So I just read the first Malazan book

[Arthmail]

I'm a bit confused by the idea of the Takeshi novels being better than Black Man. For all intents and purposes, they are the same books. Different guy, different political world...but main character is a super soldier beyond compare who uses extreme violence at every oppurtunity, has sex with exactly two women a novel.

[Werthead]

I thought the two sequels were slightly better than Altered Carbon and maintain that Black Man is by far the best thing he's written (whilst it also still has a lot of similarities to the Kovacs books). Go figure.

[RedEyedGhost]

This is why I love this board. Four straight posts about nothing other than Richard Morgan's Sci-fi, after a little bit a side track on Martin's writing speed, in a Malazan thread.

Good stuff :thumbsup:

[Relic]

I thought the two sequels were slightly better than Altered Carbon and maintain that Black Man is by far the best thing he's written (whilst it also still has a lot of similarities to the Kovacs books). Go figure.

Yeah for real. Go figure. I thought Broken Angels was terrible, found Woken Furies a tad tedious and slightly below Altered Carbon, and was bored by Black Man. Oh and i liked Market Forces...

[Calibandar]

I have the feeling a lot of people on this board have logged off on the Malazan series. Very little discussion anymore, looks like people are a bit done with the series. I remember that the earlier books sparked thread upon thread, like the Bakker threads do now, or The Gathering Storm.

[Shryke]

I'd agree with that. Frankly, I've just become bored with the series.

I think I used to expect shit to be explained or make sense. Somewhere around BH or RG, that stopped. Now the series is just a series of random events and that doesn't cause me to be excited and eager to finish it.

Plus, TtH was a terrible book. That ain't helping the enthusiasm either.

[kungtotte]

First.. three or so books I kept reading at a frantic pace because I kept expecting the explanations to come just on the next page. The next couple of books after that I realised I wasn't getting any explanations, and by Bonehunters I resigned myself to having to read the entire series to get some kind of finality in the plots and almost certainly not learning all there is to know about the world.

Much like my experience with Wheel of Time.

[Werthead]

First.. three or so books I kept reading at a frantic pace because I kept expecting the explanations to come just on the next page. The next couple of books after that I realised I wasn't getting any explanations, and by Bonehunters I resigned myself to having to read the entire series to get some kind of finality in the plots and almost certainly not learning all there is to know about the world.

Much like my experience with Wheel of Time.

Except that Wheel of Time does now look like it's going to deliver most of the plot resolutions and explanations people are looking for in the last book. Malazan does not look like doing the same thing. As a result, Malazan is now the reading equivalent of the new BSG: the awesomeness of the earlier instalments keeps propelling you on, hoping for a huge, exciting conclusion that explains everything needs explaining and makes the time invested in the series worthwhile. However, there is an unfortunate and growing nagging feeling that the series simply isn't going to do that and the readers will be left with a huge sense of unfulfilled potential instead.

[Gabriele]

Well, Erikson has said a few times that not everything will be solved in the Malazan series because he sees it as part of an ongoing history without a real beginning and end.

I don't mind that, but I can see how it'll be frustrating if you start reading the series in expectation that there will be a final big show down and conclusion. Readers may be happier if they just see it as a wild ride with some odd company in a megacool world. :)

[Shryke]

It's not about a big showdown, it's about EXPLAINING shit. Like "Why did X do Y?".

I mean, there's been huge subplots centered on events that are still meaningless and a complete mystery.

At some point, the plot should just stop being a series of random events.

[aegon6]

AGoT released in 1996, ACoK in 1999, and ASoS in 2000. Deadhouse Gates and Memory of Ice (two of the most highly regarded Malazan books) were released in short succession.

I would argue that when a good author has a firm plan and a passion, they can and do produce quality works with speed. The problem would seem to stem from when an author loses one or the other. IMHO

It makes sense. Martin never had a firm plan in the first place (not a detailed plan). The problem is that he delivered the first books quickly (1 every 3 years on average, 1991-2000, it seems even less since it's on AGoT he spent most of the time) but it would have been better if he had realized the 5YG didn't work and spent more time on ACoK and particularly ASoS. The actual ASoS is the source for most problems Martin has faced with AFfC/ADwD (storylines not started while they should have been in that book). At least there's no "passion" problem.

[WhiteHaven]

It's not about a big showdown, it's about EXPLAINING shit. Like "Why did X do Y?".

I mean, there's been huge subplots centered on events that are still meaningless and a complete mystery.

At some point, the plot should just stop being a series of random events.

That's what makes this series so hard to read. I am in that book wit the Tiste Edur right now - and I am tired of learning 1000 names in three pages. Morever, I do not understand who is who and why A did B. And certainly I dunno what the hell is going on with this Karsa fellow. But he sucks.

[Arthmail]

Well, Erikson has said a few times that not everything will be solved in the Malazan series because he sees it as part of an ongoing history without a real beginning and end.

This is just epic fail. I had a problem with this statement since the beginning, and its no better having read several books myself. I did not buy into this series to read something through the fog of war, like i'm reading war correspondences or something. The point of telling a story is to inform the reader of the different plot threads within said book, because as a reader i exist at an omnipotent level. Eventually, by the end of the series, i should know all and see all.

What this statement does is allow Erikson to do and say what he wants within his novels without fear of actually have to make it coherent. Plot lines can fail, characters can just wander around hopelessly, and he can say, "oh, its war. Real war is confusing."

