Lost season 6

[Gertrude]

I'm 99% sure Locke and Jack are each others constants.

Hmmm ... I like this. Kind of bucks the trend of 'love', but they do have strong feelings towards each other. You know, Jack pulling the trigger on Locke and all.

They've been setting up Jack to be the replacement for a while, but recently they've been developing Hurley into a real leader. I am thinking that Hurley is going to be the replacement and Jack will end up being the sacrifice to take down MiB.

Way back at the temple I remember Miles' line when he was summing up to Sawyer. Something like, 'and now Hurley is apparently the leader'. I thought it odd and out of place at the time - kind of an attempt to be funny that missed the mark. Obviously it had more meaning than that. (It was still kind of awkward though)

I don't think the mirrors have anything to do with who is a candidate- Desmond looked into one, Faraday did too, and I'm pretty sure Ben did. Plus I'm still holding onto my theory that both Jin and Sun are candidates.

Well, true. I don't remember Jin having a reflection moment though. Weren't Ben and Daniel (don't remember Des) candidates at one time too? They just aren't viable now.

[Slurktan]

Hmm, this is true, but then the question becomes why would Desmond's consciousness go to that one point in time out of all points in time?

I don't think it did. I think Desmond sitting next to Jack on the plane was with Island Des's thoughts inside. Desmond's flash sideways shows how his consciousness becomes... universal but in other people's flash sideways's, he already is blended. Hence his strange chat with Jack but him not thinking it was strange pre-consciousness merge.

I hope that makes sense but I'm not sure how else I can explain how I see it.

[Kalbear]

I'm 99% sure Locke and Jack are each others constants.

This show will have redeemed everything it ever shat on if they have Jack and Locke making out next ep, in the sideways or otherwise.

So - Miles' dad has both his arms. You know, unlike Miles's dad right before Jughead blew up (where he lost the arm). Unless I'm misremembering. Which means the Jughead incident didn't happen the way we saw it, doesn't it?

[Mya Stone]

This show will have redeemed everything it ever shat on if they have Jack and Locke making out next ep, in the sideways or otherwise.

:lol:

Not exactly what I meant, but yeah...I mean, Des is Dan's constant, and I have yet to see hot bearded makeout sessions there.

Also, good point about Chang's arm. I'd honestly say that we're working with two separate timelines here, no Y-shape at all. Someone somewhere mentioned that this world could be a pocket universe, and I kind of like that theory for the moment.

[Slurktan]

So - Miles' dad has both his arms. You know, unlike Miles's dad right before Jughead blew up (where he lost the arm). Unless I'm misremembering. Which means the Jughead incident didn't happen the way we saw it, doesn't it?

You are misremembering. A machine fell on his arm. Then the Incident happened. Is it possible thats how he lost his arm? Yes. It's quite possible that since the first time the bomb didn't go off the magnetism caused the machine on his arm and what it was stuck to, to fly in the pit thus ripping off his arm. A possibility in the new timeline cause by the bomb going off, because there was no more magnetism the machine fell over normally and Chang was able to get to a Doctor to prevent his injury from causing amputation.

So in essence him having an arm means absolutely nothing.

EDit: I also misremembered. Miles frees his Dad after his arm is pinned. Dr. Chang still has his arm then.

Been searching and there is no actual evidence that he ever lost his arm in the first place. In the pearl orientation video (which is copyright 1980) he is moving his left hand and arm. I'd assume then the appearance of a fake arm in some of the others is the same as him using fake names.

[Tb0ne]

Hmmm...well we don't really know what the button did. Could be that something totally simple plugs up the EMP for 108 minutes. And it could be that the EMP blast wasn't right away. Could be that they had some minutes to figure out what that simple thing was, and then built the Swan station at their leisure, stopping every 108 minutes to do whatever it is pushing the button does.

One other thing, no way to know for sure, but I think jughead goes off in both timelines. It is jughead going off that causes the split. If jughead does not detonate in the primary timeline then it can't be the cause of the split...since by definition the split would have already occured.

