The Gathering Storm V3

[Guest Ro_]

Balefired people can be spun out again.

Yet Again, Verification??

Its stated clearly all over the series that you are dead wrong and that is one of the two reasons balefiring someone is Bad.

1. It screws with the Pattern

2. Any persons balefired cannot be reborn

[unJon]

Yet Again, Verification??

Its stated clearly all over the series that you are dead wrong and that is one of the two reasons balefiring someone is Bad.

1. It screws with the Pattern

2. Any persons balefired cannot be reborn

BS said the dragon could be reborn even if he was balefired. Too lazy to confirm, but I think in the KCF dinner conversation.

[Slick Mongoose]

Yet Again, Verification??

Its stated clearly all over the series that you are dead wrong and that is one of the two reasons balefiring someone is Bad.

1. It screws with the Pattern

2. Any persons balefired cannot be reborn

They can't be ressurected by the dark one, because he only has a short window to grab the soul, and balefire means that they died before they were balefired.

They can still be born again as the wheel turns.

That's how I understand it, anyway.

[Slurktan]

fionwe,

They're greedy and selfish. They want stuff to hoard. Some have been shown longing for their own Age. Asking them to destroy the world they rule is like asking a greedy man to burn money. Not going to happen.

They are already greedy and foolish enough to believe that the DO means to rule the world after breaking free with them at his side. Why wouldn't their idiocy accept a version from the DO saying "You will still be alive when I destroy the pattern"?

Because there would have been no Shadar Logoth during the Trolloc Wars (not till the tail end, at least), and without the Foresaken present, I doubt anyone would have known that you need access keys to use the Choedan Kal.

Shadar Logoth was created in the early days of the Trolloc Wars, not later. Regardless, Ishamael was present and more importantly Lews Therin would have been present in Rand's brain.

Why would there be bubbles of evil? The DO was still sealed shut then, remember?

It's my interpretation that the bubbles occur because the pattern is weak. After all the DO is still sealed in in the current books remember?

The Dragon is the Pattern's response to the weakening Seals, not the other way around. The Dark One did not even know exactly when the Dragon was reborn. Tamra kept from the Blacks the fact that they had a Foretelling at the exact hour of his birth. Only Moiraine and Siuan knew that.

Ishy didn't know and so by extension the BA's apparently. There is nothing to say that the DO didn't know when everything would happen already. He is an unknown factor.

[Galactus]

I'm always simply thought the Dragon Wasn't spun out earlier because it wasn't time for this confrontation. It was a different age,w ith a different confrontation and so the Dragon wasn't needed.

Also, the DO is still sealed, he's not entirely free, but neither is he entirely trapped either. He can reach out and touch the world (like changing the weather)

[Humble Asskicker]

If burned out threads can be respun, I wonder what the substance of "spiritual" (for lack of a better word) identity is? Does the Pattern have a memory of what the thread was like before?

It makes sense if threads are respun, but recreated seems to indicate thought on the Pattern's behalf. You don't have to think to adapt, but you do have to think to remember and duplicate what was completely destroyed.

Is there an ethereal existence, and when the Pattern weaves a thread it pulls out an indestructible spirit of sorts (an ethereal identity, if you will) and imprints it onto a thread?

[Maia]

Why wouldn't their idiocy accept a version from the DO saying "You will still be alive when I destroy the pattern"?

Because, being educated AoLers, they have a good idea what is possible for the DO and what isn't? Because they have a healthy sense of self-preservation? In any case, we have seen on-screen, that even Demandred, who is in it for revenge on LTT, seems unwilling to use balefire and believes that his chances to rule depend on Creation not being totally destroyed.

Shadar Logoth was created in the early days of the Trolloc Wars, not later. Regardless, Ishamael was present and more importantly Lews Therin would have been present in Rand's brain.

About 150-170 years into the wars actually, as it was Aemon's father Caar, who was involved with Aridholans shortly before they turned into Mashadar.

I am not sure that Ishy was still around by that point and anyway the Seals were still whole, so it wasn't the time for the DR to be spun out.

And a non-DR incarnation of Rand wouldn't have LTT in his head, why would he? Not that LTT wasn't a mixed blessing in any case.

It's my interpretation that the bubbles occur because the pattern is weak.

