MMA 2009 III

[Oorag]

Can we take a time out to talk about the Belcher/Akiyama fight? When my dad, father in law, and I watched it we were like the judges: split. Dad thought it would go to Belcher, my FiL Akiyama, I said draw. With all the arguments back and forth, we recently rewatched the fight with a pen and paper to score it and I still say it was a draw and my FiL agrees with me (my dad still insists Belcher won it though).

I gave it to Akiyama, and wasn't all that surprised by the 30-27 for him. I could see the case being made for it. As for a draw, I don't think I've ever seen a UFC judge give a 10-10 round, so I don't think we'll ever see one unless there's a point deduction or 10-8 round.

[Ken Stone]

Can we take a time out to talk about the Belcher/Akiyama fight? When my dad, father in law, and I watched it we were like the judges: split. Dad thought it would go to Belcher, my FiL Akiyama, I said draw. With all the arguments back and forth, we recently rewatched the fight with a pen and paper to score it and I still say it was a draw and my FiL agrees with me (my dad still insists Belcher won it though).

Regardless, it was an amazing fight that completely deserved Fight of the Night. And the extra $100,000 that Belcher got softens the loss he got I'm sure. Still, its one of those fights that's fun to argue about...what do you think?

How are you scoring the rounds to come to a draw? Second round was definitely Aikyama's. Did you give the first round to Belcher and the last round a 10-10? I can see the argument for that score although I really think the first round was Aikyama's.

[benderschweiz]

People seem to think that Lesnar is all strength/size and little technique, yet his wrestling credentials are easily top 5 in the UFC. He's training catch wrestling with one of Barnett's old trainers and he used a catch wrestling technique which Mir had no answer for. There's more to technique than BJJ. People complain about Lesnar's size, yet no one thinks it's unfair that BJ is twice as flexible as other LW's, Jon Jones has an 85 inch reach, and Machida has the reflexes of cat. There's a bit of double standard in peoples minds when it comes to size and Lesnar, as every fighter is using some physical attribute that they have over an opponent to gain advantage in a fight.

With that said:

Size: Sometimes it does matter

[Oorag]

Woah, forgot about Dream 10, which is tomorrow in Japan, though they're about 18 hours ahead of Pacific Time, so the even will probably be taking place tomorrow morning for me. Since HDNet got kicked off of Time Warner (shake fist) I'll have to download it. Highlights will include the finals for their Welterweight Grand Prix, Shinya Aoki versus Vitor Ribeiro, and Paulo Filho versus Melvin Manhoef.

[GSP]

Stego. I'm not doubting that size and weight are far from insignificant factors in a fight, and I realize that GSP and BJ Penn would have trouble trying a run at heavyweight. In my last dojo, it was size and strength differentials that helped assure I never got subbed by all these littler, much quicker and more skilled dudes, so your preaching to the choir on that point. Were it not for brute force allowing me to power out of shit I'd have been subbed dozens of times, and the same factors probably played a major role in the submissions I landed.

It was the 'HW champ is the only real champ' sentiment I disagree with. I don't know the origin of the weight classes, but thank Christ for them, or nobody but Fedor would have been mentioned in the pound for pound debates for years. MMA would stink if only the HWs had anything going on, pure and simple. The HW champ is one champ amongst many, and often in one of the more boring divisions. Besides, there are probably Super Heavy Weights out there that could eat the HW champ, so where does this end?

[Ser Barry]

Marius Zaromkis fights out of our gym :)

[Ken Stone]

Stego. I'm not doubting that size and weight are far from insignificant factors in a fight, and I realize that GSP and BJ Penn would have trouble trying a run at heavyweight. In my last dojo, it was size and strength differentials that helped assure I never got subbed by all these littler, much quicker and more skilled dudes, so your preaching to the choir on that point. Were it not for brute force allowing me to power out of shit I'd have been subbed dozens of times, and the same factors probably played a major role in the submissions I landed.

It was the 'HW champ is the only real champ' sentiment I disagree with. I don't know the origin of the weight classes, but thank Christ for them, or nobody but Fedor would have been mentioned in the pound for pound debates for years. MMA would stink if only the HWs had anything going on, pure and simple. The HW champ is one champ amongst many, and often in one of the more boring divisions. Besides, there are probably Super Heavy Weights out there that could eat the HW champ, so where does this end?

There was a time, not long ago, when Couture was the HW champ, Griffin was the LHW champ, and Andersen Silva was the MW champ. I don't know how anyone can look at that and come to the conclusion that "HW is THE champ". I like Silva over both Griffin and Couture.

[GSP]

Bingo Ken!

