen in the show, looking for clues as to where the fleet was, is and was going. I hate to burst your bubble, but it was all random. Most of our starfields were generated by a Lightwave plugin called STARPRO:

[url="http://www.maasdigital.com/starpro/"]http://www.maasdigital.com/starpro/[/url]

This is an excellent piece of software and it’s pretty much been used to generate all the stars on series like BSG, Star Trek and Firefly. You have the option of using real stars, or randomly placed points. If memory serves, the “real” stars loads by default, so we usually used that, never considering that some crazy fans might seach for clues in our backdrops!

Eventually people began to notice the easy-to-spot belt of Orion cropping up, so upon learning this we made an effort to randomize the stars a little more. As the Fleet was getting closer to Earth we went back to using real stars, but at no point were we purposely placing constellations in - or out - of view. This job is time consuming enough without having to literally worry about every dot on the screen!

That being said, next time I’m working on a show that has a starfield involved, I’ll pay closer attention. One thing all of you have taught me is that no matter what you do, SOMEONE will notice everything!”

[url="http://darthmojo.wordpress.com/2009/03/21/what-did-you-think-of-the-bsg-finale/#comment-2020"]http://darthmojo.wordpress.com/2009/03/21/...e/#comment-2020[/url][/quote]

[Ran]

By strange coincidence, Linda pointed out that it seems Stephen King's [i]The Stand[/i] seems to hit a lot of the same themes as BSG's finale, in particular with the hint of a god who might well be beyond conventional notions of good and evil (the "Wheel of Ka" concept explored, apparently, more fully in [i]The Dark Tower[/i]), and the idea that technology is a dangerous force and that it might be best to really put it aside and think about it for awhile (with an "I don't know", in the end, as to whether man will learn his lesson).

There's even a "man" character -- Sam Anders, Nick Andros, whose names both come from the Greek word for "man". Curious.

Not actually read [i]The Stand[/i], though I recall watching the miniseries. Interesting synchronicity. The last thing I noted in the Wikipedia article is that King envisioned it as a LotR-style epic quest but in a contemporary setting. In certain respect, BSG is the same sort of thing, but in a science fictional setting.

[Lord O' Bones]

I thought Ran [i]liked[/i] the finale, but now he's comparing it to [i]The Stand[/i]? I'm confused.

[Ran]

I like the finale, and I've never read [i]The Stand[/i]. Just pointing out some superficial similarities that Linda stumbled across that Wikipedia expounded on a little bit. :)

[Lord O' Bones]

[quote name='Ran' post='1733394' date='Mar 25 2009, 16.17']I like the finale, and I've never read [i]The Stand[/i]. Just pointing out some superficial similarities that Linda stumbled across that Wikipedia expounded on a little bit. :)[/quote]
I know. Many people regard The Stand as a great book with a WTF? ending pulled out of King's ass. I just found it funny.

[Shryke]

I'd say it's not the BEST comparison.

I thought the ending was good, but just not supported well enough by the rest of the series. They needed to do more to build up to them settling on Earth without technology.

[alguien]

Finally saw the finale.

I enjoyed it, some parts very much. Wasn't completely perfect but I was satisfied.

I must say that I'm surprised (well actually, not that surprised--this is the "internets" after all) by the vitriol I've read about the episode. Maybe I had low expectations, maybe I'm more comfortable than some with the use of divine intervention ( "eucatastrophe" as Tolkien might call it) in the story, but I liked it just fine. Music was brilliant. Some of the emotional send-offs at the end were very touching. I feel sorry for those that didn't enjoy it.

So, did they give up ALL their technology a la [i]The Village[/i] or did they at least keep some important stuff, such as medical, communications, weapons for hunting, etc? I mean, did they bury the Vipers and Raptors, d'ya think?

Also liked how all of this could be the foundation for what would become "our" myths. Saul as Odin, the names Hera, Athena, Apollo, Helo, etc. Galen Tyrol reminds me very much of a Wayland Smith type character. The idea could be used to explain Atlantis or the Tuatha De Danaan. (people who didn't give up their technology) Ancient weapons such as the Spear of Destiny, Nuada Silver Arm, etc. Whenever I read ancient myths, the characters seem too wonderful, too hyperbolic to be believed (I'm looking at you, Cuchulain), but to indigenous people, the Galactica folks would seem like beautiful gods and goddesses.

So yeah, overall for me, nice send off.