Both because the Pattern is weak and because the DO is touching the world. We didn't hear anything about bubbles manifesting during the Collapse or the War of the Power, though. I'd say that the Pattern was much more robust in AoL.

Also, in interviews/Q@As RJ said that in the past the Champion of Light has gone over to the Shadow occasionally and the result was a "draw". Clearly, the Third Age depicted in the series is much more fragile, though, as it couldn't have survived Rand's defection. And it is so fragile largely due to Ishy's efforts, IMHO.

Oh and re: Ishydin using balefire, he uses it against Rand in TDR and in Shadar Logoth in ACoS.

[fionwe1987]

fionwe,

They are already greedy and foolish enough to believe that the DO means to rule the world after breaking free with them at his side. Why wouldn't their idiocy accept a version from the DO saying "You will still be alive when I destroy the pattern"?

Being stupid about one thing doesn't mean they're going to be stupid about everything else. A bunch of them are loyal only because they're pissed with creation as it is now, where they are not as important as their ego tells them they should be. They want that to change, and see the DO as a means for that change.

But they aren't total morons either. They know that if the Pattern is completely destroyed, there's nothing for them to rule.

Shadar Logoth was created in the early days of the Trolloc Wars, not later. Regardless, Ishamael was present and more importantly Lews Therin would have been present in Rand's brain.

Shadar Logoth did not become the completely crazy evil place it was till later in the Trolloc Wars. The corruption didn't happen in a day.

Regardless, the reason the Dragon was not born then, and the Cleansing did not occur, is because the Seals in the DO's prison hadn't weakened then.

It's my interpretation that the bubbles occur because the pattern is weak. After all the DO is still sealed in in the current books remember?

Huh? You mean then that the potential for such evil is inherent to the Pattern? There's no evidence for that at all. Even with ta'veren, the Pattern only allows stuff that is possible, not impossible stuff like insects sprouting from people, people burning up, etc.

Moiraine's explanation of the miasma makes sense, and nothing in the series has contradicted it. Tonnes of Aes Sedai have heard the explanation and no one has disagreed.

Ishy didn't know and so by extension the BA's apparently. There is nothing to say that the DO didn't know when everything would happen already. He is an unknown factor.

He cannot predict the future. Nor is he omnipotent. If he were capable if either, he wouldn't need the Foresaken to tell him what's going on.

And he trusts Ishamael implicitly. What reason would he have to keep the birth of his greatest enemy a secret?

[fionwe1987]

If burned out threads can be respun, I wonder what the substance of "spiritual" (for lack of a better word) identity is? Does the Pattern have a memory of what the thread was like before?

It makes sense if threads are respun, but recreated seems to indicate thought on the Pattern's behalf. You don't have to think to adapt, but you do have to think to remember and duplicate what was completely destroyed.

Is there an ethereal existence, and when the Pattern weaves a thread it pulls out an indestructible spirit of sorts (an ethereal identity, if you will) and imprints it onto a thread?

Who said that the soul is destroyed by Balefired? Don't go off Min's description, because she is quite wrong in this.

When a person dies, their thread is damaged, but in the form of a cut. IT can therefore not go ahead in the Pattern. The soul returns back to the soul pool.

With Balefire, the damage is like a burn. The damage extends back from this point in time for the thread. Thus, the point when it left the Pattern ends up being an earlier point in time.

But the soul has still just gone to the soul pool.

[Humble Asskicker]

But the soul has still just gone to the soul pool.

That's what I was wondering. I couldn't recall the details of what role exactly the soul had in Randland, and whether it was independent of the actual thread.

I doubt it will ever be explored, but I wonder now what this soul pool is. Is it some inert, unintelligent mass that waits to be delved in by the Pattern, or is it some different form of existence, of awareness?

If the latter, it doesn't seem so terrible if the Pattern is destroyed, because it only destroys the existence of a dimension, while another (the soul pool) remains; if the former, I wonder what happens to that soul pool when there is no Pattern to weave them? There seems to be some symbiosis involved, at least on the Pattern's part, but will the soul pool remain extant, albeit forever non-functional?

[fionwe1987]

That's what I was wondering. I couldn't recall the details of what role exactly the soul had in Randland, and whether it was independent of the actual thread.

