Judging Eye III

[Paxter]

I had always thought that Kellhus was lying. He has repeatedly demonstrated that he is a liar, and this is the shortest path to getting all sorcerers to follow him. I thought the corruption/damnation that Mimara saw when she looked at Achamian and the nonman proved that sorcerers were still damned. Even though neither of them are directly following the will of Kellhus (as far as we know), this still seems to disprove #2 and #4.

There are two reasons that the damnation of Akka and Incariol do not disprove #2 and #4:

1. You would expect Akka to be damned, because Kellhus hasn't saved all sorcerers, only those who perform his holy will (like Eskeles). Remember, Kellhus says "sorcerers can be made holy", not "sorcerers are holy".

2. You would expect Incariol to be twice damned because he is (a) a sorcerer who is not on Kellhus' side and (b) IIRC all nonmen are damned by the Tusk.

[gladius]

2. You would expect Incariol to be twice damned because he is (a) a sorcerer who is not on Kellhus' side and (b) IIRC all nonmen are damned by the Tusk.

And

c) He's an erratic. He probably committed countless atrocities.

[Happy Ent]

c) He's an erratic. He probably committed countless atrocities.

d) even before the Womb Plague, the Nonmen treated their human slaves like we treat cattle. (Or have I got my timelines mixed up now?)

[Borque]

How did the sorcerers/consult determine that they were indeed damned? Was it through someone (possibly several someones) who also had the Judging Eye?

The Inchoroi could actually have the information from their own dead. Like Cil-Aujas, Golgotterath could well have some dead and damned residents. It's a topos.

[Paxter]

Just re-read a chapter from TTT where Kellhus is explaining sorcery to Akka.

These are the main points from Kellhus' lecture:

- The God created the world

- The God hides behind everyone's face and dwells within everyone

- The Many see the world from one set of eyes, and have forgotten the God's voice.

- But the Few see the world from many sets of eyes (the God's eyes), and remember some of the God's voice.

- Because they remember fragments of the God's voice, they can alter his creation.

- But because they remember merely fragments of the voice, the alterations they make are never as perfect as what God made.

- As a result, when one of the Few looks at another sorcerer, they see the mark - a mark of imperfection.

- The Many can't see the mark, because they do not see the world from many sets of eyes.

As for the Cishaurim:

- They blind themselves so that, rather than seeing from one set of eyes, they are better able to recollect what it is like to see from many sets of eyes.

- Because they see from many sets of eyes better than non-Psukhe users, their creations are more perfect and more like God's original creation.

- Thus they don't bare the mark - their creations are near-perfect.

So, according to this analysis, there is no link between the mark and damnation. The only reason Psukhe users don't have the mark is because they are better at creation than other magic users - not because they aren't damned.

And also, given that this is Kellhus' understanding of sorcery (assuming he isn't lying), can he really believe that sorcerers are damned? If the answer is no, then sologdin's possibility #5 is looking good.

ETA: of course, the other big question is how does the Judging Eye fit into the above theory of sorcery.

[Kalbear]

The only funny thing about Bakkerworld is that the perception of damnation coincides with the reality of damnation. That’s not, presumably, how our world operates. Jews or antisemites may or may not burn in hell, but this is independent of whether we think that Jews are damned (as we used to) or antisemites (as we do now).

There's nothing in the books that would indicate this is true. There's nothing that would remotely suggest that the objective reality is at all influenced by human thought. And there's plenty to suggest otherwise.

Remember - the Consult were damned before Men existed. The Inchoroi were damned by the nonmen, who believed them to be saviors. How (if perception is reality) could the Inchoroi be damned if they were considered to be good by the only thinking creatures on the planet?

Why would the Consult try and shut the Outside out to save their souls? Wouldn't it be enough to simply convince all the world that they were okay?

So no, I don't buy it.

We have no evidence in the book that sorcerers are not damned. (or whores, for that matter). We do have evidence via Mimara that those who practice magic are still damned.

But sorcerers aren’t, no more than others. Kellhus merely removed the automatic damnation that comes from sorcery. Sorcery, even according to the Novum Arcanum, remains a wicked and obscene act, just as hatred and deceit are wicked.

Kellhus has manifestly not removed all sorcerers from the ranks of damned, no more than hateful and deceitful people were automatically saved before Kellhus.

Kellhus has stated that the automatic damnation is gone. But we have zero evidence that what Kellhus states is always going to be true, or that his interpretation is the correct one. Heck, we have no idea what 'damnation' means here, and I doubt Bakker will be obliging in educating us.

I'd put it this way: the objective reality of the world wasn't changed with the Inchoroi. It wasn't changed with the nonmen. It wasn't changed with Inrithi, and it wasn't changed with Fanim. Why would we think it would be changed with Kellhus?