[SpaceChampion]

[quote name='Nadie' post='1733580' date='Mar 25 2009, 23.00']or the Tuatha De Danaan.[/quote]
With the cylons as the Fir Bolg or the Fomori?

[tzanth]

[quote name='Nadie' post='1733580' date='Mar 25 2009, 19.00']Also liked how all of this could be the foundation for what would become "our" myths. Saul as Odin, the names Hera, Athena, Apollo, Helo, etc.[/quote]

After 150000 years? Ya, right. :rolleyes:

[Ran]

I assume these are all more of a racial memory thing, rather than something directly inspired by these characters.

[The hairy bear]

But we only have Heras, Athenas, or Apollos in Greece. And only from a few centuries BC. While they landed in Tanzania 150.000 years BC... :rolleyes:

[Ran]

Like I said, racial memory that transcends time and place. For whatever reason, it crops up most purely in the Greeks I suppose.

Just like monotheism crops up among the Israelites, and "All Along the Watchtower" among counter-culture heroes of the American 60's. ;)

[tzanth]

[quote name='Ran' post='1733800' date='Mar 26 2009, 01.16']Like I said, racial memory that transcends time and place. For whatever reason, it crops up most purely in the Greeks I suppose.

Just like monotheism crops up among the Israelites, and "All Along the Watchtower" among counter-culture heroes of the American 60's. ;)[/quote]
Whole new levels of ridiculousness: QE fracking D

and what the hell is "racial memory?"

[Ran]

It's something that the influential psychologist Carl Jung posited, also known as the collective unconscious. It's something you'll also find used in a lot of SF and fantasy. ACC's brilliant [i]Childhood's End[/i], for example.

[raft]

[quote name='Ran' post='1731788' date='Mar 24 2009, 13.35']I'm not dodging or deflecting anything. I'm pointing out that the fantastic and the mythic has its own rules, and they aren't the rules of grognard hard SF. No one ought to wonder how Zeus throws down his lightning bolts. No one ought to wonder how God turns Lot's wife into a pillar of salt. No one should be wondering how it is that Kara was resurrected, no more than they should wonder how Jesus was, or Osiris, or whoever. What does Jesus do with his sacrifice and resurrection? What is the grief and the hope of Isis in the face of Osiris's death? How does Kara respond to this overwhelming destiny that pulls her from beyond the grave? These questions matter. The 0's and 1's of it, not so much.[/quote]
God resurrected Jesus, because Jesus is the Son of God, because He sent Jesus to live a life as a human being in a fallen world, because Jesus is the destined Messiah that through his selfless sacrifice on the cross redeems mankind from their original sin of eating the forbidden fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. At the end of the world Jesus will return on a white chariot to bring the faithful up to heaven with him and cast down the wicked to hell to burn on a lake of fire for all eternity.

This is one of the most powerful and influential stories in history. Not because it is "mythic" or "fantastic"--to the people who passed it down to us, there was nothing more real. But because it helps us make sense of our own lives, because it resonates with a longing for order and mystery and purpose very deep inside us. It makes us see ourselves in a different way.

And I agree with you, this is the standard by which the stories we tell must be judged.

But now you tell me--what about Starbuck's death and return and disappearance was in any way comparable with the story of Jesus, I don't mean in any superficial allegorical sense, but in the way that Jesus' death had a [i]purpose[/i], that it was an essential part of a larger mythos and narrative--the way the Jesus story [i]makes sense[/i]? What about this storyline moved you? Or was it just a gigantic waste of time with no payoff? This is a honest question. I don't know what you think.

But me, see, I'm wondering: what was the point of the whole thing? Why kill Starbuck off? Why bring her back? What would have changed if she just had head visions or dreams of Earth? What about her was so special that she had to die and be resurrected (and in a fucking Viper, no less)? I don't think you're very fairly representing us critics' position. We don't object to the inclusion of mystical and religious elements in the show; we aren't demanding a technobabble explanation for the resurrection. We don't really care HOW it happened. We just want to know WHY it did. That's the most fundamental basic question you can ask about any story. "Why did that happen?" How does this part of the story fit into that other part, how does it all connect and what's it's all mean? That's what our feeling is when we demand that a story [i]make sense[/i], that it have a coherent narrative logic.