I doubt it will ever be explored, but I wonder now what this soul pool is. Is it some inert, unintelligent mass that waits to be delved in by the Pattern, or is it some different form of existence, of awareness?

If the latter, it doesn't seem so terrible if the Pattern is destroyed, because it only destroys the existence of a dimension, while another (the soul pool) remains; if the former, I wonder what happens to that soul pool when there is no Pattern to weave them? There seems to be some symbiosis involved, at least on the Pattern's part, but will the soul pool remain extant, albeit forever non-functional?

Well, all I know about the soul pool apart from what I said is that channelers can access it. Constructs like the Nym had souls, as do Trollocs and some other Shadowspawn.

It can be said that these souls are being "stolen". RJ said, IIRC, that Trolloc souls cannot be reborn since they're corrupted by the TP, whereas the Nym souls can be reborn.

Personally, I'd say the Soul pool is as much as part of the Pattern/Creation as normal life is, where's souls wait for their next chance for sentience.

We do know that some souls, those of the Heroes of the Horn, as well as the wolves, have a sentient afterlife in Tel'aran'rhiod.

[Maia]

It can be said that these souls are being "stolen". RJ said, IIRC, that Trolloc souls cannot be reborn since they're corrupted by the TP

I thought that he said that they _can_ be reborn, but only as Trollocs again, when the Age allows for it? Also, folks volonteering for being Grey Men must be _the_ dumbest of the dumb, because their souls are gone forever. Not that those "elite assassins of the Shadow" were able to actually get anything done during the series so far :lol: .

[Humble Asskicker]

Being stupid about one thing doesn't mean they're going to be stupid about everything else. A bunch of them are loyal only because they're pissed with creation as it is now, where they are not as important as their ego tells them they should be. They want that to change, and see the DO as a means for that change.

But they aren't total morons either. They know that if the Pattern is completely destroyed, there's nothing for them to rule.

You don't have to be a total moron to believe that an almost divine creature can do whatever it says. It's called faith. Even "evil" people have faith. The Forsaken - and Dark Ajah - have faith that they will be rewarded. They also don't fully understand how the DO's power functions, or how much he knows, or the truth of any of his words (why does that sound so familiar?) - this is where faith comes in.

In our life, suicide bombing (and other behaviors destructive not just to others, but the self as well) is commonplace, and it's an action performed by a faith that is derived from far less certainty than what we see in Randland. We know the DO exists, and that it's a powerful force. If people are willing to act suicidal for faith in something far less certain, then how can you not think that there would be people willing to do anything the DO said, and he could contrive the most far fetched lies that would be believed by his followers?

Even really intelligent people can believe in some crazy shit with absolute conviction.

[fionwe1987]

You don't have to be a total moron to believe that an almost divine creature can do whatever it says. It's called faith. Even "evil" people have faith. The Forsaken - and Dark Ajah - have faith that they will be rewarded. They also don't fully understand how the DO's power functions, or how much he knows, or the truth of any of his words (why does that sound so familiar?) - this is where faith comes in.

In our life, suicide bombing (and other behaviors destructive not just to others, but the self as well) is commonplace, and it's an action performed by a faith that is derived from far less certainty than what we see in Randland. We know the DO exists, and that it's a powerful force. If people are willing to act suicidal for faith in something far less certain, then how can you not think that there would be people willing to do anything the DO said, and he could contrive the most far fetched lies that would be believed by his followers?

Even really intelligent people can believe in some crazy shit with absolute conviction.

But suicide bombers and Foresaken are different. To the former, the loss of his/her own life matters not one whit. From their perspective, their actions are for the "greater good". They make any sacrifice demanded of them because they aren't in it (usually) for personal gain or power.

With the Forsaken, it is gain that drives them. The DO is the big boss who has the money and the contacts for their advancement. But that doesn't mean they worship him for himself. They worship him as a source for their power. When such a source makes demands on their life, or the survival of creation itself, the Forsaken resist. Look at Semirhage refusing to be a pawn (though ended up that way anyway).

The Foresaken are the last people to make sacrifices for the cause of the Shadow.

