Future of the Middle East Peace Process

[Lord Slum]

Wow imagine people fighting back when they're oppressed and desolated. Holy shit... whodathunkit?

[snake]

Samalander,

1) We never target children. they are collateral damage.

Are you referring to the IDF or Israelis in general?

Bacause, this links shows that not all Israeli's think targeting children is wrong.

Link.

An excerpt,

The head of the yeshiva, Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro, published a book last year which, according to the Israeli media, says it is permissible for Jews to kill non-Jews if their presence "causes danger to Jews" - including children "if it is clear they will grow up to harm us".

I know this view is not representative of the majority of Israelis but it does show that there are extremists on both sides.

[TrueMetis]

This is going to be quite long...brace yourselves!!!

1) Hi there. Couple of things...how old are you if you don't mind me asking? And if that's what they are teaching in Canada these days things must be in dire straits indeed...(though it does explain Shryke! ;) )I'm not sure who this "they" you are talking about is, but I'm pretty sure the only en-masse "forcing people out of their homes" in recent years has been the settlers in Gaza being moved out. Now, what "basic rights" are you talking about? The right to wage a ridiculously unlawful war against us? Yeah, we are certainly going to curtail freedom of movement and blockade the shit out of our enemies. What did you expect? If you are talking about the broader term right to vote, represntation etc. the Palestinians have their own elected officials and institutions ect.

Don't give me that bullshit. Saying that all of the Palastinians are Israels enemies is like saying all of any group is the enemy of a nation. (that sound familar to anyone?) My age is irrelevant.

2) Let me stop you right there. Inhuman acts? What inhuman acts? What one considers inhuman another definately does not. And "racial group of persons"!?!? Are you loopy? Maybe "national" or "religious" might apply in a strech. There is no racial discrimination in Israel or the West Bank or Gaza.

Ya right "we can take away the rights of the palastinians because they aren't a racial group" <_< Anything to justify your actions.

1) So you want us to give all the Palestinians from the Jordan river to the sea Israeli Citizenship? But then, you must mean we will also annex all the land they live on and turen it into part of Israel. Is that your solution?

If Israel keeps up its imperialism that will be the only solution.

2) I can think of only one case where that happened in recent history. And the home they were living in was occupied by Jews who fled due to the war in 1948 and now their heirs wish to reclaim the property. Isn't that the very same thing you all here in the board have been clamoring for? Redressing past wrongs in the most direct way, kicking out the interlopers and returning the homes to their rightful owners? Well, the Israeli courts just gave you a taste of it. Now, does that seem like a reasonable solution? Of course, some might argue the law needs to be changed, and only Jews can get back their homes from Palestinians etc. and it probably will be changed, but the priciple is the same. If you are for absolute justice, then that was abolute justice in action.

Yep because it only matters if it was recent. <_<

[the silent speaker]

I'm also fairly certain that most of the displaced Palestinians now living in the refugee camps in fact yearn to return to their homes in Israel proper, and I'm sure that they would gladly accept Israeli citizenship and living peacefully among Jews if it meant they could go home.

I believe it has been offered before and (by and large) refused. Of course it could be argued that people could have been willing in principle but fearful of getting murdered for 'collaboration' -- I expect that was at leadt part of it -- but that only begs the question.

Fatah has renounced violence and recognized Israel's right to exist a long time ago.

... except for the part where they still fund Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades.

Not all Israeli citizens are Jewish. The prohibition affects Arabs and Christians as well.

Considering that Palestinian Christians are rapidly getting squeezed out by the Muslims there, this may not bolster your argument all that well.

Besides, selling land to a Jew is a capital crime under the PA, and unlike the prohibition on Israel's side of entering the West Bank, that one is enforced. Arab Muslim Israelis may be safer than Israeli Jews on a junket to Ramallah, but I don't doubt they're taking their lives into their hands a little too.

[Lord Slum]

Don't give me that bullshit. Saying that all of the Palastinians are Israels enemies is like saying all of any group is the enemy of a nation. (that sound familar to anyone?) My age is irrelevant.

