Judging Eye III

[Happy Ent]

sologdin - Fantastic. Was that a challenge to Happy Ent? That's how I took it. You can't take posts like that from solo sitting down Happy Ent. What say you?

Believe me, I’ve wasted most of the afternoon typing responses to solo, only to delete them. Not funny enough. Maybe I need to drink more.

[delete this account pls]

Like Trisk, I can't remember any instance of an Inchoroi using sorcery, except for what Aurang does in the text. It's even possible that the Inchoroi in their natural state don't possess the Gift of the Few at all, but that they constructed their Synthese to do it instead.

Do dragons use sorcery, or am I just getting Wracu confused with Erikson's lizards?

But isn't that beside the point? The Inchoroi would be damned due to their other actions rather than their use of sorcery, I'd think.

[Happy Ent]

But isn't that beside the point? The Inchoroi would be damned due to their other actions rather than their use of sorcery, I'd think.

The question was: at what point do the Inchoroi realise that they are damned, that the Outside exists, etc. I argue that they aren’t very proficient in these matters, and may have easily lived in complete ignorance of the metaphysics of Eärwa for a long, long time. Now, with the Consult, they are of course very aware of the Outside and of their damnation. That is why they try to destroy all living souls, have created the No-God, etc. Bu at the time of the Womb Plague?

[anor277]

Like Trisk, I can't remember any instance of an Inchoroi using sorcery, except for what Aurang does in the text. It's even possible that the Inchoroi in their natural state don't possess the Gift of the Few at all, but that they constructed their Synthese to do it instead.

The only other surviving Inchoroi, Aurax, Aurang's "brother", utilized sorcery also. I admit that sorcery might be a bit superfluous in the days when the Inchoroi had gigawatt lasers.

.....at what point do the Inchoroi realise that they are damned, that the Outside exists, etc. I argue that they aren’t very proficient in these matters, and may have easily lived in complete ignorance of the metaphysics of Eärwa for a long, long time. Now, with the Consult, they are of course very aware of the Outside and of their damnation. That is why they try to destroy all living souls, have created the No-God, etc. Bu at the time of the Womb Plague?

.......Ah, but the womb plague served the same purpose as the spate of still-births that the No-God caused. The womb plague disrupted the cycle of souls, by denying birth as the No-God did later. This may, perhaps, at least sealed the world off in respect of Non-Man metaphysics; of course, the surviving Non-men ensured that the Inchoroi did not enjoy this victory.

[Maia]

Now, with the Consult, they are of course very aware of the Outside and of their damnation. That is why they try to destroy all living souls, have created the No-God, etc. Bu at the time of the Womb Plague?

Well, it seems to me that Inchoroi must have been convinced of their damnation when they caused the Womb Plague. Otherwise, why bother? In fact, their damnation may have been the reason why they came to Eärwa in the first place - a primitive planet may have been easier to seal against the Outside from their POV.

OTOH, they were caught completely by surprise by the Nonmen's use of sorcery, so they were ignorant of it and thus probably lacked the tools to really learn to know the ins and outs of the Outside. It is plausible that they may have missed stuff and once they learned to use sorcery (if that's what A&A used) they could have been far too set in their ways (or not intelligent enough) to re-think their approach.

It did seem to me, however, that Nonmen generally had no concept of damnation, not just for sorcery, before their fall. And they certainly knew a lot about the Outside. Hm...

Wouldn't it be funny if the Inchoroi were the ones who brought the very possibility of damnation to Eärwa? Personally, I am fairly sure that they very strongly influenced the teachings of the Tusk, if not outright dictated them.

[Jon AS]

Personally, I am fairly sure that they very strongly influenced the teachings of the Tusk, if not outright dictated them.

But the Inchoroi were hanging out in Golgotterath in the far north west of Eärwa while the Tusk was written on the eastern side of the Great Kayarsus (it ends with the "Breaking of the Gates"). Do you think Aurang and Aurax secretly travelled east to enlist the five tribes of men to help them wipe out the Nonmen? Actually, that sounds almost plausible. :leaving:

It was always my impression that the Inchoroi were unaware of the Outside and it's consequences and uses when they crashed.

[Happy Ent]

Well, it seems to me that Inchoroi must have been convinced of their damnation when they caused the Womb Plague. Otherwise, why bother?

But it could have been a mistake.

From the timeline:

The Second Watch was disbanded and the Inchoroi moved freely among the Cûnuroi of Siöl, becoming their physicians. They ministered to all, dispensing the remedies that would at once make the Nonmen immortal and doom them. Soon all the Cûnuroi of Eärwa, even those who had initially questioned Cû’jara-Cinmoi’s wisdom, had succumbed to the Inchoroi and their nostrums.

