So I just read the first Malazan book

[Arakasi]

As for all the bitching about not explaining things, the explanations are there. Just because you decided not to read them or go further doesn't mean it is not there. DoD actually brought together a lot of threads from previous books and if book 10 continues like that, I expect most of the threads to be finished up to at least a temporary conclusion.

I do agree with whomever said that it's stupid that we expect worlds to begin and end at arbitrary points of books. The world goes on, there is more fights in the future, peace is never secure. But it seems like everyone has it in their minds that they want stories tied up with a little bow.

Not to say there isn't some problems with things he has written, and there are issues with the timeline that are annoying if you delve too much into it. But I'd put a guess that 90% of these issues people have have been wrapped up or will be wrapped up next books but they just don't care to read it anymore. Which is fine, don't like it but the answers are there.

[Arakasi]

That doesn't contradict what he said.

There is less people discussing Erikson here because many peoples opinions of his work have shifted to the negative over time.

And there is less people discussing the Martin series because peoples opinions of his work have shifted to the negative over time. You just don't see it on this board as much, since this is a Martin board. Shocking, authors get worse. Never said Erikson was immune to that.

Still doesn't refute the fact that you can't post much in Erikson threads here without being bombarded by Erikson hate. I know plenty of Erikson fans who used to post here who got driven away by the negativity.

It would be like having a Yankees fan thread on Sons of Sam Horn. You could put it there and try to have a good thread, but what would be the fucking point.

[Shryke]

There's less discussion of Martin because it's been years since his last release. That's the nature of lit forums.

Erikson just released a new book and you see almost nothing because ALOT of people here have either abandoned the series, or don't think too highly of it anymore.

[Shryke]

As for all the bitching about not explaining things, the explanations are there. Just because you decided not to read them or go further doesn't mean it is not there. DoD actually brought together a lot of threads from previous books and if book 10 continues like that, I expect most of the threads to be finished up to at least a temporary conclusion.

I do agree with whomever said that it's stupid that we expect worlds to begin and end at arbitrary points of books. The world goes on, there is more fights in the future, peace is never secure. But it seems like everyone has it in their minds that they want stories tied up with a little bow.

Not to say there isn't some problems with things he has written, and there are issues with the timeline that are annoying if you delve too much into it. But I'd put a guess that 90% of these issues people have have been wrapped up or will be wrapped up next books but they just don't care to read it anymore. Which is fine, don't like it but the answers are there.

Ahh, so Book 9 finally explains everything? We'll see.

But is it really surprising that people drop the series when it takes 9 massive books from most of this stuff to be explained?

[Arakasi]

Actually it is because the majority of posters who used to post in the Erikson threads on the release of new books no longer post here. Some have them have moved on to the Malazan forum (which is more developed than it used to be) and many others have just disappeared for one reason or the other. This place just isn't a good environment to have Malazan discussions. I realized that years ago which is why I only dabble in here occasionally now. When I want to actually discuss Malaz I have other places to go.

I'm not contesting your point that there are fans who used to be fans who aren't. We have some in the threads here. But there is a larger number of people who were fans and who did discuss it who just don't post here anymore.

[Arakasi]

Ahh, so Book 9 finally explains everything? We'll see.

But is it really surprising that people drop the series when it takes 9 massive books from most of this stuff to be explained?

Not everything of course but a lot of story threads were drawn together. Go look at Wert's review, he went over some of it. Since book 10 from what he said is going to be no set up and all resolution it has me thinking things will come together fairly well. He said before DoD that it would be the setup book to book 10 and you could view it as two halves of the same book. Which led me to think that book 9 would be bad because it would be more of the first half of book 8. But thankfully for a book the author said was a setup book it actually resolved a lot of shit.

As for why people read, I dunno. Why do people like watching Lost? Do they enjoy watching a show for 5 years when a lot of stuff didn't get explained? Different folks/strokes I suppose. How about BSG? Did people like watching that?

[Errant Bard]

And there is less people discussing the Martin series because peoples opinions of his work have shifted to the negative over time. You just don't see it on this board as much, since this is a Martin board. Shocking, authors get worse. Never said Erikson was immune to that.

Why this need to always compare? Seriously, different circumstances, both best selling books. First you remark about WoT fans being disappointed, now it's Martin. It seems that for you, praising Malazan is to diminish the worth of other works, as if you could not say it was great, but only that it sucked as much or less than the rest.

I'm not contesting your point that there are fans who used to be fans who aren't. We have some in the threads here. But there is a larger number of people who were fans and who did discuss it who just don't post here anymore.

Did you really mean to imply that Erikson got a number of fans at the start, and that this number can only go down as time passes? (even if this number goes down more slowly that this board would indicate, because after years, those who stay fans now know to avoid it?)