When I think of champs, I think of Silva, GSP, Penn: dudes with unworldly skill that make the rest of the weight class look bad. Lesnar may end up there when all is said and done, but he's a hell of a lot of rounding out to do before he gets exposed IMHO. Yep, the HW champ can beat most of the lower weight class champs on most days (well, Machida/Lesnar? Not sure on that one truth be told), but that doesn't make the lower weight class guys any less a champion in my view.

[Stego]

Pound for pound is a term made up to compare big guys to little guys in dream land. In reality, the big guy wins.

[Lord O' Bones]

In reality, the big guy wins.

This immediately popped into my head, maybe because I've hung out with the guy, but Paul Varelans is unquestionably a huge man. And I've seen him beaten up by smaller men. I'm sure if I really looked into it, I would find more examples.

[Liffguard]

Pound for pound is a term made up to compare big guys to little guys in dream land. In reality, the big guy wins.

In reality, size is one factor amongst many that can contribute to the outcome of a fight, albeit an important factor. All else being equal, the bigger guy will win, but things are never that equal. I don't detract from Lesnar's victory because of his size; genetics plays a part in every sport at every weight. As has already been mentioned, Lesnar's weight is fundamentally no different from Penn's flexibility or Machida's reaction time. That said, anyone who relies on a physical attribute like that will eventually get beaten since there will always be a fighter out there with better stats in that attribute or who can capitalise on weaknesses in your gameplan. Lesnar will have to continue to advance his technique if he wants to stay the champ.

[Ser Aardvark]

How are you scoring the rounds to come to a draw? Second round was definitely Aikyama's. Did you give the first round to Belcher and the last round a 10-10? I can see the argument for that score although I really think the first round was Aikyama's.

Actually that's exactly how I ranked it. My FiL was a little weird, he ranked it 10-10, 10-9 Akiyama, 10-9 Belcher. My dad said 10-10, 10-10, 10-9 Belcher.

[Ser Barry]

10-9 Akiyama

10-9 Akiyama

10-9 Belcher

[GSP]

It has already been pointed out, but you can't have a 10-10 round in the UFC a la "the round winner gets 10 points, the looser 9 or less". Rounds generally only end up as a draw where the winner of a round gets a point or more deducted for a foul or what have you.

[Oorag]

Anyone catch Dream 10? Some great fights. It looks like the HDNet people are sticking with the Australian announcer, so I'd better get used to him.

Anyway, the first match was the tournament alternate bout and was pretty exciting. Seichi Ikemoto loves to throw weird anime-style leaping double-fist punches, but Tarec Saffiedine outfought him in an action-packed first fight.

The first WW grand prix semi-final was between Hayato Sakurai and Marius Zaromskis. Sakurai was the favorite to win the whole tournament going into the event, especially after he steam-rollered the Dream goldenboy Aoki, but his problems making weight put a question mark on that prediction. Ultimately I don't think it mattered. This was a real slug-fest, with both guys landing crazy-hard strikes back and forth. Sakurai got some cuts around his eyes and for a while it looked like the fight was going to be called, but they let it continue. About thirty seconds later, Zaromskis lands a crushing high kick and follows it up to finish. Great fight.

The other semi-final was interesting. Jason High is a wrestler, while André Galvão is a hot-shot BJJer. High had the clear advantage on the feet, but after following Galvão down to the ground, he spent the next six straight minutes just barely hanging on against rapid-fire subs until the end of the first round. In the second, he wisely kept it standing, and the judges awarded his damage over Galvão's positioning. It was one of those fights where you had no idea what the judges would favor.

Andre Dida versus Katsunori Kikuno was bizarre. Dida is apparently a muay Thai fighter, while Kikuno is the Deep LW champion and a Kyokushin karate fighter. Dida started strong, and then just started to hang back, while Kukuno stood with his hands down in a Kyokushin stance and didn't do anything. After being warned for inaction, Kikuno got Dida down and apparently landed a punch that hurt Dida enough to turtle him up for the win. It was the first Japanese win of the night, so the crowd went wild, despite the inactivity of the fight.

Paulo Filho and Melvin Manhoef was what I was most looking forward to. Manhoef landed some big bombs that crumpled Filho into the corner, and it looked like a Filho's triumphant return was going to be a flop, but he survived, got back to his feet, eventually took Manhoef down, and within twenty seconds he had him armbarred. Pretty gutsy win, and I'm looking forward to seeing more.

Vitor Ribeiro and Shinya Aoki turned into a snoozer. Rather than the elite grappling competition people expected, Aoki decided to sprawl and turn it into a cruddy kickboxing contest. Aoki kept his distance and landed the occasional kick while Ribeiro whiffed with punches. With two minutes left in the fight, Ribeiro finally got Aoki down, but was only able to do some light GnP from guard. Pretty dull.