According to the Isûphiryas, the first victim of the Womb-Plague was Hanalinqû, Cû’jara-Cinmoi’s legendary wife. The chronicler actually praises the diligence and skill of the High King’s Inchoroi physicians. But as the Womb-Plague killed more and more Cûnuroi women, this praise becomes condemnation. Soon all the women of the Cûnuroi, wives and maidens both, were dying. The Inchoroi fled the Mansions, returning to their ruined vessel.

This does not sound to me as if the Inchoroi actually tried to kill all the women. Why stick around for so long? Why use diligence and skill? And only when everybody is convinced that all the Nonwomen are really beyond the skill of the Inchoroi, then flee?

Just for the thrill?

Moreover, to echo one of your earlier concerns: why not kill everybody in the first place? Nonwomen, Nonmen, Nonchildren, Nonpets?

--

So try this one on. (I’m speculating wildly and spontaneously. Shoot it down.) The Inchoroi actually wanted to help the Nonmen and give them immortality. This may or may not be motivated by their desire to not be damned any more. I don’t know. It would certainly suffice for earning the Nonmen’s undying (!) gratitude.

Now, for reasons that belong to the realm of bio-scifi, immortality is not an easy thing to grant. Even for a space-travelling race like the Inchoroi, even for a race that stands to strong in the techne. Skin shrivels, fused teeth fall out, flesh decomposes – it’s hard. Add to this metaphysical complications stemming from the circle of souls, which don’t even apply in our world.

So I claim that whatever the Inchoroi tried to do, it just didn’t work. In particular, it killed all the Nonwomen. I would prefer a metaphysical explanation, because the female womb must be connected to the Outside in some special way, since it facilitates the entry of a new soul. That might be particularly hard to “fixâ€. Alternatively, some explanation using female biology and technobabble.

“Aurang to Scotty. Report.†“The menstrual cycles are like noothin’ oi’ve ever seen, Cap’n!†“Increase tachyon density on uteral radiation.†“Oi’m givin’ i’all she’s got, Cap’n. They’ll blow up!â€

Only at the last minute do the Inchoroi admit defeat and flee back to the Enterprise with all speed.

(Where a huge army of techne constructs awaits the pursuers. This is at variance with my explanation and fits better a scenario where the womb plague was deliberate. Still – why not kill everybody in the first place?)

[Jon AS]

Still - why not kill everybody in the first place?

Incompetence? Here is another quote about the Womb-Plague, from the Glossary entry about Nonmen:

"The Nonmen did indeed achieve immortality, and the Inchoroi, claiming their work done, retired back to the Incû-Holoinas. The plague struck shortly after, almost killing males and uniformly killing all females."

Don't really know how to reconcile the two different accounts, but maybe the Inchoroi deliberately infected some Nonmen (Cû'jara-Cinmoi's wife among them), then retired, then nonpeople started to fall ill in large numbers.

[Happy Ent]

"The Nonmen did indeed achieve immortality, and the Inchoroi, claiming their work done, retired back to the Incû-Holoinas. The plague struck shortly after, almost killing males and uniformly killing all females."

Ah. So the narrative traditions differ. It’s a smörgåsbord of crackpottery!

[Maia]

But the Inchoroi were hanging out in Golgotterath in the far north west of Eärwa while the Tusk was written on the eastern side of the Great Kayarsus (it ends with the "Breaking of the Gates").

Now, now, are you saying that Inchoroi had a spaceship and all manner of hi-tech weapons, but helicopters would be totally out of question for them? Not to mention that some of them could fly in their natural (?) state IIRC.

And yes, something like a "flaming bush" episode would be trivially easy for Inchoroi to arrange.

Re: the Womb Plague, the only argument speaking for it not being intentional is that apparently nothing was done to exterminate the humans at the same time, which seems strange. Surely the humans provided as many (or more) openings from the Outside to the whole planet as the Nonmen? And killing humans with disease is relatively trivial, as we all know.

BTW, I wonder what made the Nonmen Queen "legendary"? IIRC, it is the only time she is mentioned, which is just odd.

[Kalbear]

What doesn't make sense from the unintentional womb plague PoV is that the Inchoroi had Wracu, Bashrag and Sranc hordes at the ready as soon as the Nonmen moved against them. If they hadn't been thinking that it was a weapon, they wouldn't have needed an army. That part seems really off to me.

I'll be...disappointed if HE's view of how the Outside works is true. If RSB is basically going with a fairly standard fantastical trope - that belief makes real - instead of the more interesting 'God is real, and he's a douchebag', it's kind of a letdown for me.

