Judging Eye III

[Paxter]

It's not just that she perceives the Mark - it's that she views it as a 'stain'. She clearly has subjective views on its attractiveness, and it seems clear to me that she views it as ugly. In the next set of pages she talks about how she'd see Akka with the eye and how bad he'd look; she already assumes he'll look horrible via it.

Umm...Kal, have a read of the post where I summarised Kellhus' lecture on sorcery a few posts back. The mark is always a stain, it is always ugly - it is a mark of imperfection. Whenever a non-Psukhe sorcerer alters creation via magic, he is changing creation in an imperfect way - s/he cannot replicate creation so that it is as perfect as when the God created it. So whenever the Few observe someone else's mark, it is always ugly - this is not unique to Mimara.

That's part of it. There's also no evidence to support that Men can change the objective reality via belief. There's no evidence that would suggest that belief has any power whatsoever. There's plenty of evidence that Kellhus is a huge liar and manipulator, and will tell anyone exactly what they want to hear to get what he wants; think about what he told Esmi after her manipulation from the Consult, for instance. We have no evidence that Inri was able to change the objective reality. Or Fane. Or the Nonmen.

I don't disagree with you on this point Kal. I was just saying that you can't go around saying that Akka and Cleric being damned is conclusive evidence that perceived damnation =/= actual damnation.

And if that's all true - isn't it insanely stupid that the Consult tried to kill the nonmen instead of wiping out Men?

The Consult are trying to wipe out men. That's what the No-God is for.

It's still way more likely that Kellhus is a liar and that the objective reality isn't changeable.

I agree. As you might have been able to tell when I was debating this with Happy Ent several posts ago, I am far from convinced that the "perceived damnation = actual damnation" theory holds. But I won't discount it completely until the text compels me to.

Edit: I got my "=" signs mixed up.

[Paxter]

A confession:

A couple of pages ago I tried to draw an analogy between Shaeonanra's discovery of a way to save sorcerers' souls and Kellhus' claim of having saved the souls of sorcerers that align themselves with him. The argument was that maybe the two discoveries both involve/d bringing about the No-God/sealing the world from the outside.

Well, that argument was completely wrong. Because I just looked up Shaeonanra in the TTT encyclopaedia and it turns out that his method of salvation had nothing to do with the No-God. Apparently, he was in the business of soul-trapping: binding your soul to an object/thing in order to avoid passage to the Outside. Allegedly, his methods were quite successful as his soul continues to live on some 3000 years after the "soul-trapping", albeit in an "obscene and unnatural manner".

So, yeah, I was completely on the wrong track earlier. Although I will say that the whole "soul-trapping" thing is a pretty interesting way of avoiding damnation.

[lokisnow]

A confession:

A couple of pages ago I tried to draw an analogy between Shaeonanra's discovery of a way to save sorcerers' souls and Kellhus' claim of having saved the souls of sorcerers that align themselves with him. The argument was that maybe the two discoveries both involve/d bringing about the No-God/sealing the world from the outside.

Well, that argument was completely wrong. Because I just looked up Shaeonanra in the TTT encyclopaedia and it turns out that his method of salvation had nothing to do with the No-God. Apparently, he was in the business of soul-trapping: binding your soul to an object/thing in order to avoid passage to the Outside. Allegedly, his methods were quite successful as his soul continues to live on some 3000 years after the "soul-trapping", albeit in an "obscene and unnatural manner".

So, yeah, I was completely on the wrong track earlier. Although I will say that the whole "soul-trapping" thing is a pretty interesting way of avoiding damnation.

To which I will again reiterate, no one has paid attention to how important Swazond could be. The way Cnaiur describes them could fit in very well with Shaeonanra's soul trapping. Why exactly did the Scylvendie worship the No God and fight alongside him? Just because of war? seems sort of simple, especially if they were not having babies like everyone else. But if the No God (and Shaeonanra, perhaps) gave them a way to have babies by reincarnating souls trapped by their swazond into their children they may have been able to have live births during the no God's reign. then the No God's success would mean the people would inherit the earth because only they were clever enough to survive. the world would still be sealed from outside. the souls of those killed and trapped by the swazond don't return outside, and babies/fetuses get souls from the swazond rather than from the outside.