That does sound familiar... Hmm...

/pondering/

[Lord O' Bones]

Jews gave the world God

You just gave me the first legitimate reason to dislike Jews I've ever heard in my life. Even if I'm wrong, you still got it backwards. ;)

Let's ignore me because I bring up points backed up by facts. The horror.

No, no. See, I think your heart is in the right place, but you're basically just running around in here pointing your finger and calling Israel a bunch of assholes. Which is kinda what this iteration of this oft-resurrected thread is trying to avoid. Because it's rude, not particularly helpful, and fucking boring.

That's why I'll be ignoring you in here anyway. And welcome to the board!

[Lord Slum]

So if people whom are legally sanctioned by their government kills your family members and makes sure you can't go to school aren't assholes? Logic. I'll make sure to tell the prisoners in Gitmo that everything is A-okay and the people torturing them aren't assholes.

[ljkeane]

I believe it has been offered before and (by and large) refused. Of course it could be argued that people could have been willing in principle but fearful of getting murdered for 'collaboration' -- I expect that was at leadt part of it -- but that only begs the question.

I'm fairly certain that's complete bollocks. At what point has the right of return been offered to the Palestinian refugees? In fact that's one of the major points of contention for the peace process, so I'd like to see some evidence to back up that claim.

[Caligula_K]

So if people whom are legally sanctioned by their government kills your family members and makes sure you can't go to school aren't assholes? Logic. I'll make sure to tell the prisoners in Gitmo that everything is A-okay and the people torturing them aren't assholes.

Or you could stop calling one side assholes as if Israel is a corporate identity, stop comparing Zionism to the Holocaust (which is incredibly offensive), and actually provide arguments that recognize that even if you think Israel is in the wrong in many ways (as I do), Hamas isn't exactly so hot either. Screaming "assholes" and "Holocaust" at all Israelis isn't helpful and demeans what this thread was meant to achieve. I also think that the "ONE SIDE IS RIGHT, ONE WRONG" rhetoric that a lot of people on both sides are espousing in this thread is extremely unhelpful. And that's why I'm ignoring you in here.

[Stubby]

[MOD]

Enough is enough, guys.

The OP asked for 'no needless trolling or flaming' in this thread and for the most part it has complied.

The last few pages have taken it beyond the pale and it would be nice if the rhetoric can be removed from the debate.

Deletions and suspension to follow if it continues.

[/MOD]

Otherwise, I wouldn't mind some Nordic weather right now. ;)

[CelticBrennus]

Personally I think the problem is that Israel is basically a self created Western colony in an era when the means that most colonies subjugated the lands original inhabitants are no longer available.

Basically, Israel's problem is that they founded the county a century too late. In that century it no longer became possible to simply exterminate, enslave or really force out the natives like American and Australian colonies did. If this was 1850 or even 1900, the Israelis would be able to simply throw the Palestinians into legit concentration camps (See England in South Africa and Kenya) and starve to death/sterilize etc.. whatever Palestinians they didnt outright kill or force to flee. However, Israel happened to have the luck to start their colonial enterprise when those typical sorts of actions were becoming slightly problematic.

So...in a nutshell there is not going to be any progress in the Middle East. Israel is not going to give the kind of ground they will have to in order to win peace, and the Palestinian population is growing so fast that sooner or later something is going to break.

[Lord Slum]

Hamas aren't saints, that is all too true. The problem is that the Israeli government purposefully targets and subjugates Palestinians. When you see day and night that your friends and family are without necessities it will breed hatred. Why shouldn't it? Imagine living without clean water, food and wondering if you and your family will die tomorrow. Hamas is in the wrong here, they put out cartoons depicting Jews as evil. Now compare that to the complete oppression of a group of people. It's clear to see what's really happening here. Shit I would never ever forgive people who were responsible for destroying my life and robbing everything I held dear, I doubt anyone would.

[Lord O' Bones]

Assuming that scenario is accurate, what is your solution?