[Tears of Lys]

I interrupt this "damned" conversation at this point to add a comment. Isn't it something how Bakker buries info in his books? I've now read the four books about three times each, and I still just feel like I'm scratching the surface of this story. Either he's one hell of a subtle writer, or he's led us on a hell of a chase that will result in naught.

:bang:

[Happy Ent]

There's nothing in the books that would indicate this is true. There's nothing that would remotely suggest that the objective reality is at all influenced by human thought. And there's plenty to suggest otherwise.

Ah, but I mean objective reality in the Outside. I thought we even had an Ajencis quote for that.

Remember - the Consult were damned before Men existed.

Hm… I don’t remember that. Maybe you mistyped and mean the Inchoroi? We’d need to know something about Nonmen ethics for that. I honestly have no idea.

How (if perception is reality) could the Inchoroi be damned if they were considered to be good by the only thinking creatures on the planet?

Don’t know. As far as I understood, the first reaction to the Inchoroi is Cû’jara-Cinmoi’s, who is repelled by their obscene aspect.

Why would the Consult try and shut the Outside out to save their souls? Wouldn't it be enough to simply convince all the world that they were okay?

If they could grasp the thousandfold though, sure.

We do have evidence via Mimara that those who practice magic are still damned.

We have no such evidence. If her internal monologue told us how she viewed Kellhus, or the numerous other sorcerers she has encountered, that would be another thing. And as far as I know, we don’t have such flashbacks. (Weak argument: If Mimara, by the power of her judging eye, saw all sorcerers as damned, it seems strange that she wants to travel along that same path.)

I'd put it this way: the objective reality of the world wasn't changed with the Inchoroi. It wasn't changed with the nonmen. It wasn't changed with Inrithi, and it wasn't changed with Fanim. Why would we think it would be changed with Kellhus?

I’m sure the objective reality of the Outside was changed with all those things, save perhaps the arrival of the Incû-Holoinas.

[Happy Ent]

I was thinking that the Inchoroi came to believe that they were damned as they learned about the scriptures and metaphysics of the world upon which they'd crashed.

That’s one of the Good Questions I alway try to get interviewers to ask: Where the Inchoroi damned when they still resided on Analion VI?

[Kalbear]

Ah, but I mean objective reality in the Outside. I thought we even had an Ajencis quote for that.

Who Kellhus said was wrong? And what does objective reality in the Outside mean?

Hm… I don’t remember that. Maybe you mistyped and mean the Inchoroi? We’d need to know something about Nonmen ethics for that. I honestly have no idea.

I meant the Inchoroi, you're right. Though it hardly matters. We know that the Nonmen didn't have any problem with them once they introduced the immortality drug. I suppose that the Nonmen could have thought of these guys as damned even though they were throughout their society and doing these things, but that seems a bit odd. The alternate view is that by living forever, they figured they'd be beyond damnation - which would be interesting.

Don’t know. As far as I understood, the first reaction to the Inchoroi is Cû’jara-Cinmoi’s, who is repelled by their obscene aspect.

Yeah, he was repelled by their lack of mouths. :P Point being, there's still no evidence from the nonmen that their interaction changed the Outside. Heck, here's a good bit of evidence from TJE: the fact that Mimara can tap into whatever and actually seal the Outside in the way that satisfies the dead nonman king's question should be a strong argument that the metaphysics have not changed significantly and that they apply both to the nonmen and to men. Why should an artifact designed by nonmen be able to tap into the 'guarding' power that nonmen have otherwise?

If they could grasp the thousandfold though, sure.

Why do they need to do that, though? Heck, Kellhus hasn't convinced the whole world either. There are plenty in his camp who don't believe, much less Fayanal, the various cults, Sakarpus, etc. All they'd need to do is show someone that they were actually not damned.

We have no such evidence. If her internal monologue told us how she viewed Kellhus, or the numerous other sorcerers she has encountered, that would be another thing. And as far as I know, we don’t have such flashbacks. (Weak argument: If Mimara, by the power of her judging eye, saw all sorcerers as damned, it seems strange that she wants to travel along that same path.)

We have evidence that she saw both Akka and Cleric as damned. They practice magic. I guess you could make the argument that she didn't see their actual damnation and saw something else, but that's kind of silly and has far less evidence than the opposite.

I’m sure the objective reality of the Outside was changed with all those things, save perhaps the arrival of the Incû-Holoinas.

Why?

I mean, the only quote we have from Bakker on this is that he wanted to explore a world where the objective reality (the atomic weight) is also tied to certain metaphysical values. Where women being worse than men was objectively true; that no matter who viewed it or how it was viewed, it was not mutable. Atomic weights don't alter. If that analogy is true, isn't it a huge copout that Kellhus can just wave that all away by the power of belief?

