FMLA: Once again America is rather behind the times

[A wilding]

A major aspect of maternity leave in the UK is that it is disproportionally slanted toward middle class professional women. The women on minimum wage jobs are typically on short term contracts that effectively mean that they lose their jobs if they get pregnant, or at best have to take unpaid leave.

This makes maternity leave a safety net for the better off only. If it is considered as an incentive to breed, then it is aimed squarely at the better off and better educated.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

The US's FMLA plan should be more like the european models. Woman should not have to suffer professionally to give birth. Better educated people should be encouraged to procreate. Someone has already mentioned how this is an investment and it is - we need to invest in babies and children so when they get older they don't feel desperate for their needs.

Hell, we should have the euro model for vacation and sick days period. More bank holidays would make much happier employees.

Every place I worked, we had a temp come in during family leave time and they left when the person came back. No biggie.

If you mean this, then I don't see why we argued.

Unless of course you think it should only apply to professionals and not the working poor, who are more likely to need it.

You and Chats have both mentioned "work ethics" and I have to say, some of the people who work the hardest are not sitting on their asses in cushy office jobs. I have only talked about people who do work getting a benefit when on medical leave, and have never mentioned it given to people who don't work.

Frankly, I have always considered you a champion of those taken advantage of by both corporations and government, especially minorities.

[Balefont]

I would characterize a business that is forced by the government to transfer money to an employee who is not working as having to pay "a handout."

Now, if businesses decide that they wanted to pay 6 weeks' (or however many) paid parental leave on their own, to attract qualified employees, I'm all good with that. In fact, many businesses do this. As we've heard, there are some that are even more generous.

Right. And to go further with this, perhaps to sweeten the deal there could be like a government matching program phased out to certain levels of income (in order to keep the focus on the middle class as opposed to the upper class). Under the program if an employer offers 2-6 weeks paid leave, the government matches this paid leave so that mothers/fathers can afford to stay home with their babies at such an important stage in the baby's development. If your work doesn't have a good plan, well... sorry but you might try to get a better job before you have kids. (Or A Job)

[Seventh Pup]

Honestly I think investing in children is almost always the right course of action. Not that a child can't overcome having a mother who doesn't take maternity leave, but they defiantly benefit from it. I remember taking a developmental psychology course, and it blows your mind how much that little brain grows and develops in only a couple months.

I think a lot of people's focus is misplaced if they think of it as a vacation for the mother. I hate to get all "will somebody think of the children" but seriously think about the children. Early childhood is so amazingly important, and yet it often is over looked and unfunded. Children do not really seem to become part of the social consciousness until they get to kindergarten. Yet the care and experiences they have before that also help lay the path for who they will become.

[Minaku]

So... does that mean I can ask you guys on the board to give me money to survive through motherhood? I wouldn't mind 3 months, but someone will have to go to work for me, teach my classes for me, practice for me, and go to school for me.

[Seventh Pup]

So... does that mean I can ask you guys on the board to give me money to survive through motherhood? I wouldn't mind 3 months, but someone will have to go to work for me, teach my classes for me, practice for me, and go to school for me.

Isn't that what subsitutes are for?

[Filippa Eilhart]

... does that mean I can ask you guys on the board to give me money to survive through motherhood?

only if you've been paying a part of your income to the board fund for the past year or so ;)

[Minaku]

Isn't that what subsitutes are for?

Unfortunately there is no such thing as a substitute student. To keep my job I need to be a full-time student, so someone other than me has to step up to the plate. Clearly, being a new mother, having two jobs, and being a full-time graduate student is way too hard for anyone to do without assistance of any kind from taxes or the government.

Can you guys pay for both my substitute and me?

Flip: Well shoot, I haven't, guess I'm on my own then.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Honestly I think investing in children is almost always the right course of action. Not that a child can't overcome having a mother who doesn't take maternity leave, but they defiantly benefit from it. I remember taking a developmental psychology course, and it blows your mind how much that little brain grows and develops in only a couple months.

(not picking on you it was just the most recent relevant quote)

I'm changing my position. Since everyone seems to think that the more time children spend with their parents, the better adjusted they will be, I am supporting parental leave. Both parents should get full, paid leave, until their kids graduate high school at the minimum. 3 months is obviously not enough to make a difference and I think two years is just pussy capitalist bullshit. 18 years baby. That will make a difference for the children. And it shouldn't just be for the mother. Kids need their fathers too. Both parents, full paid leave, until all their kids have graduated. And the company better keep their positions open.

[Stalker]

A combination of the company and the government.

Punish companies for hiring women, especially into highly paid positions? Sounds like a great idea.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

Punish companies for hiring women, especially into highly paid positions? Sounds like a great idea.