[Eurytus]

I don't see this "Martin has also declined with time" thing.

Basically he has had one comparatively poor book. Said book is comparatively poor because it is compared to its immediate predecessor in the series, a Storm of Swords, which is probably one of the best fantasy books written.

More criticism heads Martin's way for the excessive delays between books (something I tend to agree with incidentally).

However with Erikson its not just one book that shows a comparative decline. Its a host of them. The last book near universally regarded as top class in the series was Memories of Ice (and even that had the atrocious Mhybe storyline to contend with which was more than skipworthy). Whilst I liked Midnight Tides I am aware that many, perhaps even most, do not.

House of Chains, Bonehunters, Reapers Gale, Toll the Hounds and as I understand it even the last one, are each nowhere near the best in the series. Erikson's peak was a long, long time ago and he really doesn't look like regaining it. Martin could be back on track with his very next book, certainly the addition of some fan favourite viewpoints should help.

[williamjm]

Btw I would completely disagree with you on Hamilton and Bujold. Hamilton's 6 book series started strong but oh my god did that series end badly. And Bujold? She's been milking that series for the last drops of milk for years now. Her quality has clearly dropped. I think you might have a point with someone like MacLeod though. To really keep that artistic quality high, I think the best chance is a writer who writes infrequently and doesn't get locked into series. MacLeod fits that bill as much as anyone.

What's Hamilton's 6 books series? He's written three trilogies (one unfinished) and a duology but nothing longer. What I was referring to there was that the Night's Dawn trilogy is probably his most famous work and what might be considered his 'magnum opus' (well, maybe not the third book) but I'd say that six books later, last year's Temporal Void was at least partially better than his earlier series so he's not going downhill at all IMO.

Bujold? I'm not sure she's milking the series all that much since it has been 7 years since the last book. Diplomatic Immunity was a fairly minor entry in the series, admittedly (but I quite liked it), but I know a lot of people considered the previous novel A Civil Campaign as the best in the series (I don't agree with that, I preferred some of the earlier books, but I wouldn't say it is really a significant drop in quality).

Macleod's general avoidance of series might help (since possibly his weakest work was his only attempt at a trilogy), but I wouldn't say he writes infrequently since he's pretty much published a novel a year for the past decade.

This might be getting a bit off the topic of the thread... ;)

[Arthmail]

Ahh, so Book 9 finally explains everything? We'll see.

But is it really surprising that people drop the series when it takes 9 massive books from most of this stuff to be explained?

This for the win. We are talking like 9000 pages for plot threads to be resolved, or only become understandable.

[VarysTheSpider]

Still doesn't refute the fact that you can't post much in Erikson threads here without being bombarded by Erikson hate. I know plenty of Erikson fans who used to post here who got driven away by the negativity.

Boo hoo hoo. You're just as bad. You can't stop yourself from making snide remarks about Martin even though this thread has nothing to do with him.

[Werthead]

Well what I mean more about the Opus is that big work that their career has built up towards. Sure Martin had done stuff previously, but it was just dabbling. I think every author should get some time to hone his craft before starting in on the end all and be all of their lifetime work. Of course with today's publishing, it pretty much happens like that.

I'm not sure how many people who were fans of GRRM pre-1996 would agree with that, when he was being touted as the best SF short story writer of the 1970s and one of the best in the 1980s, when Wild Cards was a big smash hit success and Fevre Dream was being touted by many as one of the best vampire novels ever written. ASoIaF has brought him to a wider audience, but simply dismissing his pre-1996 work is a bit odd.

Not everything of course but a lot of story threads were drawn together. Go look at Wert's review, he went over some of it. Since book 10 from what he said is going to be no set up and all resolution it has me thinking things will come together fairly well. He said before DoD that it would be the setup book to book 10 and you could view it as two halves of the same book. Which led me to think that book 9 would be bad because it would be more of the first half of book 8. But thankfully for a book the author said was a setup book it actually resolved a lot of shit.

A lot of plot threads came together, sure, and some stuff was resolved (but not that much). But a lot of the plot threads that Erikson is drawing together is stuff that's also relatively recent in the series. The 'oldest' plot threads addressed in the book (such as Tavore's plans) go back no further than House of Chains, whilst a lot more is related to the dozens of minor marines introduced in The Bonehunters and Reaper's Gale, essentially storylines that are of less interest to lots of fans, who want to know more about Ganeos Paran, the Bridgeburners and the people we started the journey with back in 1999. So yeah, a lot of stuff is addressed, but a hell of a lot more has been left to Esslemont or Erikson's prequel and sequel series. Particularly irritating is how much time has been spent on Nimander's storyline, which is basically a huge advert for Erikson's upcoming Kharkanas Trilogy of books, although it does now look like that might be tied in with some other storylines in the last book in the series a little more.