Additional thought, was Shaeonanra the original No-God then? and soul trapping sounds very horcruxy to me. :)

[Paxter]

Additional thought, was Shaeonanra the original No-God then?

I doubt it. From what we have seen, the No-God has no idea what it is. In contrast, I would imagine that Shaeonanra retained some sense of self following the soul-trapping. His existence is described as "obscene and unnatural", but that doesn't imply that he hasn't got a sense of who he is.

[Borque]

Additional thought, was Shaeonanra the original No-God then?

I don't think so, but in the light of this it seems the No-God could be a huge soul trap with Shae involved in the design. Trapping every soul on it's way to and/or from the outside.

The questions ("What do you see", etc) do make sense in that context - I can imagine souls trapped within some kind of vehicle they aren't familiar with asking just those questions.

[Paxter]

Do we know anything else about Nin after the wars from the appendix or does he just kind of disappear from the scene?

I think he just disappears from the scene. But I'll try and do some more digging next week. I'm supposed to be studying for exams right now, so I probably shouldn't be spending time poring over the TTT encyclopaedia ;).

[lokisnow]

question, when the no-god took the field, what did he do? did he inspire terror. Crush people beneath his might carapace, just hang out all invulnerable while opposing armies broke against him like water against a rock?

Did he attack, or was he just there? what did he attack with?

I doubt it. From what we have seen, the No-God has no idea what it is. In contrast, I would imagine that Shaeonanra retained some sense of self following the soul-trapping. His existence is described as "obscene and unnatural", but that doesn't imply that he hasn't got a sense of who he is.

Nor does it imply he has got a sense of who he is.

[Happy Ent]

On Judging Eye II I speculated that the skills of the No-God are:

Strike Terror +10

Womb Rot (no save)

Sranc Control

[lokisnow]

I've always thought Kellhus was a quite a bit like Leto II, but it suddenly occured to me that of course he's like Leto II

Golden Path = Thousandfold Thought

assuming godhood in order to save humanity from an unseen threat, and to save it from itself.

Also sheds some light on the White Luck Warrior, and why Kellhus, even if aware of the threat may allow it, because boredom sets in with omniscience and having something that can surprise him will be something he will (perhaps weakly) value.

I'm now thinking that Kellhus will die / be slain in attempting to open Golgotteranth (or he becomes the No God, like Leto becoming the worm) and it may result in another twenty year break between series (the Second Apocalypse), but his death may be the key catalyst that unlocks the right sequence of events wherein humanity survives the Consult.

Also, little Kel seems to me to be shaping up like St. Alia of the Knife. :D

Anyways, now I think I will reread God Emperor of Dune after I finish my reread of PoN and before I reread Judging Eye.

[lokisnow]

well no, not sarcastic. but it's Dune, and the main reason I kept reading Prince of Nothing was because, "oh it's so very much like Dune, this is fun."

And anyway, not many people like God Emperor of Dune because its so dense (to the point of being obtuse) and Leto has transformed into something almost monstrous in taking on Godhood.

But in any event, further spoilers for dune:

SPOILER: Children of Dune, God Emperor of Dune

In thinking of the No God, and how one becomes the No God (think of the carapace, as an assemblage of synthese perhaps?). I'm wondering if Kellhus will attempt to merge with a synthese, or dozens of little synthese, like Leto II merging with the Sand Trout, and in essence that could lead to Kellhus becoming the No God. Or something monstrous. I could imagine Kellhus attempting such a thing, presuming he would be able to dominate it. But in a way he's being set up to fail, and I could see him being overwhelmed or dominated by such an attempt at fusion. He would be almost impossibly powerful with tekne synthese as well. I could see Kellhus doing such a thing in order to wage a campaign on the outside, after being unable to defeat them himself. Perhaps the only way to save himself from damnation is to kill the other gods and become god himself?

I mean Kellhus=Leto II seems even more plausible all of a sudden. Moenghus, the blind prophet in the desert, given his death by his own son who has come to surpass him in everyway. sounds like Paul and Leto II to me.

