Battlestar Galactica Thread #13

[Zahir al Daoud]

I've noticed that much criticism of characters' behavior--not just BSG but in many shows, movies, books, etc.--consists of assuming that people are rational machines that act from a readily defined self-interest. But one good hard look around you will disprove that premise pretty conclusively. We are both rational [u]and emotional[/u] beings.

The Colonists essentially had all their world-views and assumptions pretty much ripped to shreds over the course of five years. As Myrddin pointed out, after years of bare subsistence and draconian rules and artificial light/air/water/food, they found first a radioactive wasteland like the one they left behind (following a genocidal war started by robots they had invented) then a verdant, lush beautiful home where people virtually identical to themselves lived without any of the machines and devices of an advanced technological society--the same advanced tech that had become a prison.

Yeah, I totally buy that most of them would (with varying degrees of enthusiasm) accept the recommendation of those leaders who had--in the end--done what they had promised to do. Adama, Roslyn, Lee, Kara etc. had found a new home for humanity. After all the disappointments, horrors, trauma, despair and drudgery--in the end their leaders kept their word. Not only a new home, but after all they had gone through, to Colonial eyes a paradise. Those same leaders, in that rush of euphoria said "Let us throw away our guns, our light bulbs and radios, our computers and missiles and laser beams and all the paraphenalia that destroyed us not once or twice but three times already. Let us start anew."

Yeah, I can see a majority of the survivors buying that.

I can totally see why someone might disagree, especially someone who isn't really part of that experience. Methinks I would disagree. But believe that the Colonists might make the decision they did? Yeah. That I buy.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

[quote name='G'Kar' post='1743401' date='Apr 3 2009, 09.42']It appears our lord and savior [url="http://grrm.livejournal.com/"]agrees[/url] that the finale was terrible.[/quote]I'm convinced.

[Arakasi]

[quote name='Zahir al Daoud' post='1743575' date='Apr 3 2009, 10.54']I've noticed that much criticism of characters' behavior--not just BSG but in many shows, movies, books, etc.--consists of assuming that people are rational machines that act from a readily defined self-interest. But one good hard look around you will disprove that premise pretty conclusively. We are both rational [u]and emotional[/u] beings.

The Colonists essentially had all their world-views and assumptions pretty much ripped to shreds over the course of five years. As Myrddin pointed out, after years of bare subsistence and draconian rules and artificial light/air/water/food, they found first a radioactive wasteland like the one they left behind (following a genocidal war started by robots they had invented) then a verdant, lush beautiful home where people virtually identical to themselves lived without any of the machines and devices of an advanced technological society--the same advanced tech that had become a prison.

Yeah, I totally buy that most of them would (with varying degrees of enthusiasm) accept the recommendation of those leaders who had--in the end--done what they had promised to do. Adama, Roslyn, Lee, Kara etc. had found a new home for humanity. After all the disappointments, horrors, trauma, despair and drudgery--in the end their leaders kept their word. Not only a new home, but after all they had gone through, to Colonial eyes a paradise. Those same leaders, in that rush of euphoria said "Let us throw away our guns, our light bulbs and radios, our computers and missiles and laser beams and all the paraphenalia that destroyed us not once or twice but three times already. Let us start anew."

Yeah, I can see a majority of the survivors buying that.

I can totally see why someone might disagree, especially someone who isn't really part of that experience. Methinks I would disagree. But believe that the Colonists might make the decision they did? Yeah. That I buy.[/quote]

Like many have said, for 5 years the fleet couldn't agree on anything, even things where everyone should agree on. Now you expect us to believe that they would all agree to become luddites? And you say this is because we shouldn't expect people to act rationally? :rolleyes:

Your argument stinks. :P

Edit: And to address Myrradin, I would after 5 years of fighting for our lives agree that yeah there would be some rejection of technology. And yes some rejection of a lot of the other stuff, especially any space travel. But a total rejection of technology and a throwing away of your culture? No way. Personally I would have been happier with them landing in an area that got hit my a major meteorite, wiping them out that way. At least it would have been plausible.

[Derfel Cadarn]

[quote name='Arakasi' post='1743629' date='Apr 3 2009, 12.40']Like many have said, for 5 years the fleet couldn't agree on anything, even things where everyone should agree on. Now you expect us to believe that they would all agree to become luddites? And you say this is because we shouldn't expect people to act rationally? :rolleyes:

Your argument stinks. :P

Edit: And to address Myrradin, I would after 5 years of fighting for our lives agree that yeah there would be some rejection of technology. And yes some rejection of a lot of the other stuff, especially any space travel. But a total rejection of technology and a throwing away of your culture? No way. Personally I would have been happier with them landing in an area that got hit my a major meteorite, wiping them out that way. At least it would have been plausible.[/quote]

They seemed quite happy to settle on New Caprica, and I don't recall seeing much in the way of high-tech farming equipment. For all we know many of the survivors come from agricultural backgrounds. Of the colonies, all we really saw was Caprica city and it's clear Caprica was for the 'elite' of the 12 colonies. Baltar came from a farming family yet 'reinvented' himself later in life, choosing to sound and act like the elite. Okay, the gave up all their tech on 'new' Earth but I suspect they didn't have a lot of tools anyway. The fleet was made up of either ships that were in transit (which were unlikely to be stocked with colonising tools) and ships that took off from the colonies as they were attacked. I suspect the refugees were too busy running on board to stop and pick up high-tech shovels and stuff.