Btw I would completely disagree with you on Hamilton and Bujold. Hamilton's 6 book series started strong but oh my god did that series end badly. And Bujold? She's been milking that series for the last drops of milk for years now. Her quality has clearly dropped. I think you might have a point with someone like MacLeod though. To really keep that artistic quality high, I think the best chance is a writer who writes infrequently and doesn't get locked into series. MacLeod fits that bill as much as anyone.

I assume you're referring to the Night's Dawn trilogy, which used to be (but thankfully no more) published in six volumes in the USA? I don't entirely agree with it, but quite a few people rate the later Fallen Dragon and The Commonwealth Saga as being superior to the NDT, and also rate The Void Trilogy quite highly, despite its incomplete state. His latest book, The Temporal Void may well be his best-received critically since The Reality Dysfunction (although I personally think Judas Unchained remains his best post-1996 work).

As for why people read, I dunno. Why do people like watching Lost? Do they enjoy watching a show for 5 years when a lot of stuff didn't get explained? Different folks/strokes I suppose. How about BSG? Did people like watching that?

I agree with this point, and it's interesting that the board seem to be generally complaining about the 9,000 pages spent getting to this point in Malazan whilst simultaneously lauding the 12th Wheel of Time book for getting back on track 10,500 pages into the series.

I suspect there are going to be a lot more, possibly unflattering, comparisons between BSG's ending and the ending of Malazan when we get to it a year or slightly less from now.

[Relic]

Did you really mean to imply that Erikson got a number of fans at the start, and that this number can only go down as time passes? (even if this number goes down more slowly that this board would indicate, because after years, those who stay fans now know to avoid it?)

he's saying that a bunch of vocal erikson fans that used to post here no longer do.

Arak has been pretty consistent with his pinion on this matter for years now. Doesn't mean he's right, but it does mean he's had plenty of time to think about it.

As a side note, I keep seeing the same people posting the same stuff in these Erikson threads. I really thought most of you would have gotten bored bashing a series you don't even read anymore.

[Shryke]

I agree with this point, and it's interesting that the board seem to be generally complaining about the 9,000 pages spent getting to this point in Malazan whilst simultaneously lauding the 12th Wheel of Time book for getting back on track 10,500 pages into the series.

What's interesting about it? It's exactly what you'd expect.

People didn't like WOT when it meandered off track and didn't resolve shit and liked it better when it finally stopped doing that.

People don't like Malazan because up till the end of TtH, it was ALSO meandering and not resolving shit.

The only difference is that WOT always felt like it knew what was going on and everything would make sense eventually, it was just just taking fucking ages to get there.

Malazan, before DoD apparently, felt like it was never gonna pull together in the end.

[Arakasi]

As a side note, I keep seeing the same people posting the same stuff in these Erikson threads. I really thought most of you would have gotten bored bashing a series you don't even read anymore.

Yeah it is this attitude of people here on this board that drives people away. It's pretty difficult to actually talk about it with the critics sniping away. Goodkind I think is the only author who gets more negative attention here. Just look at the DoD thread. People are talking about the new book, talking about what they liked and didn't. And you couldn't go a half page without some "I stopped reading X books ago, I am so happy I'm not reading this crap anymore". And it is the same handful of people who always do and who continued to pour in the hate for years. If you want to wonder why there is not Erikson discussion here, than stop shitting in the Erikson discussion threads. Go shit on Erikson in the book rec threads, or in the inevitable ever growing "should I keep reading Erikson" threads.

I have stayed away from this board and especially these threads, and it actually worked for my enjoyment of the series. I took my time reading the last book, read it much more slowly and enjoyed it far more than I have the previous books.

Wert: Fevre Dream was good, but he really was jumping from style to genre to medium over the years. To me that was clearly honing his craft. Something that I think stood him well for ASOIAF. Martin may have his issues, but quality of writing and prose is not one of them.

And yes I was referring to Night's Dawn, which to me had one of the worst endings I've read. Plus while resurrection stories can work (this is an Erikson thread after all) I don't like how it was handled here. Bujold I felt started strong with the Mile's series but after 4-5 books I felt the plotline was being milked. Mileage may vary obviously.

In reference to the characters we started with. I'm guessing you are meaning books 1-3. But really how many of those characters are out of the story or you feel won't be resolved? The major characters of those books are WJ, Paran, Fiddler, QB, Kalam, Tool, Crokus, Rake, Duiker, the Bridgeburners, Felisin, Heboric and hmm thats about it. Other than Paran who has been MIA for a bit who isn't currently still in the thick of things or dead? I don't see this huge amount of plot or character threads existing that you're talking about. I'm pretty sure Paran will be there in book 10, considering the actions and motivations of the Errant in book 9.