On a sidenote, HE, Mimara does indicate that she has seen other sorcerers than Cleric and Akka with the Judging Eye, and they looked similarly damned. And these were ones in the Andiamine heights. Again, sure, they could have been damned for eating shrimp or cheating on their non-wives or whatever, but chances are that all sorcerers are damned, Kellhus is lying, and belief doesn't make real.

At least I hope so.

My personal view is that the Nonmen understood better the relationship between the Outside and the normal world, but that was just it - knowledge, not belief. They had gotten to the enlightenment age of physics, compared to man's version of pre-algebra and non-newtonian mechanics. They understand about how certain people must guard. They understood that the sorcerers with the gift of the Few had a duty, and they were willing to make them their sacrifice to fulfill that duty - to have them guard the gates as Mimara does. The Inchoroi learned of their damnation through their contact with Nin'janjin and were convinced of this not by belief, but by a rationed explanation and experimental evidence. What else would a spacefaring race believe in?

I think at the time they didn't think Men were important enough to kill (when doing the womb plague). Their goal was the Nonmen, because they held the true key to the Outside AND were the only force in the world that could reasonably stop them.

[Happy Ent]

If RSB is basically going with a fairly standard fantastical trope - that belief makes real - instead of the more interesting 'God is real, and he's a douchebag', it's kind of a letdown for me.

Two comments:

1) I of course think that the God is very real indeed, so there is no contradiction. And if the cult or Döchbág has enough followers to grasp the Thousandfold Thought (badgers with souls would suffice), then he is a douchebag. The reality of the God is a lot more objective than the reality of a sorcerous creation such as a burning sparrow. That, too, is a lie, much like what Kellhus is doing, but uttered with sufficient conviction to be objective reality, albeit badly photoshopped. The reality that Kellhus brings about is also based on a lie, but its modification of objective reality is a lot more perfect, because it uses the same method as the God did. In fact, it is indistinguishable from the God. It is God’s work, because (I claim) that this is exactly how the God works. Thorsten calls this a super-consciousness.

2) Extra-narrative perspective: “That belief makes real†is indeed a standard trope, central to the epistemology of Disney, for example: “if you just keep believing†etc. We know from RSB’s interviews that he actively detests this trope. He is, in Real Life, very concerned about teaching this trope to our children, because it is not true. It is a theme that permeates all the output we’ve seen from him, including Neuropath.

In Real Life, as in Neuropath, the Argument is true. That is basically the doctrine of Ishuäl: we are ruled by circumstance, our emotions betray us, and reality is not shaped by faith. We know that Bakker does not particular like the Argument, but fears that it is true.

Now he has set out to construct a fantasy universe. I posit that he intentionally uses one whose metaphysics differ from Real Life in this, particularly central, aspect. It’s the authors ultimate “what-if†construction, focussing on exactly the question that we know is closest to him. Thus, in Bakker’s fictional world, the Disney trope does hold true. The Argument is false. God exists. Pigs can fly. Women are inferior. And the power of Faith knows no boundaries – it can shape reality: in its weakest form as sorcery, in its strongest form as Thousandfold Thought. In particular, the Outside is pretty easy to manipulate (being, according to Ajencis, the realm that most easily succumbs to belief), so we must assume that the effect of belief on the Outside is a lot stronger than the very visible effects that we can see in “the Insideâ€: sorcery, halos, etc. Hence, issues like damnation or the nature of the god would be malleable by belief.

[Kalbear]

1) I of course think that the God is very real indeed, so there is no contradiction. And if the cult or Döchbág has enough followers to grasp the Thousandfold Thought (badgers with souls would suffice), then he is a douchebag. The reality of the God is a lot more objective than the reality of a sorcerous creation such as a burning sparrow. That, too, is a lie, much like what Kellhus is doing, but uttered with sufficient conviction to be objective reality, albeit badly photoshopped. The reality that Kellhus brings about is also based on a lie, but its modification of objective reality is a lot more perfect, because it uses the same method as the God did. In fact, it is indistinguishable from the God. It is God’s work, because (I claim) that this is exactly how the God works. Thorsten calls this a super-consciousness.

Okay, we'll get more specific since you seem to want to misinterpret what I meant.

There is a very real difference between humans being able to essentially mold the Outside based on their beliefs and human belief having no power over the Outside. Heck, there's even a difference between God being a douchebag and the universe's rules being such that God's not a douchebag or anything like that; God's just trying to be a caretaker in a really shitty universe.