[Lord Slum]

Israel must give up some of it's land to allow Palestinians to live decently. Since no one else will provide, the US needs to engage in nation building, it'll be slow, it'll take time. I have no doubt in my mind extremists from both sides will still be sending bombs over the fence and killing each other. But it's worth it. In a way, I want it to be like the way the US built Japan and South Korea.

[Lord O' Bones]

In a way, I want it to be like the way the US built Japan and South Korea.

You're going to have to be more specific here. The current make-up of both of these countires, while influenced by the US, came about from completely different situations and methods as far as I know.

[Lord Slum]

I am not familiar with how the US built South Korea but it looks like a success thus far. I am familiar with how we took over Japan and governed it. Now, we can't use the same exact strategy, seeing how I doubt Hamas will bow their heads to the US and more importantly, that they truly do not have a functional government. First we have to win hearts and minds to allow for a puppet government until they can rule themselves. How do we do that? Building infrastructure, providing clean water and food. I know many will be like 'it's the evil westerners trying to lure us with sweet poison' but after they see the poison is a home, a safe place for their kids and jobs, they'll ask for some more "poison".

From North Korea to Haiti; humanity seems bleak as hell but we have to be vigilant.

[Lord O' Bones]

Like in Iraq? Like in Afghanistan?

I can't even imagine what pretext we could invent to occupy either the West Bank or Gaza without pissing off everyone in the region, if not the world.

Afghanistan had an understandeable pretext. Aside from the obvious pretexts, in the disimilar cases of S. Korea and Japan, what was similar was our "need" to occupy those places before a Evil Communist Country did. Same with Iraq.*

Besides which, why do you suppose perhaps Egypt, or Iran hasn't already done this? Switerland? The UN?

*Why stop at WMD's? I can imagine up threats too. And I'm telling you now, that if we hadn't invaded Iraq when we did the poor Iraqi's would all be speaking Cuban right now. *firm nod*

[SpectralFremen]

And I'm telling you now, that if we hadn't invaded Iraq when we did the poor Iraqi's would all be speaking Cuban right now. *firm nod*

Solid Gold. :thumbsup:

*Leaves thread before being lynched*

[Rhadamanth]

I have to say that I've learned a lot from this thread. I usually don't bother with reading most of these threads because of the usual rhetoric that goes along with all hot topic issues but the OP's plea lasted throughout most of this one. I'm glad for that. It's interesting to see how even reasonable people can fall into the trap of unreasonable, emotional thinking when pressed.

I appreciate the views of Datepalm and even Samalander. It's good to get an idea of what some Israelis think of the situation.

I can't see a solution to this problem as long as people let their emotions guide their actions. Even Lord Slum has let his (righteous) hatred of child killing allow his posts to degenerate into a seemingly mindless hatred of Israel and its actions. The killing of children (or any human being for that matter save in the direst of circumstances) is a despicable act. I don't think even Samalander would argue with that, despite his cavalier "collateral damage" attitude. This is in fact the main reason I decided not to join the Army a few years ago even though my younger brother did. I couldn't reconcile the follow all orders attitude with my personal morality. I knew that eventually the two would come into conflict and the outcome would not be one I could live with.

The problems occur anytime either side allows the horrors of war to be acceptable consequences for a certain end. I think this is what Lord Slum was trying to say, initially. The two sides need rational people to step up and demand that solutions be found. The time seems to be ripe for this yet no one seems able to overcome the irrationals and let peace happen. Obama disappointed me when he let this and other issues slide in order to focus on some (admittedly important) domestic issues. That is why you have a staff, Mr. President. Since you like Czars so much, why not a MidEast Peace Czar?

Anyway, I hope this thread can continue because it has been enlightening. It's funny, the deeper you look the more similar things seem to become. The conflicts between Israel and Palestine mirror the local politics here (minus the killing of course). Both have a similar troubling history which people use to accomplish their own ends. Here being Georgia in the United States of America, the greatest country south of Canada and north of Mexico.

[Lord of Oop North]

I think that Cyrano should write a thesis on the magnetic attraction of n00blets to threads on Israel and Palestine.

The phenomenon is really quite fascinating, and demands further study.