On the comments about end of series and how things are received Wert maybe you'd comment on this. Every time you rate an Erikson book you rate it quite well. You seem to enjoy it quite a bit and have good things to say and generally give quite favorable reviews. Than inevitably a while later you're like "maybe I shouldn't have rated it as high." But Erikson from most fans I've talked to is a series that gets better in rereads. I'd say being in such a negative environment is that missing piece. Maybe your first impression was right.

I also find it amusing (and reassuring) that all our book reviewer guys here are actually fans of the work. KCF, Pat and Dylan all posted positive reviews, as did Wert.

As for the other posts, I feel perfectly justified bringing up Martin as a way of comparison in Erikson threads when the discussion is about decline of work when you people can't stop yourself from shitting in discussion threads about the newest book. If you would give us fans an inch of space we'd stop being defensive. But instead we're constantly under the gun here, which makes for a real crappy way to actually enjoy anything. If I wanted to be snide I'd have have called Martin a financial sellout. :P

[Arakasi]

TLDR: To echo what Relic said, if you want some peace in these threads then leave us the fuck alone. Being an Erikson fan shouldn't make someone feel like they're a pariah here. We get your fucking point, you don't like the series. But please leave it out of the discussion threads where people are actually trying to discuss the Malazan books. I think there would be some good discussions here (like the Malazan forums) where some extremely subtle things Erikson put in were missed. I know I am grateful to the threads there since I tend to be a skim reader. A lot of times the discussion has changed to "why did this happen" or "explain this" and it has been answered in the books. We could have a more constructive and positive environment here if we just got a bit of space. If that is in no one's interest though and the crusade keeps going, than that's fine. I have other places to discuss Erikson. But this board should be better than that and allow and foster book discussion to happen.

[Arthmail]

Jesus man, let me call you a whaaa-mbulance. Did you read the original post for this thread? The guy basically listed pros and cons and asked for opinions. When Bakker himself was getting torn to shreds on this forum i saw less of a pariah complex.

By the by, if you want a Malazan discussion thread, open it and ask in the OP for people to respect your need to discuss the book. Not sure if you've tried that before, but the threads i've seen have just been general discussion. Of course, i haven't really been paying attention, so perhaps you've been there and done that. If thats the case, you'll just have to put up with the vitriol.

I also find it amusing (and reassuring) that all our book reviewer guys here are actually fans of the work. KCF, Pat and Dylan all posted positive reviews, as did Wert. - This honestly means sweet bubcus. You shouldn't need reassurances man, come out proclaiming your love and to hell with the people that don't like it.

agree with this point, and it's interesting that the board seem to be generally complaining about the 9,000 pages spent getting to this point in Malazan whilst simultaneously lauding the 12th Wheel of Time book for getting back on track 10,500 pages into the series. - I made the 9000 page statement, and in no way lauded the 12th WoT book. I enjoyed Jordan at first, but dropped him by book six, with only an interest of seeing where the story goes in the end because for all of his faults, Jordan was a good author.

I slag Erikson, sure. I slag a number of different authors, but i still read their work. If there are things i don't like, but i still feel that that story has potential, i will return to that work. I hated Bakker the first time, and now i own all four books and enjoy them, though the Judging Eye is far superior to the first three books. Thats what these forums are all about.

For me, the Malazan books represent a huge disappointment because i see phenominal potential squandered. There are some monumental parts of the series. The Chain of Dogs with Coltaine is easily one of the most awe inspiring, shiver inducing pieces of literature i have ever read. Which makes wading through so much of the other seemingly non-essential and certainly boring shit all the more taxing. There is just so much that doesn't make a lot of sense. And thats irksome. Perhaps what happens is that some people can accept this, or enjoy it, while others are so disappointed by it that its an active thorn in their side. Dunno.

But i've seen Martin get slagged on these boards, thats the way it goes. The one thing i love about Westeros is that no one marry-coddles you.

[Relic]

On the comments about end of series and how things are received Wert maybe you'd comment on this. Every time you rate an Erikson book you rate it quite well. You seem to enjoy it quite a bit and have good things to say and generally give quite favorable reviews. Than inevitably a while later you're like "maybe I shouldn't have rated it as high." But Erikson from most fans I've talked to is a series that gets better in rereads. I'd say being in such a negative environment is that missing piece. Maybe your first impression was right.

Actually, i noticed this as well. I know that if i wanted to contiue getting free ARCs for a certain series id give it positive reviews :P

[Relic]

Jesus man, let me call you a whaaa-mbulance.

Shhhh. Just....shhhh.

[Arthmail]

Er...no. If thers no love theres no love, no sense in complaining about it.