If you can change the objective reality of the outside, isn't this just a big philosophical wankfest?

[Tears of Lys]

(Re: Mimara's Judging Eye:)

We have no such evidence. If her internal monologue told us how she viewed Kellhus, or the numerous other sorcerers she has encountered, that would be another thing. And as far as I know, we don’t have such flashbacks. (Weak argument: If Mimara, by the power of her judging eye, saw all sorcerers as damned, it seems strange that she wants to travel along that same path.)

This point about Mimara's impression of Kellhus was something I wondered about back in another thread. Another poster said Kellhus just let her see what he wanted her to see, but I'm not convinced. Unfortunately, her POV regarding Kell is brief and doesn't tell us much. I thought it interesting, though, that she doesn't see him as others seem to, but rather as someone to almost be pitied. (I don't have my book with me, so can't give the exact quote.)

Question: Does anyone else in the Mandate have anything to say about the Judging Eye? Akka knows of it and fears for Mim because of it. We wonders what the repercussions and/or duties are entailed in being the possessor of such a talent.

[Happy Ent]

If that analogy is true, isn't it a huge copout that Kellhus can just wave that all away by the power of belief?

I would disagree on the “justâ€. It’s not as if this is easy. Moënghus realised that he couldn’t do it.

What I absolutely don’t understand is if, say, a Water-bearer in 4102 would be damned. (After all, the Fanim view him as holy. The Inrithi don’t.) Does it depend on where he dies? Coin flip? Weighted average?

[Kalbear]

I would disagree on the “justâ€. It’s not as if this is easy. Moënghus realised that he couldn’t do it.

He couldn't do it because he fucked up and picked the wrong sorcery. But it was easy, and more to the point it had been done before. It had been done with Inri before, but again - the outside did not change. Or at least there's no evidence that this was the case.

Again, I ask - why is Kellhus suddenly special compared to Fane or Inri? Or compared to the Nonmen kings? Why would his word be more likely to cause a change in how the Outside views things?

You're presuming that Kellhus is the actor; I presume he's the agent. He didn't know that punishing the Shrial would be correct, and it freaked him out because it implied no causative force. Doesn't that imply that he's not a causative force, but an agent of one? If so, why would he be changing things? Wouldn't he be at best a better indication of what the Outside and God actually was?

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

I don't think human beliefs may change reality of the Outside. I used to defend this theory, but what Scott said on our board about objective character of precepts of Earwan faith seems to refute it. I am now leaning to the opinion that Kellhus is a false prophet - either insane or manipulated by No-God or whoever else. Sorcerers are still damned and Kellhus simply has no say in this matter.

[kuenjato]

I don't think human beliefs may change reality of the Outside. I used to defend this theory, but what Scott said on our board about objective character of precepts of Earwan faith seems to refute it. I am now leaning to the opinion that Kellhus is a false prophet - either insane or manipulated by No-God or whoever else. Sorcerers are still damned and Kellhus simply has no say in this matter.

change the reality? perhaps human beliefs simply influence the outside... particularly large shifts, like Fane & Inri.

When is book two schedualed to come out again?

[Kalbear]

BTW, here's a bit from Mimara's pov about other sorcerers:

"he bears the mark, as deep as any of the sorcerers she has seen glide through the halls of the Andiamine heights, but where they drape silks and perfume about their stain, he wears wool patched with rancid fur" pg 51.

So we know her opinion of the mark at least, and it does seem to be consistent with tje. If it were not, you'd expect a surprised reaction when she sees Akka with tje later.

[sologdin]

Akka to be damned, because Kellhus hasn't saved all sorcerers

what's more: even if all sorcerers were saved, isn't achamian not a sorcerer any longer, and therefore not illustrative of the contrary thesis by the time he comes with the cognizance of mimara's adjudicatory occular? (i think my adjudicatory occular is cooler than the very vanilla judging eye, incidentally.)

[Paxter]

So we know her opinion of the mark at least, and it does seem to be consistent with tje. If it were not, you'd expect a surprised reaction when she sees Akka with tje later.

What do you mean by this Kal? She is one of the Few, so of course she can discern the mark. Why is that important?

As for your arguments refuting HE's theory that perceived damnation = actual damnation, my gut instinct is to agree with you, but I wouldn't rule it out completely.

Your main evidence refuting the theory is:

a) Akka and Cleric are sorcerers, but they are still damned despite an alleged change in perceived damnation;

b) The Inchoroi were damned by Nonmen before Men existed.