(OH SHIT, random thought, what if the chorae on the carapace are not there to protect the No God from destruction by sorcerers but to keep the No God in the carapace and protect the Consult from him? Are the chorae being used to imprison? Could they in fact be acting as locks on a gate inside the carapace? Could that be a big part of the no God? a movable, mechanical portal to the outside? And the Chorae are part of keeping the gate closed as Mimara seems to have discovered was one of their original functions?)

[Happy Ent]

Over at the Three Seas Forum, Thorsten has a new contribution up about the Metaphysics of Eärwa in light of what has been revealed in Judging Eye. As usual, this is solid stuff and well presented, so take a gander.

(His understanding of these things is well aligned with mine. But he has certainly thought a lot harder about, in particular, the nature of Chorae.)

[Happy Ent]

To expand on my previous message, I am becoming increasingly unsure about the relationship between the Outside and the God. Let me put it as a direction question to this board:

Assume there are two “places†(in some metaphysical sense) in Bakker’s creation: here and the Outside. By “here†I mean: where the story takes place. Trees, wizards, buildings, but also magical creations such as burning sparrows. Topoi are areas where these two places intersect, but otherwise they are different.

Question: Where is the Onta (whatever that means)? Where is the God (whatever “the God†means)?

[Paxter]

To expand on my previous message, I am becoming increasingly unsure about the relationship between the Outside and the God. Let me put it as a direction question to this board:

Assume there are two “places†(in some metaphysical sense) in Bakker’s creation: here and the Outside. By “here†I mean: where the story takes place. Trees, wizards, buildings, but also magical creations such as burning sparrows. Topoi are areas where these two places intersect, but otherwise they are different.

Question: Where is the Onta (whatever that means)? Where is the God (whatever “the God†means)?

I actually think there are more than two places - there is the World and there are the many regions of the Outside - "spheres of dominance" which yield to subjective desire and are controlled by Gods and demons (actually I don't think this - Ajencis does - look up "Outside" in the the TTT glossary). The God, then, is the sum total of all of the regions of the Outside (as per Inrithism - Hundred Gods are aspects of the God).

My understanding then is that the God/the sum total of the regions of the Outside can intersect with the World in three main ways:

1) Topoi

2) People (the God is "behind everyone's face" - as per Kellhus' sermon about sorcery)

3) Magic (Individual people are able to "see with God's eyes" (i.e. see the world through many sets of eyes - and thus can better appreciate and actually alter creation).

Note that this third item is an indirect way in which the God intersects with the world - magic can occur because sorcerers mimic/imitate the God.

[Kalbear]

On a reread, a couple things on The Judging Eye and damnation have become clear. For starters, it's clear that Mimara did see other sorcerers and did see them as being less. She accepts (and states) that she is proof of Kellhus' lie.

The other thing is that there's more to the Judging Eye than meets the...eye. Akka when explaining it to Mimara states some really odd phrases in his internal dialogue that seem to indicate he's lying to her about it in the same way he's lying about Sauglish:

"' Your stepfather...Kellhus.'

He had improvised this, not willing to stray too far into the truth. But once spoken it seemed every bit as true and far more terrible with significance."

"...and with the heat of truths drawn intact from the crucible of deception".

"Let her think it was this, he told himself. Perhaps it would even serve to...discourage her. "

Her statement makes it clear she's seen others and they all seem to be the same:

"I mean, I read and I read, everything I could find about sorcery and the Mark. And nowhere, not once, was there any mention of what I see."

I wonder what Akka's hiding from her?

[Paxter]

A little off topic but back to Nin'janjin...

I find it a bit curious that he is such a key part of the downfall of the Nonmen yet he does not have his own entry in the TTT appendix.

Also, there appears to be an inconsistency regarding Nonmen kings in the TTT appendix. Specifically, Nin-Ciljiras is categorically mentioned as the last surviving Nonman king. But then, you go to Nil'giccas' entry and there is no record of his death and he is described as the Nonman king of Ishterebinth. And of course, there is no record Nin'janjin's death, and he was also a Nonman king (albeit a traitor who sided with the Inchoroi). So what's going on here? Is Nin-Cilijiras really the last surviving Nonman king? Or is RSB just toying with us?

[Maia]

His rival Cu'jara Cinmoi could also be blamed since he accepted the Inchoroi's offer but it would never have come without Nin'janjin's help as I understand it.