[Arakasi]

Someone posted a picture of New Caprica a few pages back. There were very clear signs of major irrigation (for farming). Look I can understand getting rid of their spaceships and cannibalizing them. I can see swearing off space travel, any outside contact, any technology getting close to AI/intelligent machine creation. But going luddite and just tossing it all away to live in huts? I just don't see it. If you want to see how some plausible post apocalyptic use of tech goes, play the Fallout games. They at least show how you can return to your roots while still using technology.

On the side there was obviously a high level of technological knowledge in the fleet to keep them up and operating for 5 years. They are already masters of cannibalizing stuff and improvising. There is no reason they couldn't have kept doing that on grounded ships or technology shuttled down from ships that are going to be destroyed. With the lack of attrition from being on a new planet they could start doing some mining/etc well within the time to keep their tech base.

They really could have had the best of both worlds, a fresh start on a new planet with the knowledge they've gained to keep them safe and forewarned of the dangers of AI. But they threw it all away in order to just die and make the struggles they've gone through for 5 years meaningless.

[Lord O' Bones]

[quote name='G'Kar' post='1743401' date='Apr 3 2009, 06.42']It appears our lord and savior [url="http://grrm.livejournal.com/"]agrees[/url] that the finale was terrible.[/quote]
I can't find that quote anywhere in that link.

?

Never mind. March 28 entry.

[Trebla]

[url="http://grrm.livejournal.com/80955.html"]Random Thoughts at Midnight[/url]

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='Myrddin' post='1743451' date='Apr 3 2009, 09.31']I addition to the list of events above:
Imagine all your food and drink comes from the same algae. Everything. Every day. For 5 years.
Imagine you've been breathing recycled air for 5 years.
Then imagine you find yourself on an unspoilied paradise where everything you need is right there for the picking.[/quote]

"There for the picking"? Really? I don't care how nice you think Earth is...there is no way life on that planet would be anything but a struggle for people who have given up everything but the clothes on their backs. Food must be caught or gathered on a planet where the Colonials have no idea what is edible, what is poisonous and what is dangerous, and they've given up any means to determine this other than "give it a try." Shelter must be constructed with nothing but whatever unskilled hands can gather and shape. Illness must be fought without the aid of anti-biotics. Threats from extremes of temperature must be dealt with without electricity. Earth seems much less like a paradise when you have to face it as a cave man.

[Zahir al Daoud]

The mere fact that people are using the word "Luddite" indicates they are misunderstanding the situation. Quite simply, the Colonists are not 21st century Americans (or Canadians, or whatever). Nor are they coming from the specifics of our history, but from their own. When you look at all they had been through, and what it would mean to have virtual miracles happen right in front of you, then to have the leaders who did fulfill their promises under these incredible circumstances put forth an idea--then their reaction makes sense. No way they would have done it in Season One, or Two, or Three.

And btw, people are not always rational. Sorry to disappoint, but that is the truth. Folks do things for all sorts of reasons that have little if anything to do with logic--especially as other people define it. [i]"They're not acting the way I would"[/i] is not a valid criticism of any story. Ever.

Meanwhile, I defy anyone to imagine that the Colonials would not have looked at their New Earth as a paradise. There was food to be gathered, rather than algae to be processed. Fresh air to breathe instead of endlessly re-processed gas mixtures. Elbow room instead of cramped, smelly quarters with next-to-no privacy. Instead of shipboard discipline, the potential of freedom.

Now, proceed with the gratuitous over-analysis of my post as if it were engineering schematics rather than than a piece of human communication.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Zahir al Daoud']Meanwhile, I defy anyone to imagine that the Colonials would not have looked at their New Earth as a paradise. There was food to be gathered, rather than algae to be processed.[/quote]

Plants and animals aren't just there to be "gathered" on a prehistoric earth. The plants and animals we live off these days are the results of millenia of domestication.

[Ran]

Err, of course there was food to be gathered. That's why the people who lived back then were hunter-[i]gatherers[/i]. ;)

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Ran']Err, of course there was food to be gathered. That's why the people who lived back then were hunter-[i]gatherers[/i].[/quote]

But you can't sustain large populations on that lifestyle, and it's not a very comfortable one on top of that. It just doesn't make any sense that the Colonials would consider living on Earth without their technology preferable to living there with it. As has been stated multiple times, technology doesn't just mean super computers, nukes and AI.

[Bronn Stone]

The Colonials didn't abandon ALL of their technology. Adama built himself a cabin.

[Ran]

[quote]But you can't sustain large populations on that lifestyle[/quote]

Well, yes you can, depending on what you choose to call large. You can't have large, centralized populations with that lifestyle, that's true enough.

Interestingly, I came across a Jared Diamond article the other day in which he discussed the notion that agriculture may be the worst thing to have happened to the human species.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Ran']Well, yes you can, depending on what you choose to call large. You can't have large, centralized populations with that lifestyle, that's true enough.