But there are problems with this evidence:

a) Kellhus has not purported to save all sorcerers, only those who conform to his wishes (Akka and Cleric clearly do not fall within this category). Also, cleric is nonman. They are all damned under the Tusk.

b) Men still existed when the Nonmen arrived, just not in Earwa - they lived in Eanna. If the Chronicle of the Tusk was around when the Inchoroi arrived (which is a possibility), then the Inchoroi would be damned because of the atrocities they committed (the tekne etc.) - these atrocities probably contravene the Chronicle of the Tusk.

Just to clarify, I do not actually believe that perceived damnation = actual damnation, but I think it's too early to rule it out as a possibility. In fact, I don't think any of the possibilities I listed earlier can be conclusively disproved at this stage.

[Paxter]

Just a side-conversation:

I'm really leaning toward Incariol = Nin'janjin.

Here's the evidence:

a) We know that Incariol is Ishroi ("Exalted Ones" - someone from the warrior/noble caste). Nin was clearly from this caste - he was the Nonman King of Viri. Also, he killed Cu'jara Cinmoi on the field of battle - so he must be a pretty decent fighter/mage.

b) Nin'janjin is immortal, so he may well have become an erratic. Also, there is no record of Nin's death.

c) We know that Incariol is a traitor. "You-you betrayed-trayed". Nin'janjin is most certainly a traitor - in fact he committed the greatest treachery in Nonman history - he was the one who convinced Cu'jara Cinmoi to let the Inchoroi walk freely among the Nonmen. This resulted in the womb-plague and the end of Nonmen dominance in Earwa.

d) We know that Nin hates Cu'jara Cinmoi - hates him for Cu'jara's betrayal (Cu'jara was the one who invaded Nin's kingdom shortly after the Inchoroi arrived). We also know that Incariol hates Cu'jara - he mocks the statue of Cu'jara in Cil-Aujas.

e) And this is the clincher in my books: the language used by Cleric when he mocks the statue: "Where is your judgment now?". That is exactly what we would expect Nin to say, because Nin had to beg mercy and penance before Cu'jara (i.e. he had to subject himself to Cu'jara's judgment) when he was acting as an agent for the Inchoroi. These actions, coupled with Nin having killed Cu'jara himself, explain why Cleric mocks the statue by uttering the words "Where is your judgment now?"

Anyway, please carry on with damnation discussions...

[Kalbear]

What do you mean by this Kal? She is one of the Few, so of course she can discern the mark. Why is that important?

It's not just that she perceives the Mark - it's that she views it as a 'stain'. She clearly has subjective views on its attractiveness, and it seems clear to me that she views it as ugly. In the next set of pages she talks about how she'd see Akka with the eye and how bad he'd look; she already assumes he'll look horrible via it.

Your main evidence refuting the theory is:

a) Akka and Cleric are sorcerers, but they are still damned despite an alleged change in perceived damnation;

b) The Inchoroi were damned by Nonmen before Men existed.

That's part of it. There's also no evidence to support that Men can change the objective reality via belief. There's no evidence that would suggest that belief has any power whatsoever. There's plenty of evidence that Kellhus is a huge liar and manipulator, and will tell anyone exactly what they want to hear to get what he wants; think about what he told Esmi after her manipulation from the Consult, for instance. We have no evidence that Inri was able to change the objective reality. Or Fane. Or the Nonmen.

But there are problems with this evidence:

a) Kellhus has not purported to save all sorcerers, only those who conform to his wishes (Akka and Cleric clearly do not fall within this category). Also, cleric is nonman. They are all damned under the Tusk.

b) Men still existed when the Nonmen arrived, just not in Earwa - they lived in Eanna. If the Chronicle of the Tusk was around when the Inchoroi arrived (which is a possibility), then the Inchoroi would be damned because of the atrocities they committed (the tekne etc.) - these atrocities probably contravene the Chronicle of the Tusk.

Okay. So now we're actually saying that Men are alone responsible for the damnation (or not) of anything, including themselves - AND they can change reality according to their belief. Gotcha.

So why do the Nonmen reference the Outside and the damned? Are you saying that Nonmen knew that they were all damned and did nothing about it? Wouldn't they have come to the same conclusion the Consult did and try and wipe out all humanity? And if that's all true - isn't it insanely stupid that the Consult tried to kill the nonmen instead of wiping out Men?

Just to clarify, I do not actually believe that perceived damnation = actual damnation, but I think it's too early to rule it out as a possibility. In fact, I don't think any of the possibilities I listed earlier can be conclusively disproved at this stage.

We also can't prove that the No-God talked to Kellhus. We can't prove any number of things that weren't instantly spelled out to us as historical reference. So what? What is more likely?

It's still way more likely that Kellhus is a liar and that the objective reality isn't changeable.