Are there any negatives to universal healthcare?

[Kalbear]

That's it. I'm tired of all of you naysayers not knowing facts about this or about what you actually pay or what the world pays. I'm done. I'm going against universal health care because I want the lot of you to fuck off and die.

I'm proposing universal sickness care. Where doctors with rusty needles fill your arm with Ebola. The cost to you is almost nothing. We'll take it out of your inheritance tax. Ebola will melt the organs and flesh of the poor and rich equally. If you like, we can have the corporations run it so that the distribution of ebola will be competitive and market-driven instead of inefficiently causing horrible bloody death.

Fuck.

[Filippa Eilhart]

in Poland, choosing private care does not preclude you from choosing state care for anything in the future. it's totally different than the UK. Like a lot of other things, it varies depending on the country.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

For comparison, I pay $253 per year through my school for the following:

Prescription Drugs

Extended Health Care

HIV Prophylaxis

Dental Benefits

Emergency Out-Of-Province/Canada

Accidental Dental Expense

Accident Ambulance Expense

Accidental Death & Dismemberment

Accidental Medical Expense

Accident Tutorial Expense

When I was in school, I paid sosmething similar.

Most of what I pay for is coverage for kids. Doesn't matter is I have 3 or 1 (or more, I guess).

My son sees a councelor 2x a month; I was going every month. That is a HUGE cost if not for the insurance. My med cost over $600 without meds, $20 with.

None of this would be covered under what you have described is covered under basic care. And these are the things that make having private insruance worthwhile. I'm not poor, but I have no extra money to pay additional taxes and then still pay for additional coverage.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

That's it. I'm tired of all of you naysayers not knowing facts about this or about what you actually pay or what the world pays. I'm done. I'm going against universal health care because I want the lot of you to fuck off and die.

I'm proposing universal sickness care. Where doctors with rusty needles fill your arm with Ebola. The cost to you is almost nothing. We'll take it out of your inheritance tax. Ebola will melt the organs and flesh of the poor and rich equally. If you like, we can have the corporations run it so that the distribution of ebola will be competitive and market-driven instead of inefficiently causing horrible bloody death.

Fuck.

Not all of us are "naysayers", some of us are trying to LEARN what the facts are, but all we can do is compare to what other contries have and then look and see how medicaid and medicare here have been handled and compare that to what we currently have.

I am glad you have blind faith that it would all work out, but I like knowing FACTS before I accept something.

[Kalbear]

None of this would be covered under what you have described is covered under basic care. And these are the things that make having private insruance worthwhile. I'm not poor, but I have no extra money to pay additional taxes and then still pay for additional coverage.

No, see, that's wrong.

Under UHC programs worldwide, kids are 100% covered for almost everything. Medical, dental, vision, counseling, all sorts of shit. All 100% covered.

Meds are covered almost 100% and tend to be cheaper because of single-pay negotiations; this is why Canada drugs are so much cheaper than US drugs for the same product. So if you were paying $600 before, 20 with insurance - it's likely you'd be paying like $3.

The thing is, Lany, you're paying $3600 a year right now for that coverage. With UHC, chances are you'd pay less than that in taxes and get better coverage for everyone AND your out of pocket expenses would be cheaper. that's how it works in other countries.

[Annelise]

Right now I pay about $300 a month for me and my son and EVERYTHING is covered, except things that would be considered "elective" surgeries. Dental, eyes, amblances, meds, shrinks, all of it.

Your policy covers 100% of the bill on all those things?

Our BC/BS policy is 80/20, our end of my husband's two visits to the rheumatologist cost us about $200 between the office visit co-pay, xrays & labwork. Annual xrays at the dentist cost us about $55.. our vision insurance isn't as good, it generally covers half the bill.

They also won't cover any of the boy's speech therapy, which is a drag - that's $472 a month. Our old insurance used to pick up 60% of it, but no such luck with this one.

[Kalbear]

I am glad you have blind faith that it would all work out, but I like knowing FACTS before I accept something.

I don't have blind faith. I have a fairly reasonable opinion based on the 20 other countries that have been able to get this to work after having private care and seeing their results. Switzerland is a great case study, because they were staunchly against it and did it only recently; it's now one of the best systems in the world.