Added to this, the Forsaken are not idiots. The very fact that they don't follow the DO on blind faith, but can instead measure his power and see it in action, means that they believe based on evidence. We've seen the DO twist reality in his image. Just look at the Shadowspawn.The Foresaken have actually used his own power, and know to some extents the limitations and potentials of it.

There are scientists like Aginor and Lanfear, researchers like Mesaana, etc. who are certainly going to have grave doubts about their survival if the whole Pattern is destroyed by Balefire.

[Humble Asskicker]

With the Forsaken, it is gain that drives them.

Rather, the greater gain. Promise them that even though it seems that things will end, that they will be given the greater reward should do the trick for some of them. Suicide seems like an end, but then you believe that you'll get your 72 virgins.

Most people don't seem that different from the Forsaken. It's not a sense of altruism that generally makes (religious) people act good. It's the idea that they'll be rewarded in the afterlife. And the main deterrent force isn't that they feel bad about stealing that Ipod, or banging the other guy's wife, it's the idea that even though there aren't repercussions in this life, there will be unavoidable ones in the next.

Everyone needs their carrot to keep them running.

And I do acknowledge that altruism exist not just because people want to be rewarded. Sometimes people do it because it makes them feel good inside. But I think it's far more common that people act for gain.

Added to this, the Forsaken are not idiots. The very fact that they don't follow the DO on blind faith, but can instead measure his power and see it in action, means that they believe based on evidence. We've seen the DO twist reality in his image. Just look at the Shadowspawn.The Foresaken have actually used his own power, and know to some extents the limitations and potentials of it.

The DO works in mysterious ways...are you saying that people in Randland (and not only the Forsaken would be capable of balefire) aren't capable of that sort of thought?

The DO can simply claim that he doesn't allow them to know the full extent of his powers, and why he acts this way is for a reason, but one that is beyond them.

Stoke the fanaticism of uncertainty.

Religious assertion that can be tested within the natural world have often been disproven, but that doesn't stop a supernatural rebuttal that is impossible to disprove.

There are scientists like Aginor and Lanfear, researchers like Mesaana, etc. who are certainly going to have grave doubts about their survival if the whole Pattern is destroyed by Balefire.

There are lots of powerful Darkfriends. Most of them aren't equal to the Forsaken, but surely the DO isn't so inept as to be unable to have had one of his Forsaken impart knowledge of the AoL (or at least how to use balefire) to loyal BA with the promise of becoming Naeblis, and then do away with any Forsaken who choose to be disobedient because they opt for knowledge over faith.

It just seems that DO is in such a position that it would be soooo easy to manipulate people. People have proven themselves capable of believing just about anything for the flimsiest reason; the DO, being a being of such power and age, seems like he could exploit that to pretty much any end.

The old threat and reward system (do this: go to heaven; do that: go to hell) is a fantastic force that is eminently exploitable.

At the very least, he should be able to somehow get a bunch of people together to balefire the world out of existence sometime within the countless millennia of his imprisonment.

[TerraPrime]

Re: Graendel is alive

Maybe. Possibly.

But certainly, the possibility does not rest on how smart she is. I mean, Sammael got chomped on by wandering mist that he led himself into. From book 1, the Forsakens have not shown that they're that much smarter than anyone else in the series. Maybe except Demandred. He managed to stay hidden and we don't know if any of his scheme has been bungled or not. And maybe Lanfear, who died from having Moiraine push her through the doorframe while she's drawing so much OP.

Anyway. It didn't take Semirhage to show me that Forsakens are just humans. Petty humans with blinders and flaws and a lot of OP. But humans all the same.

For Graendel, she might have lived if she had left a Black Ajah in the castle to have her weave the Compulsion on that guy. Perhaps that's what happened. But I'm not going to bet on it. Not the least reason is that we're now down to 2 more books to tie up loose ends, not to create more. If Graendel had lived, that'd mean that the author will have to tie that thread up later. My guess is that Sanderson would just prefer to have Graendel will done with. He's only got, what, 571 other loose ends to tie up? :P

[williamjm]

My guess is that Sanderson would just prefer to have Graendel will done with. He's only got, what, 571 other loose ends to tie up? :P

I would doubt it would really be Sanderson's decision, I would think that the fate of the various Forsaken would be something important enough that Jordan would have made a note on what he intended to happen and as I understand it Sanderson won't deviate from those notes regardless of what he might want to do.