And to be clear, I don't really care whether God's a dick or not. That's not the interesting thing in my mind. The mechanics of how God became a dick isn't really important to me either. It's a total non-issue for me. What is an issue is the actual metaphysics of the world, and it comes down to a few things.

So there are three possibilities to me:

1) Things with souls shape the Outside. This is the 'belief makes real' part, and it's a boring trope of tons of fantasy and (as you say) disney movies.

2) Things with souls shape nothing, but there's an actual entity that DOES shape things. In which case, things with souls might make good arguments or whatever. This would be the Preacher-like idea, that God is a real douchebag. More interesting, but still done quite often.

3) Things with souls shape nothing. There's an actual entity that is more powerful, but still can't change things. The metaphysics of the world are immovable and unchangeable; while you can get better at manipulating those metaphysics, you can never actually change them. This is more interesting to me - a scientific basis to a world of God, where even God must hold true to the universe. If you like, God can be created by the belief of the Souled, but it still doesn't change that people are damned for certain things, that women are spiritually inferior to men, etc. That's something I've not seen before, and I think it'd be an interesting step.

[Maia]

What doesn't make sense from the unintentional womb plague PoV is that the Inchoroi had Wracu, Bashrag and Sranc hordes at the ready as soon as the Nonmen moved against them.

Good point. Looks like the Womb Plague was intentional, after all.

The Inchoroi learned of their damnation through their contact with Nin'janjin and were convinced of this not by belief, but by a rationed explanation and experimental evidence.

But there is no evidence that the Nonmen had any conception of damnation at their height. Yes, Cleric thinks about damnation _now_ - but that is now. From what he says about original Nonmen beliefs - damnation had no part in them.

I think at the time they didn't think Men were important enough to kill (when doing the womb plague).

Eh, but being souled is enough to create connection to the Outside and damn the Inchoroi. It doesn't matter that humans were primitive - they were souled and they were numerous, so certainly every bit as much of an obstacle as the Nonmen.

Less dangerous - yes. Which is why it would have made sense to wipe them out first.

Their goal was the Nonmen, because they held the true key to the Outside AND were the only force in the world that could reasonably stop them.

Well, if the Nonmen had a "key" to the Outside and they didn't believe in their own damnation as a species or for sorcery, then something must have changed for them, no?

And of course, if Inchoroi were worried about the Nonmen stopping them, then the Womb Plague was a truely epic screwup.

[Happy Ent]

Okay, we'll get more specific since you seem to want to misinterpret what I meant.

Kal, I hope our wires didn’t get crossed here. My understanding of these things is far from finished; I’m just firing off ideas, and trying to put different interpretations up against each other. I very much enjoy reading yours (and Maia’s for that sake.)

[Kalbear]

But there is no evidence that the Nonmen had any conception of damnation at their height. Yes, Cleric thinks about damnation _now_ - but that is now. From what he says about original Nonmen beliefs - damnation had no part in them.

The nonman king disagrees:

"Damnation, Cousin. How? How could we forget?"

If they have no concept of damnation, how could they forget damnation?

Actually, the whole speech is interesting:

"They called us false"

"They are children who can never grow. They could do no different."

"I loved them. I loved them so much"

"So did we all, at one time"

"They were betrayed"

"They were our punishment. Our pride was too great"

They betrayed. You betrayed

"You have dwelt here too long, Cousin."

"I am lost. All the doors are different, and the thresholds...they are holy no more".

"Yes, our age has passed. Cil-Aujas is fallen. Fallen into Darkness"

"No. Not darkness. Hell."

"Damnation, cousin. How? How could we forget?"

"Not I. I have never forgotten".

This is interesting in the vein that Cleric is Nin'jan'jin. If so, this conversation isn't about who I thought it was about - the humans. No, it's about the Inchoroi. He's not talking about the betrayal from the humans; he's talking about the betrayal of the Inchoroi.

It also implies that the Nonmen didn't go to the Outside without purpose. The nonman king is saying that he would normally just take a door to get to where he's supposed to go, but they've been changed, and he doesn't know where to go. This implies that he did know at one time, right? And if so, it wasn't the act of the men taking over that changed the doors, possibly - it was something the Inchoroi did.

What if, now, the nonmen are shut out from the Outside? What if those passages of souls are shut? Just an idle thought.

Less dangerous - yes. Which is why it would have made sense to wipe them out first.

If you're facing a strong enemy and a weak one, the best bet is to make the weak enemy attack and hate the strong one. Don't waste your resources on the weak enemy first, especially if you have the edge of surprise.

Well, if the Nonmen had a "key" to the Outside and they didn't believe in their own damnation as a species or for sorcery, then something must have changed for them, no?

