The Acts of Caine by Matt Woodring Stover

[First of My Name]

Okay thanks.

[Werthead]

Yeah, almost all of those questions are answered in Caine's Law. Caine Black Knife is essentially a stand-alone, more straightforward, 'less dense' adventure. Well, it isn't, but it reads that way until Caine's Law makes it clear how it relates to the rest of the series. And then your brain explodes.

[First of My Name]

Yeah, almost all of those questions are answered in Caine's Law. Caine Black Knife is essentially a stand-alone, more straightforward, 'less dense' adventure. Well, it isn't, but it reads that way until Caine's Law makes it clear how it relates to the rest of the series. And then your brain explodes.

Looking forward to it :D

[Migey]

So I finally got around to reading Heroes Die, and just finished it.

I don't know how much I liked it. I feel it didn't quite live up to the hype from this thread.

The story is based on a really amazing premise, which is really all that carries it for the first third of the book until things started get interesting, which they did. However, what gets me is the disgusting abuse of cliches and stereotypes. It's strange, because this is a mostly well written book and the author obviously has experience and talent, yet he somehow manages to use about every single narrative cliche I can imagine, and just about every character feels like he stepped out of a handbook on stereotypes. He's paradoxically good enough to keep the characters at least semi-interesting, barely. Enough that I was able to keep reading, but only just. A lot of things do get really wearying, such as the fact characters who are supposedly invincible due to their insane martial prowess are practically crawling out of the fucking woodwork. A lot of things are really not well explained either (including the total wtf borderline deus ex machina with Pallas and the totally random, unpredictable river god thing), such as Berne and Caine. Yes, we do get some small justification of why they're such intense enemies, but it isn't enough for just how insanely passionately the two hate each other. Given no information you'd assume that one raped and murdered the others mother and entire family in front of their eyes, or something. It ultimately feels like they only hate each other so that Caine can have an insanely omgwtfsoamazinglytalentedfighter rival, who of course has to be an absolute asshole and oh god, it's too much. I feel like I could comfortably familiarize myself with the entire cast by finding a list of stock fantasy archetypes and reading through it.

What baffles me is how unoriginal Stover so often is after the truly fascinating and awesome premise. It gives you a lot to think on and adds some really cool and interesting dynamics to the whole standard fantasy story which make the thing worth it, but the actual standard fantasy story really did dissapoint at times. I kept expecting curveballs to come and things to play out unexpectedly, like Berne maybe being killed by a lesser character in any of the fifteen or so chances he has to do so, but they rarely do.

Also, what is with Caine? I find this guy hard to get invested in. He's obviously a despicable human being and all round asshole (despite some very sympathetic circumstances, admittedly) but the author never seems to use or realise that, except with Pallas who has to hate him so that they can have broken up. Somehow we're still supposed to root for him though, because he defies the dystopian world back on Earth (one of the most interesting aspects of the story). But he's also a complete Mary Sue, blessed with standard protagonist invulnerability and ability to overcome and ignore crippling wounds and injuries, insane skill and ability, yet also amazing intelligence and charisma. But of course Pallas, who is actually a good person (although even more boring as a character) who has had a long time to get over him obviously falls for him again because omghesjustsoawesomeandhandsome and he sacrificed himself to save her (despite killing enough people to repopulate a country after a bout of plague). So yeah, a potentially interesting character who despite a lot of development manages only to not be the least interesting thing in his own story simply due to the characters around him being even more dull.

Yet for some reason, I still actually came away having enjoyed the book, or at least not regretting the experience. I place this mostly in the hands of the whole Earth/Overworld dynamic, and the mixture of dystopian sci-fi and fantasy is the most interesting thing to come out of the whole endeavour. The fantasy story too is at least somewhat interesting, despite aforementioned issues. I was hooked enough (especially at the end by the potentially interesting dynamics of Ma'elkoth being on Earth now... that could be used in some cool ways) to maybe read the sequel someday, but I doubt I will unless I can find a used copy under 10 pounds which doesnt seem likely, and I doubt I'd ever recommend this book to anyone.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Also, what is with Caine? I find this guy hard to get invested in. He's obviously a despicable human being and all round asshole (despite some very sympathetic circumstances, admittedly) but the author never seems to use or realise that, except with Pallas who has to hate him so that they can have broken up. Somehow we're still supposed to root for him though, because he defies the dystopian world back on Earth (one of the most interesting aspects of the story). But he's also a complete Mary Sue, blessed with standard protagonist invulnerability and ability to overcome and ignore crippling wounds and injuries, insane skill and ability, yet also amazing intelligence and charisma. But of course Pallas, who is actually a good person (although even more boring as a character) who has had a long time to get over him obviously falls for him again because omghesjustsoawesomeandhandsome and he sacrificed himself to save her (despite killing enough people to repopulate a country after a bout of plague). So yeah, a potentially interesting character who despite a lot of development manages only to not be the least interesting thing in his own story simply due to the characters around him being even more dull.