Of course it is. This isn't real war. This is a book that should have some sort of narrative flow. And it doesn't.

Every time i see this quote i want to punch Erikson in the face and call him a douchebag.

[Myshkin]

Well, Erikson has said a few times that not everything will be solved in the Malazan series because he sees it as part of an ongoing history without a real beginning and end.

Every time i see this quote i want to punch Erikson in the face and call him a douchebag.

I concur. I view this as a cop out from an author who doesn't know how to construct a coherent story.

[VarysTheSpider]

I have the feeling a lot of people on this board have logged off on the Malazan series.

Sadly, I did too. I loved Deadhouse Gates and House of Chains. I've read them both a few times, so I thank Erikson for that. But after finishing The Bonehunters I just had no motivation to continue with the series anytime soon. I wish I could remember why, but I can't. In fact, that book's about 1,200 pages long, and I can hardly remember any of it.

[Borque]

But after finishing The Bonehunters I just had no motivation to continue with the series anytime soon. I wish I could remember why, but I can't. In fact, that book's about 1,200 pages long, and I can hardly remember any of it.

I recognize this. I can't really remember anything except a few particular scenes and characters from any of the Malazan books I've read (up to Reapers Gale). Also, I wouldn't be able to explain the overarching plot to anyone beyond it being about some Crippled God entity coming back to life, which for some reason probably is a bad thing.

I did like Memories of Ice a lot. House of Chains and Deadhouse Gates were ok. Also, I loved Tehol and Bugg. And the world building is fine, it is an interesting world Erikson has created.

I think my main problem is not the randomness or the lack of interesting characters in itself, it's the combination. I think I could have lived with the randomness if I cared about the characters, or - the other way round - a solid plot involving the current characters, but the combination has killed the series for me.

[Arakasi]

Isn't the statement that the books written after the greatest book they've ever written aren't as good as the greatest book a tautology? ;)

I know what you mean anyway, and I don't think it is too big a surprise that authors can't produce the same quality every single time. In any form of art whether it be books, films or music there are bound to be peaks and troughs in quality. I'd disagree that is always the case that authors have one great work and then fall away after the next three or four books, it has frequently happened but it isn't universal - out of some of my favourite authors I wouldn't say that it happened to Peter F Hamilton, Tim Powers, Ken Macleod or Lois McMaster Bujold, for example. Even Feist, for all that he has declined hugely in recent years, managed to keep up a fairly consistent quality for about 10 books and over a decade after what I would call his Magnum Opus - Magician, although given your username you may disagree about what his best work is.

I also suspect if I'd been reading GRRM's novels in 1980s I might have thought to myself that while Armagedeon Rag and Tuf Voyaging were reasonably good reads they weren't quite up to the same standard as his previous books Dying of the Light or Fevre Dream, and maybe I would have wondered if he would ever again write something as good as those to novels - as we know he did eventually exceed them, even if it did take a few more years.

Well what I mean more about the Opus is that big work that their career has built up towards. Sure Martin had done stuff previously, but it was just dabbling. I think every author should get some time to hone his craft before starting in on the end all and be all of their lifetime work. Of course with today's publishing, it pretty much happens like that.

Btw I would completely disagree with you on Hamilton and Bujold. Hamilton's 6 book series started strong but oh my god did that series end badly. And Bujold? She's been milking that series for the last drops of milk for years now. Her quality has clearly dropped. I think you might have a point with someone like MacLeod though. To really keep that artistic quality high, I think the best chance is a writer who writes infrequently and doesn't get locked into series. MacLeod fits that bill as much as anyone.

[Arakasi]

I wouldn't say the quality of Richard Morgan's books have declined hugely, I think they're all excellent, but I would agree with Relic in that I do prefer the Takeshi Kovacs books to Black Man.

I would also agree with Relic. Black Man was solid, but Altered Carbon was spectacular. His fantasy story was fine, but really mostly generic and not nearly as good as what has come before. Steady downward spiral to me it looks like.

[Arakasi]

I have the feeling a lot of people on this board have logged off on the Malazan series. Very little discussion anymore, looks like people are a bit done with the series. I remember that the earlier books sparked thread upon thread, like the Bakker threads do now, or The Gathering Storm.

We'd discuss it more but this is hardly a hospitable place to discuss it. I'd rather discuss the books at the Malazan forums or the Fires of Heaven forums or just about anywhere else. It's hard to have much of a discussion when you're constantly being interrupted with "Erikson sucks, the series is crap and why are you still reading that shit." I liked Dust of Dreams more than any book since Midnight Tides, but other than skimming the thread here I didn't feel like taking part in the discussion. This board is actually quite hostile toward Erikson and his fans so why this surprises you I don't know.

[Shryke]

We'd discuss it more but this is hardly a hospitable place to discuss it. I'd rather discuss the books at the Malazan forums or the Fires of Heaven forums or just about anywhere else. It's hard to have much of a discussion when you're constantly being interrupted with "Erikson sucks, the series is crap and why are you still reading that shit." I liked Dust of Dreams more than any book since Midnight Tides, but other than skimming the thread here I didn't feel like taking part in the discussion. This board is actually quite hostile toward Erikson and his fans so why this surprises you I don't know.

That doesn't contradict what he said.

There is less people discussing Erikson here because many peoples opinions of his work have shifted to the negative over time.