Dong Sik Yoon vs. Jesse Taylor was probably the most bizarre fight of the night. Dong Sik Yoon is famous for being a Korean judoka who gets constantly thrown underneath elite MMA fighters. If punches were autographs, his face would be worth a lot of money. He faced "JT Money," the unbalanced TUF 7 contestant. In his pre-fight video, they showed a picture of a limo, and the picture cracked into pieces, obviously referring to his TUF antics. Anyway, Taylor dominated the grappling and tossed Yoon around for about two dozen seconds before Yoon suddenly verbally tapped due to injury. During a take-down his ankle got twisted and probably broken. Taylor looked pissed that he didn't get to put on more of a show.

And then, the big grand prix finale, Marius Zaromskis versus Jason High, two darkhorses going into the tournament. High showed his wrestling and got Zaromskis down, but Zaromskis got to his feet quickly and then landed a murderous high kick and followed it up with a punch before his foot even touched the ground. High-light reel KO. What an exclamation point to the evening. So congrats on your gym's success, Ser Barry. Zaromskis must have earned a lot of fans that night.

[Ken Stone]

Actually that's exactly how I ranked it. My FiL was a little weird, he ranked it 10-10, 10-9 Akiyama, 10-9 Belcher. My dad said 10-10, 10-10, 10-9 Belcher.

No offense, but I think your father is off his rocker. How could the second round be 10-10? Akiyama took Belcher down in the first 10 seconds and then pounded on him for about 3:30. After Belcher got up they traded blows for the rest of the round with neither having the advantage on the feet. If you only look at the last 2 minutes of the round then it was a tie, however rounds are 5 minutes long, and Akiyama dominated the first 3 minutes, with Belcher offering no offense to speak of. If it would have been a 3 minute round it would have been 10-8 Akiyama.

[lessthanluke]

No offense, but I think your father is off his rocker. How could the second round be 10-10? Akiyama took Belcher down in the first 10 seconds and then pounded on him for about 3:30. After Belcher got up they traded blows for the rest of the round with neither having the advantage on the feet. If you only look at the last 2 minutes of the round then it was a tie, however rounds are 5 minutes long, and Akiyama dominated the first 3 minutes, with Belcher offering no offense to speak of. If it would have been a 3 minute round it would have been 10-8 Akiyama.

x 2.

I personally gave all 3 rounds to Akiyama.

ETA: Though I would not have complained either way as rounds 1 and 3 were close.

ETA 2: Just watched Zaromskis vs High. Noice!

[Ken Stone]

Pound for pound is a term made up to compare big guys to little guys in dream land. In reality, the big guy wins.

Then look back at the history of the UFC and show me one example of a time when the HW champ would be the clear favorite to beat the LWH champ. Right now, with the emergence of Lesnar, is the only time in the history of the UFC you can make that argument. Hell, even now I see Machida as being the fighter with the best chance to beat Lesner. Regardless let's look back through the HW champs and see if they really were the best.

1997 - HW Champ Mark Coleman v LHW Frank Shamrock.

1997 - HW Champ Maurice Smith v LHW Frank Shamrock.

1997 - HW Champ Randy Coutrue v LHW Frank Shamrock.

1999 - HW Bas Rutten v LHW Frank Shamrock. (This was a fight that Shamrock won in 1994, lost via split decision in 1995, and lost via Cut in 1996)

2000 - HW Kevin Randleman v LHW Tito Ortiz

2000 - HW Couture v LHW Ortiz (This is a fight that Couture won at LHW)

2002 - HW Ricco Rodriguez v LHW Ortiz

2003 - HW Sylvia v LHW Couture (This is a fight that Couture won at HW)

2004 - HW Sylvia v LHW Vitor Belfort

2004 - HW Mir v LHW Belfort

2005 - HW Arlovski v LHW Couture

2005 - HW Arlovski v LHW Liddell

2006 - HW Sylvia v LHW Liddell

2006 - HW Couture v LHW Liddell (Liddell won 2 of 3)

2007 - HW Couture v LHW Jackson

2008 - HW Couture v Griffin

2008 - HW Big Nog v Griffin

You get the picture. In none of these match ups (reality) is the HW the clear winner. In many the LHW would be the favorite. In dream land the HW is always the winner. In reality, like what happened for real, it's not so clear.

[benderschweiz]

All those HW champs from years past with the exception of Sylvia are like LHWs when compared to Lesnar. He would run through every LHW out there. I'd listen to the argument that Machida could beat Lesnar, but I think he'd end up on his back in a similar position to Mir.

[Ken Stone]

All those HW champs from years past with the exception of Sylvia are like LHWs when compared to Lesnar. He would run through every LHW out there. I'd listen to the argument that Machida could beat Lesnar, but I think he'd end up on his back in a similar position to Mir.

Out of all possible fights the one I would give a kidney to see would be Lesnar v Machida. Machida has fought guys much quicker than Lesnar and they haven't been able to catch him.