I usually don't like saying that the next book will address your concern since good books, especially the first in a series, should stand on their own, but the next book addresses your concerns.

[Sci-2]

I usually don't like saying that the next book will address your concern since good books, especially the first in a series, should stand on their own, but the next book addresses your concerns.

Yeah, Heroes Die was a good book IMO but it was Blade of Tyshalle that I reserve my high praise for.

[First of My Name]

So I finally got around to reading Heroes Die, and just finished it.

I don't know how much I liked it. I feel it didn't quite live up to the hype from this thread.

The story is based on a really amazing premise, which is really all that carries it for the first third of the book until things started get interesting, which they did. However, what gets me is the disgusting abuse of cliches and stereotypes. It's strange, because this is a mostly well written book and the author obviously has experience and talent, yet he somehow manages to use about every single narrative cliche I can imagine, and just about every character feels like he stepped out of a handbook on stereotypes. He's paradoxically good enough to keep the characters at least semi-interesting, barely. Enough that I was able to keep reading, but only just. A lot of things do get really wearying, such as the fact characters who are supposedly invincible due to their insane martial prowess are practically crawling out of the fucking woodwork. A lot of things are really not well explained either (including the total wtf borderline deus ex machina with Pallas and the totally random, unpredictable river god thing), such as Berne and Caine. Yes, we do get some small justification of why they're such intense enemies, but it isn't enough for just how insanely passionately the two hate each other. Given no information you'd assume that one raped and murdered the others mother and entire family in front of their eyes, or something. It ultimately feels like they only hate each other so that Caine can have an insanely omgwtfsoamazinglytalentedfighter rival, who of course has to be an absolute asshole and oh god, it's too much. I feel like I could comfortably familiarize myself with the entire cast by finding a list of stock fantasy archetypes and reading through it.

What baffles me is how unoriginal Stover so often is after the truly fascinating and awesome premise. It gives you a lot to think on and adds some really cool and interesting dynamics to the whole standard fantasy story which make the thing worth it, but the actual standard fantasy story really did dissapoint at times. I kept expecting curveballs to come and things to play out unexpectedly, like Berne maybe being killed by a lesser character in any of the fifteen or so chances he has to do so, but they rarely do.

Also, what is with Caine? I find this guy hard to get invested in. He's obviously a despicable human being and all round asshole (despite some very sympathetic circumstances, admittedly) but the author never seems to use or realise that, except with Pallas who has to hate him so that they can have broken up. Somehow we're still supposed to root for him though, because he defies the dystopian world back on Earth (one of the most interesting aspects of the story). But he's also a complete Mary Sue, blessed with standard protagonist invulnerability and ability to overcome and ignore crippling wounds and injuries, insane skill and ability, yet also amazing intelligence and charisma. But of course Pallas, who is actually a good person (although even more boring as a character) who has had a long time to get over him obviously falls for him again because omghesjustsoawesomeandhandsome and he sacrificed himself to save her (despite killing enough people to repopulate a country after a bout of plague). So yeah, a potentially interesting character who despite a lot of development manages only to not be the least interesting thing in his own story simply due to the characters around him being even more dull.

Yet for some reason, I still actually came away having enjoyed the book, or at least not regretting the experience. I place this mostly in the hands of the whole Earth/Overworld dynamic, and the mixture of dystopian sci-fi and fantasy is the most interesting thing to come out of the whole endeavour. The fantasy story too is at least somewhat interesting, despite aforementioned issues. I was hooked enough (especially at the end by the potentially interesting dynamics of Ma'elkoth being on Earth now... that could be used in some cool ways) to maybe read the sequel someday, but I doubt I will unless I can find a used copy under 10 pounds which doesnt seem likely, and I doubt I'd ever recommend this book to anyone.

Stover made a point of using all the cliches, he said in an interview, so that he could subert them. IMO he mostly succeeded in that, but I get where you're coming from. Also, I mostly agree about the river god angle.

Still, I enjoyed Heroes Die immensely. I loved the character of Caine. I recommend that you read Blade of Tyshalle, which dismantles the happy ending of the first book completely. It's a much better book in many ways.

[Werthead]

Heroes Die is a good, solid opening novel, but it's really not representative of the series at all. Despite the strong premise, it's reasonably straightforward.

Blade of Tyshalle, OTOH, is an extended trip to Planet Whatthefucknuts and is where the series gets most of its praise (along with the genius structural inter-mingling of Books 3 and 4).