Here's the facts, Lany:

The US is the worst 1st world nation in the world for health. By virtually every standard metric the US is worse. The US is worse than some 3rd world countries too.

For this level of health care, the US pays twice as much per person than any other country in the world.

About 1 in every 7 people in the US is either uninsured or underinsured.

The #1 cause of bankruptcy in the US is medical bills.

Psychiatric care, family planning, medicine, surgery, preventative medicine and care, emergent care are all cheaper and covered under most UHC programs. The ones that don't cover it allow for private insurance to cover the gaps.

Really, it feels like arguing with someone who doesn't want more money and to be more attractive. Why don't you want to be more attractive and have more money?

Bah. I should really just go with the Ebola plan. Maybe make it a religious thing and have the fundies screaming for the will of god to be injected into people's forebrains.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

No, see, that's wrong.

Under UHC programs worldwide, kids are 100% covered for almost everything. Medical, dental, vision, counseling, all sorts of shit. All 100% covered.

Meds are covered almost 100% and tend to be cheaper because of single-pay negotiations; this is why Canada drugs are so much cheaper than US drugs for the same product. So if you were paying $600 before, 20 with insurance - it's likely you'd be paying like $3.

The thing is, Lany, you're paying $3600 a year right now for that coverage. With UHC, chances are you'd pay less than that in taxes and get better coverage for everyone AND your out of pocket expenses would be cheaper. that's how it works in other countries.

I would love that. I would love for everyone to have that. I guess where I lose faith is in the government handling it.

I know I pay a lot for my son (for self is is only like $50 a month, and there are cheaper options I could pick) but he is the most important thing to me and he has a lot of needs, and I couldn't afford them out of pocket.

[Swordfish]

No, see, that's wrong.

Under UHC programs worldwide, kids are 100% covered for almost everything. Medical, dental, vision, counseling, all sorts of shit. All 100% covered.

Meds are covered almost 100% and tend to be cheaper because of single-pay negotiations; this is why Canada drugs are so much cheaper than US drugs for the same product. So if you were paying $600 before, 20 with insurance - it's likely you'd be paying like $3.

The thing is, Lany, you're paying $3600 a year right now for that coverage. With UHC, chances are you'd pay less than that in taxes and get better coverage for everyone AND your out of pocket expenses would be cheaper. that's how it works in other countries.

And also......... free unicorn rides, now with more magic beans!

wEWt!

[CiaranAnnrach]

I would love that. I would love for everyone to have that. I guess where I lose faith is in the government handling it.

I know I pay a lot for my son (for self is is only like $50 a month, and there are cheaper options I could pick) but he is the most important thing to me and he has a lot of needs, and I couldn't afford them out of pocket.

And again we default to the "We can't do X until we fix Y" issue, which is what I think most Americans will default to. It's not that we don't want it, or that we think it's evil, it's just we don't think it can be properly and adequately executed at this stage in our countries development. And, is that an unfair stance to take, considering if this were poorly handled, it would more than likely hurt more people than help?

[Kalbear]

And also......... free unicorn rides, now with more magic beans!

There are some problems, I will say. Some countries find that doctors simply can't afford to stay in business, and are looking to increase their rates (Japan). Some are having problems because it's so popular (Taiwan) that it costs a bit too much. Some wait lines are longer than they should be (Canada). Some have a bigger balance on private care, so the UHC isn't as pervasive (Germany).

But here's the thing - all of the above are true in each system. And in each system, they pay less money per person than the US does.

I will admit that giving the magic beans and unicorn rides might increase the cost to the point where they're paying close to what US people pay. I'm hoping that throwing in the Ebola will keep costs low.

[Jaime L]

I like when Kal gets pissed. Me and TO, we get our popcorn ready whenever that happens.

And also......... free unicorn rides, now with more magic beans!

wEWt!

Yes in the magical lands of Canada and Sweden and France and England and Ireland...oooh...they all sound so mystical...like Narnia.

[Kalbear]

If you're actually interested in a decent summary of pros/cons, the frontline special a few months back has a nice listing per country they covered.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

If you're actually interested in a decent summary of pros/cons, the frontline special a few months back has a nice listing per country they covered.