As has been pointed out, a lot of those high paying positions already offer 6 weeks (or more). How is this punishing the company for hiring women into highly paid positions?

But you do have a point in that the companies that don't offer it, usually in the lower paid positions, would be less likely to hire women. I guess this is the reason that countries have the government pay it instead of the companies.

[Annelise]

Paying into a system that offers paid parental time off is okay, but I have trouble with the idea of holding the position for some of the longer periods that have been mentioned. If you're planning for multiple children 2-3 years apart, seems like you'd be back to work for 6-12 months, and it'd be time to have another. Plus, while a temp could be a fine solution, they're not feasible recourse for every position.

That sort of extended system (certainly 1+ year) over here, given our differences in habit and POV, seems like it would sharpen the bias against childbearing age women (and men, if that caught on).

[Minaku]

Reverse question: If a woman did not take maternity leave, would she be considered a bad mother?

[Werthead]

You learn something new every day.

Six weeks? What happens then? Do the mothers have to come in to work with the babies strapped to their backs if they cannot afford childcare and don't have familial support?

If this was the policy in the UK most companies and families would not be able to support themselves or function effectively.

There was an interesting case in the UK where a (female) employer announced - rather stupidly - on the news that she was only going to employ women over the age of 40 on the grounds they wouldn't be getting pregnant and forcing her to pay out maternity leave and then having to pay for a temp on top of that. Legally, she could have been taken to court by any prospective female employee under 40 turned down for a position on the grounds of both age and sexual discrimination, both illegal under UK and EU law.

[Annelise]

Reverse question: If a woman did not take maternity leave, would she be considered a bad mother?

I don't think so.

As mentioned before, daycares don't take kids under 6 weeks so apart from people who can afford nannies, one parent will prolly need to take that time off. I have no issues with it being Dad instead of Mom. I only worry about Mom being sufficiently recovered from the birth before she goes back to work.

[TrackerNeil]

(not picking on you it was just the most recent relevant quote)

I'm changing my position. Since everyone seems to think that the more time children spend with their parents, the better adjusted they will be, I am supporting parental leave. Both parents should get full, paid leave, until their kids graduate high school at the minimum. 3 months is obviously not enough to make a difference and I think two years is just pussy capitalist bullshit. 18 years baby. That will make a difference for the children. And it shouldn't just be for the mother. Kids need their fathers too. Both parents, full paid leave, until all their kids have graduated. And the company better keep their positions open.

::snort:: Liberal.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

::snort:: Liberal.

Don't get me started man, it takes a village to raise a child you know. I'm thinking anyone living within a 2 block radius of the kid should at least only have to work part time (supplemented of course by the government), so that the kid will be as well adjusted as possible.

[Annelise]

Six weeks? What happens then? Do the mothers have to come in to work with the babies strapped to their backs if they cannot afford childcare and don't have familial support?

The thing is, that issue doesn't go away after 6 weeks. It's there until the child is off to school. I'm not sure what some extra time does for people facing the issues you described? Am I missing something about the British system?

[Minaku]

You learn something new every day.

Six weeks? What happens then? Do the mothers have to come in to work with the babies strapped to their backs if they cannot afford childcare and don't have familial support?

If this was the policy in the UK most companies and families would not be able to support themselves or function effectively.

There was an interesting case in the UK where a (female) employer announced - rather stupidly - on the news that she was only going to employ women over the age of 40 on the grounds they wouldn't be getting pregnant and forcing her to pay out maternity leave and then having to pay for a temp on top of that. Legally, she could have been taken to court by any prospective female employee under 40 turned down for a position on the grounds of both age and sexual discrimination, both illegal under UK and EU law.

Many companies in the US have on-site daycares, or nearby daycares where you can drop your kid off. If you're an employee of the company, you'd be allowed to use the on-site daycare. Other people telecommute, hire a babysitter, send their children to church daycares. There are a lot of options. They are not always the optimal options, but they are available.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

Many companies in the US have on-site daycares, or nearby daycares where you can drop your kid off. If you're an employee of the company, you'd be allowed to use the on-site daycare. Other people telecommute, hire a babysitter, send their children to church daycares. There are a lot of options. They are not always the optimal options, but they are available.

For kids of a certain age, yes. The hardest kids to place are newborns. In every case, I have had to get on waiting lists at different child care facilities as soon as I found out I was pregnant.

Most in home daycares don't want newborns either (or will take a newborn, but not an older child).

There are strict laws in most states about the child to care giver ratio. I think in most cases it is 4:1 for newborns.

After age 2, the ratio gets a lot higher and it is a lot easier to put a child in a program.