We don't have a concept of what Nonmen considered damned, though. That I think is key. Would they consider it a blessing to be one of the few and be consumed by the damning fires? Is what makes someone 'less pure' actually a good thing? I mean...right now, we have women who aren't as valuable as men despite being somehow more intelligent, less governed by their emotions and physical needs, and being able to make new soul connections. Then we have the Few, who are really, really powerful. Just seems odd that these would be the things less valued...unless a similar parable to Esmi and why women are less powerful applies to the Outside as well.

[Humble Asskicker]

I mean...right now, we have women who aren't as valuable as men despite being somehow more intelligent, less governed by their emotions and physical needs, and being able to make new soul connections.

Did RSB say this, or is there textual evidence to that effect? I'm not as deeply studied in the texts as many on this thread evidently are so I wonder. All I recall is that Esmi is unusually intelligent. However, Kellhus is bounds and leaps more intelligent than she, and even her sociopathic son manipulates her with ease.

It seemed like a wash on whether Mimara or Achamian is the more intelligent. And aside from those Esmi and Mimara, there's really not enough of a female cast to measure which gender is more intelligent. Or less governed by their emotions and physical needs, at that (both genders seem highly governed by such, as I saw it).

By the way, how certain are we of the accurateness of the Judging Eye? Mimara had the feeling of absolute conviction, and Achamian took it very seriously, but if there is a disconnect of the physical world and the Outside, how do we know that it means what the two believe it means? There's plenty of evidence that damnation is real, but not so much on the significance of the Judging Eye.

[Kalbear]

RSB's said it, and Akka remarks on how women seem to be less driven by their emotions (and Ajenics does as well). It's not set in stone, mind you, and it's entirely opinion. It's more a matter of the character's opinions of things than the textual representation; as you say, we see little of Esmi being smarter than the men or less driven by their emotions and basic needs than the men in the text; we're just told about it.

Not a clue about how accurate TJE is either. Mimara seems fairly sure of her conviction, and it clearly has some actual effect. Akka refers to it a couple times as a curse (that might be the truth he was withholding from her, I suppose), but he never doubts its existence or her telling anyone about it or what she sees. It seems teleologically accurate from what we know of the metaphysics; she describes seeing women as less than men, sorcerers as being covered in fire, etc.

[Paxter]

On a sidenote, HE, Mimara does indicate that she has seen other sorcerers than Cleric and Akka with the Judging Eye, and they looked similarly damned. And these were ones in the Andiamine heights. Again, sure, they could have been damned for eating shrimp or cheating on their non-wives or whatever, but chances are that all sorcerers are damned, Kellhus is lying, and belief doesn't make real.

Of course, you are making assumptions about the true nature of the Judging Eye here. That internal dialogue you quoted from Akka's point of view in TJE suggests that there might be a lot more to the Judging Eye than simply observing damnation. ETA: sorry Kal, you pretty much say this in your above post...

A question for Happy Ent (and others if you want to answer):

Earwa is the realm of maximum objectivity - it is very hard to change things by subjective desire when you live in Earwa. You have to have the gift of the Few (the ability to see the world from many angles, to see with the God's eyes) in order to change reality in Earwa (unless you happen to live in Atrithau, where sorcery doesn't work) or you have to be in a Topos (part of the Outside). By contrast, it should be very easy to change reality in the Outside if you reside in the Outside (a realm where reality yields to subjective desire, even if you aren't one of the Few). My question is:

If the Outside is the realm of subjective desire, why would the people of Earwa have any ability to control the Outside? Why wouldn't the denizens of the Outside (demons, the Hundred Gods, other souls residing in the Outside) have control over physical reality in the Outside?

[Durckad]

Well, it seems to me that Inchoroi must have been convinced of their damnation when they caused the Womb Plague. Otherwise, why bother? In fact, their damnation may have been the reason why they came to Eärwa in the first place - a primitive planet may have been easier to seal against the Outside from their POV.

IMO, the Womb-Plague was nothing more than an attempt to kill off an enemy. Remember that the first contact that the Inchoroi had with the Nonmen resulted in two of their numbers being summarily executed. From a practical standpoint (as practical as space-faring rape monsters can be), the inchoroi probably a) wanted revenge against the nonmen or b) saw the nonmen as dangerous opponents that might mess with whatever rape-based plans they had in store for Earwa.

I'm pretty positive that the issue of damnation didn't really come up until the Consult came around and that the inchoroi were just reacting to perceived threats around them. That is, unless I missed something in the appendix ;) (I don't have my book handy atm).