[Rob B]

Planet Whatthefucknuts

I'm going to steal that phrase wholesale.

[First of My Name]

What are the odds on another Caine book coming out? (Or new Stover books in general?) He says he's working on a Chicago crime novel, I'd be interested to read that. But I really hope that he'll return to Overworld - Stover's got ideas for 4 more books at least (the Act of Faith Trilogy and Dead Man's Heart - Act of Remembrance), it says on Wikipedia. How awesome would that be?

[End of Disc One]

I think he's said he'd write more Caine books if he got a publisher to pay him. At the moment no publisher seems interested. I'm not sure why he doesn't go through Kickstarter--people on the forums have given possible reasons for why he couldn't but I don't remember why.

[First of My Name]

Okay, thanks.

And the Overworld comic? I'm not hearing much from that corner either. I believe they started on it 2 years ago?

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

I'm enjoying Caine's Law, though I have no idea what the fuck is going on. I didn't completely understand Blade of Tyshalle either, so I'll have to reread everything soon.

[polishgenius]

Okay, thanks.

And the Overworld comic? I'm not hearing much from that corner either. I believe they started on it 2 years ago?

There's legal issues involved there. Seems his book publishers aren't quite cool with him publishing a comic with someone else, or something.

[Werthead]

On his Facebook page, Stover has said that lots and lots of people buying the UK ebook versions of the series, and the physical ones if they come out, would be a good start. Also people buying the US editions (Heroes Die and Caine's Law are still in print) and so on. I think part of the problem is that publishing a very large novel like BoT as a physical book is quite expensive, and the current success level of the series doesn't warrant it.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Migey - Most of your questions are answered satisfactorally in subsequent books, but I can tell you that your guess on why Caine hated Berne is not terribly far off the mark.

As for the stereotypical characters and the insanely talented warriors and whatnot ... remember that this is a world being consciously manipulated in various ways (some more direct than others) in order to create a better milieu for Adventures. In addition there are spoiler reasons that tie these cliches together (spoilers for BoT):

Overworld is the actual, literal source of many of the fantasy cliches employed by the Studio and fantasy writers.

[First of My Name]

I have also completely fallen in love with those short chapter-intro parts of BoT. I find myself going back to them very often.

ETA: I mean, just look at this (there are no spoilers, since it's very abstract):

There is a cycle of tales that begins long, long ago, when the human gods decreed that all their mortal children shall know sorrow, loss and defeat in the course of the lives they were given. Lives of pure joy, of perfect sufficiency and constant victory, the gods reserved for themselves.
Now it came to pass that one particular man had run nearly hisentire alloted span, and he had never known defeat. Sorrows he had, losses he had taken, but reversals that other men would call defeats were to him no more than obstacles; even the worst of his routs was, to him, merely a stratgic withdrawal. He could be killed, but never conquered. For him, the only defeat was surrender; and he would never surrender.
And so it soon followed that the king ofthe human gods undertook to teach this particular man the meaning of defeat.
The king of the gods took away this man's career - took away his gift for the art that he loved and that had made him famous - and this particular man did not surrender.
The king of the gods took away this man's possessions - took away his home, his wealth, and the respect of his people - and still this particular man did not surrender.
The king of the gods took away this man's family, everyone that he loved - and still this particular man did not surrender.
In the final story of this cycle, the king of the gods takes away this man's self-respect, to teach him the meaning of the helplessness that goes with defeat.
And in the end - the common end, for all who contend with gods - this particular man surrenders, and dies.

Or this:

And heach had his own role to play: the crooked knight defended the part-time goddess; the part-time goddess served the land; the acolytes of dust and ashes fed their master's hunger.
The dark angel made war.
He answered to call of the crooked knight; he used the part-time goddess to work his will; he named the god of dust and ashes his enemy.
On that day, the dark angel broke his chains and went forth to battle.

[Happy Ent]

Done with BoT.

The only disappointment is that there was potential for some “sentient tree on city” action in the middle of the book, which was never realised.

So now I’m waiting for Stover to write some really badass Ent fiction.

[First of My Name]

I'm now on the last book i the series, Caine's Law.

Blade of Tyshalle is a contender for the spot of My Favorite Book Ever.

Caine Black Knife, IMO, was good but not great. Doesn't weigh up to the previous two books, though it was entertaining. Writing was good. I've heard that becomes a better novel when taken as a whole with the sequel.

CL is very promising so far. I don't have a clue what's going on, but it's still brilliant.

[First of My Name]

Finished Caine Black Knife, which was nowhere near as good as Blade of Tyshalle but still entertaining. I've started Caine's Law, which is shaping up to return to BoT's glory while still being impossible to follow.