IMHO, it is quite likely that Nin'janjin didn't really understand the scope of the threat. He probably thought that only Cu'jara Cinmoi and (some of) his people would be killed, rather than that his whole species would be doomed to extinction.

What I wonder about is that the Nonmen sorcerers seemingly didn't worry about damnation before their fall. Yet surely they knew about the Outside as much or more as/than humans? So, did something change for them once humans became dominant?

[Happy Ent]

What I wonder about is that the Nonmen sorcerers seemingly didn't worry about damnation before their fall. Yet surely they knew about the Outside as much or more as/than humans? So, did something change for them once humans became dominant?

Yes. According to my understanding of the methaphysics, the Nonmen were not damned before Year 0, the arrival of Angeshraël. At that time, morality would have been determined by the Nonmen and their Emwama slaves. The former had no reason to damn themselves, and the latter – I argue – lacked the unity of spiritual purpose, and likely also the numbers, to accomplish the thousandfold thought required to shape the fabric of morality.

But with the arrival of the four tribes of men, the Tusk became the dominant spiritual force, thereby shaping the reality of damnation according to Angashraël’s doctrine. This, logically, involved damnation of their military foe and his weapon: the Nonmen and sorcery.

--

As far as I understand, this is interestingly different from the Inchoroi’s relationship to damnation. They were damned as soon as they arrived (because the Nonmen damned them, being repelled by their obscene aspect, etc.), but were oblivious to this because of their ignorance of the Outside. So, to make this ridiculously clear (in order to give us something to argue about, not because I’m really settled in my understanding of this):

1. Inchoroi = damned from their arrival and onward, via Nonman referendum, but don’t know it before <insert year>.

2. Nonmen = not damned before year 0. Then damned by human referendum, know this all the time.

[Paxter]

1. Inchoroi = damned from their arrival and onward, via Nonman referendum, but don’t know it before <insert year>.

2. Nonmen = not damned before year 0. Then damned by human referendum, know this all the time.

If this is true, couldn't the Inchoroi have saved themselves by granting immortality to all Nonmen (including women) in exchange for a change in Nonmen beliefs (a change that would result in Inchoroi salvation)?

Or am I perhaps simplifying just how hard it is to bring about a change in beliefs?

[Happy Ent]

If this is true, couldn't the Inchoroi have saved themselves by granting immortality to all Nonmen (including women) in exchange for a change in Nonmen beliefs (a change that would result in Inchoroi salvation)?

That would follow.

1. We don’t know that this is not what they tried.

2. I have no idea when the Inchoroi realised the reality of the Outside and damnation. In particular, I have no reason to believe that they realised it at the time of the Womb Plague. Remember: Cû’jara-Cinmoi attacks the Inchoroi in retaliation to the plague, walking into a trap when his army is beset on all sides by creatures not encountered before. Sranc. Bashrag. Wracu. All constructs of the techne. I take that as strong indication that at that time, the Inchoroi did not yet dabble in sorcery. On the contrary – their mastery of the techne was at its apex. At this point in time, I understand them much as Dûnyain: rational masters of circumstance. Not sorcerers. If anybody can dig up the earliest known reference to a sorcery-using Inchoroi, I’d be grateful. As far as I understand, this happens not in the First Age.

Or am I perhaps simplifying just how hard it is to bring about a change in beliefs?

One needs to grasp the Thousandfold Thought. That’s what Kellhus is doing. I don’t know if the obscene rape monsters would have had such an easy time, since they lack the leonine countenance that effortlessly catches the reflections of sunlight in his braided beard. Also, they’re obscene rape monsters.

[sologdin]

they’re obscene rape monsters.

i can't wait until a future book in the series reveals that they are arboreal.

that future book will likely feature, instead of the glanton gang doing moria, the marquis de sade doing the siege of isengard, wherein our propehsied wood-fuck-warriors attack the last bastion of moral celery in the three seas, which is of course the stronhold of ishual, wherein they proceed to insert without consent their gnarled treenises into the unlubricated orifices of newly repentent dunyain, for no reason except gratuitious depiction of sexual offenses, after vanquishing them on the field of battle.

at least, that's what a little synthese told me.