As far as I can tell, the only way that the Starbuck death/resurrection makes sense is if we assume that the writers are totally incompetent, killed Starbuck on a whim for shock value, but did not actually have any idea what they were doing. Some may feel differently; they might think this was a valuable subplot that added a lot to the overarching narrative. But if it's the case, then I still have yet to see anyone explain why Starbuck couldn't just have had visions of Earth instead of dying. Wouldn't that have saved us all a lot of trouble? The calculus would be different if there had been some sort of ultimate payoff to the storyline which would have justified spending all that time building up the mystery of whether Starbuck was a cylon or an angel or whatever. But there wasn't. That's what I mean, at least, when I say that the show never "answered" the Starbuck question. The question it didn't answer was "what the hell was the point of this storyline?"

There are so many more examples. The Final Five fiasco. The Tigh/Six relationship. Hera. Baltar's cult. Again, I agree with you, BSG was never about all that crap, at least it wasn't supposed to be. At its best it was a story about a bunch of people unwillingly thrown together after losing everything, running for their lives and searching desperately for a new home that they can only hope is really out there, searching for a purpose and a destiny. That story had an incredibly strong start. But it became plagued by a series of very serious missteps and errors, as the writers continued to lurch in this direction and that direction aimlessly, sacrificing the core story for pointless (unfulfilled) mysteries and cheap plot twists. And finally, in the biggest disappointment of them, the great, mysterious, series-defining goal of Earth turned out to be nothing more than a stupid B-movie plot.

I suppose I had too high expectations after the wonderful first 1.5 seasons, and I shouldn't have had. But they had such a great premise and such a strong start. Imagine BSG without all the stupid crap, with a better ending that unified the stuff that came before. It could have been the best show in the history of television. That's what's so damn disappointing.

[quote]In any case, I'm spending way too much time with these posts. The lines are drawn in the sand, and I don't expect anyone's going to be crossing from one side to another. I accept there are those who dislike, and for reasons that perfectly tally with perfectly reasonable beliefs and aesthetics. I hope there are those who can accept that I and others enjoy it, for reasons that perfectly tally with equally reasonable beliefs and aesthetics.[/quote]
Yes, I'm glad that many people enjoyed it.

[denstorebog]

[quote]The Tigh/Six relationship[/quote]

For bringing this up, you must die.

Seriously, I totally see a relevance, or at least an implied relevance, to the Hera stuff. The idea of mending the rift between the races through a combined civilization, sure. The Final Five stuff - sure, why not, it lent a deal of momentum to S4, and it introduced characters from the previous cycle of destruction into this one. Yeah, I dig it.

But Tigh / Six??

:bang:

Look, if only this had been about Someone Else / Six, then I could've written it off as just another one of the series' many random soap elements. But when Tigh started copulating with Caprica Six in her cell, impregnating her no less, I remember thinking to myself: "THIS HAD BETTER GO SOMEWHERE REAL GOOD." And what did it net us? A marital drama episode and a miscarriage. A FRAKKIN' MISCARRIAGE? If this hadn't all been within the same season, I'd have thought that the miscarriage would be a sort of easy way to retcon the problem of having more than one Cylon/Human offspring, like the Cally/Hot Dog retcon, which was at least amusing. But this was supposedly all part of the same, pre-planned season 4. WHAT THE FRAK WAS THE PURPOSE OF IT ALL? It lent zero permanent character development to either of the involved parties (Tigh just went back to Ellen, even AFTER crying his love out to Caprica Six, and Caprica Six went back to Gaius). It affected the plot in NO way whatsoever.

Seriously, of all the missteps of BSG, this was the one that made me the most angry. Completely useless, implausible, unbelievable waste of time.

[alguien]

[quote name='tzanth' post='1733735' date='Mar 26 2009, 01.09']After 150000 years? Ya, right. :rolleyes:[/quote]

After reading Dune, 150,000 years seems like a horrendously short period of time, actually.

And, its a science fiction show. Such nuances could easily be explained.

[Conor]

Firstly, straight off, I am not a regular viewer of the new BSG but I have seen several episodes of each series including the last one. The ending for me just did not make sense.

However, what I wanted to say is, for me, the highlight of the episodes I did see was when Admiral Cain turned to Starbudk and laid out exactly what her plan was.

Basically, to fight the blasted Cylons and at least make an attempt at reclaiming the Colonies. That was the plan for me.

And really when you think of it, that would have been a far better plan instead of settling on prehistoric Earth and basically defeating their own civilisation. They would have been better off going out with a bang and maybe a slim chance of success ala Admiral Cain. And it would have been more exciting.

[Ran]

[quote]They would have been better off going out with a bang and maybe a slim chance of success ala Admiral Cain.[/quote]

Eh? No chance of success. None, whatsoever. She was insane.