Thanks.

I'm still a little not all together today (down side to morphine ;) ) Sorry if I came off wrong.

[Aemon Stark]

When I was in school, I paid sosmething similar.

Most of what I pay for is coverage for kids. Doesn't matter is I have 3 or 1 (or more, I guess).

My son sees a councelor 2x a month; I was going every month. That is a HUGE cost if not for the insurance. My med cost over $600 without meds, $20 with.

None of this would be covered under what you have described is covered under basic care. And these are the things that make having private insruance worthwhile. I'm not poor, but I have no extra money to pay additional taxes and then still pay for additional coverage.

And that's why many Canadians have such private insurance for extended health care. It doesn't cost $300 a month, though, even for families, and is frequently a job-related benefit. As a student, I have no income, and I also no longer qualify for my parents' private family coverage. Thankfully I have provincial insurance which costs me NOTHING, and which includes ALL hospital care and in fact ALL visits to physicians. If I needed an elective surgery for, say, my knee, it would be at no cost to me. Two members of my class have had such surgeries in the past year. You pay taxes which cover all hospital and physician services, along with variable coverage for physio, dental, optical, and drugs. Private insurance covers what's left and is priced accordingly.

Now, I'm generally healthy, and I haven't been in hospital for anything but educational purposes for over five years, but I have visited my family doc or school health centre physicians on occasion. No cost to me, apart from $20 for a TB skin test last summer. I'll add that vision and dental care is provincially-insured for kids.

[aeu]

If you're actually interested in a decent summary of pros/cons, the frontline special a few months back has a nice listing per country they covered.

That was very useful, thanks.

[Annelise]

It's not that we don't want it, or that we think it's evil, it's just we don't think it can be properly and adequately executed at this stage in our countries development.

Of course, it's not even on the table at this stage in our development. The people who are wary of UHC don't burn my buns ... the people who seem to feel that health reform isn't an imperative do. Even if you don't give a fuck about the next guy, there's still excellent, non-socialist reason to address it sooner rather than putting it off until that .. dare I say, magic unicorn moment where the light bulb goes on over our collective head, we can breath a sigh of relief and say.. "Ah, finally... yes, I know that will work."

People who nix the reform that is being discussed without offering viable alternatives.. we don't have to agree how to get there but good grief, we should agree that that our present state of affairs is unacceptable. And that "won't work, won't work, won't work" non-plan of fucking torpor is similarly unacceptable.

[Lord O' Bones]

I just called your precious military, socialist, whatcha gonna do about it?!

Didn't want this to go by the wayside. It's true. For six glorious years, I had the protection of 100% socialized medicine (yes, preventative too; I got shots for fucking everything up to anthrax) and it was wonderful.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

I think a lot of us are afraid of losing benifits we currently have, and afraid of it costing us a lot more, when we don't have any money to spare.

When two of the most important things are at stake it is hard to accept that a government that had fucked up nearly every important thing can get this right.

Fear might make us reject these changes.

I like the British model, and I hope that in the future we can have something like it.

[Kalbear]

Didn't want this to go by the wayside. It's true. For six glorious years, I had the protection of 100% socialized medicine (yes, preventative too; I got shots for fucking everything up to anthrax) and it was wonderful.

Yeah, that's the weird thing. Our VA system is 100% socialized. Socialized insurance, medicine, and hospitals. Everything 100% government run. And shockingly it's far better run than the medicare system.

Lany, I think that the NHS is a bit outmoded, and a better system will have some method of introducing market competition into it in order to act as a balance. I really like the Taiwan model because it's so centralized and modern; the frontline article doesn't do it justice, it really needs to be seen. But that's the thing - all of the models out there have something good going for them, all of them do things differently, and all work much better than what the US has in every quantitative way.

Also, the government really hasn't fucked everything up. 10 years ago the government was running at a surplus, the economy was working well, reform to a large chunk of entitlement programs was happening and was working. This is the US - the country that did the amazing parks system. The highway system. The best military on the planet.

You say that we fuck up everything. I say we only fail when our vision is tainted and corrupted by those who don't care and who want failure, and our successes far outweigh our failures. If Costa Rica can have a single payer scheme, why the hell can't the US?