[Poobah]

RE:Souls and etc.

My understanding is this :

A life is a thread in the pattern, being woven with other threads as time progresses, for the sake of argument lets say that the pattern is woven left to right because that's the direction I read in. When someone dies their thread ends. Comes to a stop. Ceases to be being woven. Whatever. Balefire simply has a temporal element, it doesn't just kill someone, it 'burns' the thread back in time a bit. The rest of the thread still exists, or everything that person had done ever would be removed by the tiniest bit of Balefire. Since some of the existence of the thread has been surgically removed, but no other threads have been damaged they remain woven as they are, hence people remembering stuff as it was pre-Balefire.

The Dark One does not exist outside time and must operate within it, and only has a set amount of time to grab a soul before it goes off to where ever to be reborn. If someone dies a half hour before the Dark One becomes aware of their death, because of Balefire then he never got the chance to grab their soul, so they can't be put in a new body by him.

[Slurktan]

Being stupid about one thing doesn't mean they're going to be stupid about everything else. A bunch of them are loyal only because they're pissed with creation as it is now, where they are not as important as their ego tells them they should be. They want that to change, and see the DO as a means for that change.

But they aren't total morons either. They know that if the Pattern is completely destroyed, there's nothing for them to rule.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. As HA has went into though he may have a different take; IMO it's absolutely ludicrous that the Forsaken wouldn't take that on faith given how their entire existence at this point was given by that same faith.

Shadar Logoth did not become the completely crazy evil place it was till later in the Trolloc Wars. The corruption didn't happen in a day.

Nor did I say it did. No one went in it from its fall until the Shadowspawn army was camped into it near the end of the TWs. That's at least 150 years(going by Maia's number, I can't confirm or deny) and so half the trolloc wars.

Huh? You mean then that the potential for such evil is inherent to the Pattern? There's no evidence for that at all. Even with ta'veren, the Pattern only allows stuff that is possible, not impossible stuff like insects sprouting from people, people burning up, etc.

The DO is not part of the pattern. Not at all. I look at it this way, the pattern is a basketball. It is the leather which was shaped to contain the air on the inside. The inside/air is analagous to the Dark One. There is a hole where air can get out, but if the outside is weakened enough, the air can get out there as well just not as smoothly. The bubbles to me are that, the Dark One filtering through the weakening pattern.

He cannot predict the future. Nor is he omnipotent. If he were capable if either, he wouldn't need the Foresaken to tell him what's going on.

And he trusts Ishamael implicitly. What reason would he have to keep the birth of his greatest enemy a secret?

To answer your first point, he doesn't need the Forsaken to tell him whats going on or did you think he needed some little birds to tell him when Aginor and Balthemel died? He can predict the future, but not with 100% accuracy no. How can he you ask? Did you fricken forget time is a wheel and everything we are seeing has been done before? What is the one constant? I'll give you a hint, it starts with a D and ends with an E and in the middle is ARK ON. I suppose in your mind he must just forgets stuff though.

To answer your second point, no he doesn't trust Ishamael/Moridin implicitly. Do you just forget the existence of Shaidar Haran then and in specific his brief PoV in (I believe) PoD?

[Lightning Lord]

Re: Graendel is alive

Maybe. Possibly.

But certainly, the possibility does not rest on how smart she is. I mean, Sammael got chomped on by wandering mist that he led himself into. From book 1, the Forsakens have not shown that they're that much smarter than anyone else in the series. Maybe except Demandred. He managed to stay hidden and we don't know if any of his scheme has been bungled or not. And maybe Lanfear, who died from having Moiraine push her through the doorframe while she's drawing so much OP.

Isn't there tremendous amount of speculation that Sammael isn't dead, either? And, if Sammael did die in SL, was he reborn DO-style?

I am sick of Forsaken coming back to life. I want them to die and stay dead or just not die until the Last Battle. FFS, Graendal had better be dead for real. This whole resurrected in a new body thing got old about 10 books ago.

Rand: "But I/Moiraine/Green Man/whoever killed you!"

Random Reborn Forsaken: "Nuh-uh! I had my fingers crossed!"

Rand: "Bloody ashes, this is like when we played rock-paper-scissors and you used hurricane!"