Interestingly, I came across a Jared Diamond article the other day in which he discussed the notion that agriculture may be the worst thing to have happened to the human species.[/quote]

You can't sustain any meaningful civilization on a hunter-gatherer lifestyle since everyone is busy looking for food. As has been said before (and probably will be said again): it makes perfect sense that the Colonials died out and didn't leave behind any cultural artifacts. It just doesn't make sense that they would choose to commit suicide in such a complicated and drawn out fashion.

[Derfel Cadarn]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1744499' date='Apr 4 2009, 04.51']But you can't sustain large populations on that lifestyle, and it's not a very comfortable one on top of that. It just doesn't make any sense that the Colonials would consider living on Earth without their technology preferable to living there with it. As has been stated multiple times, technology doesn't just mean super computers, nukes and AI.[/quote]

The colonials didn't stay in a large population, they dropped off people in different parts of the world.

[Arakasi]

[quote name='Zahir al Daoud' post='1744367' date='Apr 3 2009, 23.20']The mere fact that people are using the word "Luddite" indicates they are misunderstanding the situation. Quite simply, the Colonists are not 21st century Americans (or Canadians, or whatever). Nor are they coming from the specifics of our history, but from their own. When you look at all they had been through, and what it would mean to have virtual miracles happen right in front of you, then to have the leaders who did fulfill their promises under these incredible circumstances put forth an idea--then their reaction makes sense. No way they would have done it in Season One, or Two, or Three.

And btw, people are not always rational. Sorry to disappoint, but that is the truth. Folks do things for all sorts of reasons that have little if anything to do with logic--especially as other people define it. [i]"They're not acting the way I would"[/i] is not a valid criticism of any story. Ever.

Meanwhile, I defy anyone to imagine that the Colonials would not have looked at their New Earth as a paradise. There was food to be gathered, rather than algae to be processed. Fresh air to breathe instead of endlessly re-processed gas mixtures. Elbow room instead of cramped, smelly quarters with next-to-no privacy. Instead of shipboard discipline, the potential of freedom.

Now, proceed with the gratuitous over-analysis of my post as if it were engineering schematics rather than than a piece of human communication.[/quote]

Sorry Zahir but explaining technological abandonment and cultural suicide as "people don't act rational" when in 5 years of this show the fleet has never been to agree on anything is pretty weak. Honestly I prefer the answer god did it, because at least he wouldn't override 5 years of built behaviour by the fleet.

Really you can explain any bad plot writing by "people aren't rational". It's just a weak copout.

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='Zahir al Daoud' post='1744367' date='Apr 3 2009, 23.20']Meanwhile, I defy anyone to imagine that the Colonials would not have looked at their New Earth as a paradise. There was food to be gathered, rather than algae to be processed. Fresh air to breathe instead of endlessly re-processed gas mixtures. Elbow room instead of cramped, smelly quarters with next-to-no privacy. Instead of shipboard discipline, the potential of freedom.[/quote]

Oh, I am sure the Colonials would have viewed Earth as paradise...until of course they run out of algae provisions and have to figure out what on this new world they can safely eat. And when it rains and they have to find a cave or construct a rude shelter with their bare hands. And when it gets cold and they have to rely on fire for warmth. Or when they get sick and lack antibiotics to fight infection. Or when they die from simple injuries because they lack even the most basic medical facilities. I'm guessing that, when those things happen, Earth will seem a little less paradisical.

[AndyP]

[quote name='TrackerNeil' post='1745138' date='Apr 4 2009, 20.55']Oh, I am sure the Colonials would have viewed Earth as paradise...until of course they run out of algae provisions and have to figure out what on this new world they can safely eat. And when it rains and they have to find a cave or construct a rude shelter with their bare hands. And when it gets cold and they have to rely on fire for warmth. Or when they get sick and lack antibiotics to fight infection. Or when they die from simple injuries because they lack even the most basic medical facilities. I'm guessing that, when those things happen, Earth will seem a little less paradisical.[/quote]
TrackerNeil

All of that is irrelevant since the question is what their state of mind is when they make the decision not 6 months down the road when they realize that they have fucked up and start forming hunting parties to hunt down Lee Adama.

Zahir

That's all well and good but nothing is done to show that's the way they felt. Hey give me one shot of colonist dancing around a festives pole and I might buy it.;)

[Zahir al Daoud]

The answer is not "People are not rational" but that "People sometimes make non-rational decisions". More, I think the point has been made by myself and others that given the circumstances in the series, such a decision makes sense as something these people might have gone along with.

Most especially since we already [u]know[/u] big chunks of the survivors were very religious to start with, including most Sagitarans and Gemonese. The former were also pacifists who distrusted medicine. When New Earth is discovered, a significant part of the population had already begun turning to a new religion--and small wonder, given the fact they'd been witness to some honest-to-god [u]miracles[/u].

And it is interesting the only argument I've gotten so far against all the reasons given for the Colonials to make the choice they did consist of [i]"I would not personally make that decision so it is impossible anyone else would"[/i].