The first way to prevent the end of the world involves someone entering the numbers of the final 6 candidates into the Swan site countdown computer and if that somehow fails, turing the fail safe key as a last resort.

The second way to prevent the end of the world is for one of the candidates to become Jacob so that the MIB can't leave the Island. I would assume the other options would be to kill the MIB or blow up the plane but blowing it up would likely be a temporary solution.

The third way to prevent the end of the world is to stop the EM energy release at the Swan site by negating it with a nuclear bomb, pouring concrete into the drilling hole, and building the Swan site with a computer where you enter the numbers of the final candidates.

The candidates crash on the island after Desmond fails to the press the button but their arrival initiates the sequence of events that allows the MIB to orchestrate Jacob's assassination and the events that lead to the instalation of the Swan site computer in the first place. In other words many events related to the Incident work in the MIB's favour. And on Flight 815 the most important of the candidates to the MIB is Locke as he is used as a pawn in his plan to kill Jacob. And as we learned tonight it's possible that the MIB can't leave the Island unless the rest of the candidates agree to go with him.

Locke's decision to stop anyone from pressing the button exposes Desmond to an even heavier dose of EMP as he turns the fail safe key in a desperate attempt to prevent the end of the world. Following the explosion Desmond is given the precog ability to prevent Charlie's death until the Freighter can be brought in. The events related to the arrival of the Freighter lead to the death of Ben's daughter, to turn the wheel of time and leave the Island. Off-island Ben kills Locke, steals his body, and convinces/manipulates everyone to return to the Island. Once they return the MIB assumes the form of Locke and leads Ben towards killing Jacob. Once Jack, Kate, Sayid, and Hurley go back to the 70's they ensure that young Ben is forever an 'Other' (and maybe claimed by the MIB?), that Faraday is killed, that Sayid is shot, and that the bomb is used unsuccessfully to stop their plane from crashing.

Tonight we saw the MIB attempt to kill or trap Desmond by throwing him into the well, but why?

During the event that crashed 815 Desmond survives heavy dose of EMP and an even heavier dose during the explosion of the hatch.

The MIB can only leave the Island if Jacob is dead and no Candidate has replaced him. In order to reset the countdown timer you enter the numbers of the final Candidates. The final minute on the timer was 108 (and the sum of the candidates numbers) and the number 108 is connected to someone with the first or last name of Wallace but we don't know who that is yet. We do know that Jacob wanted Hurley and Jack to turn the lighthouse dial to 108 but after Jack's freakout Jacob tells Hurley that that person will probably find the island anyways. We know that Widmore brought Desmond back to the island because he's the only person to survive (a) lethal dose(s) of EMP and Widmore appears to be attempting to stop the MIB from leaving the island or possibly killing him.

Widmore told Desmond that he is going to be asked to make a sacrifice, possibly one that can only be accomplished by facing a lethal dose of EMP. Could Desmond Hume be Desmond Wallace? And could the EM energy either be the MIB or is it somehow containing him?

Bare with me for a second.. when it was first revealed that the crash of 815 was caused by whatever the Swan site contained I always thought back to Walt's 'powers' as he seemed to be able to conjure up or call things to him. When Walt was reading a book about a specific bird, one crashed into the window and when held captive by the Others he caused birds to fly into the door of Room 23 (not to mention the polar bear incident). In season 1 Walt told Locke not to open the hatch even though he couldn't have known about it yet. After Walt was taken by the Others he appeared to a number of people but gave seemingly contrary advice especially when it came to the hatch. When he saw Shannon early in season 2 he tells her not to push the button and the second time he leads her into the path of the jumpy Ana-Lucia. Shannon's and later Nadia's deaths are used by the MIB to corrupt Sayid.

Walt's ability in some ways resembles Jacob's in that he's able to draw people towards him. What if the MIB has that ability too (in addition to being able to read minds, and appear as people from those memories) only the Island and later the Swan hatch helped contain that power? During the EM event that crashed 815 the MIB was able to scan Locke, seeing his weakness, and brought him to the Island so he could use him to kill Jacob.

[marwyn]

What an episode :D

Ilana blowing up was just.. random. Seriously. I had to pause for two minutes there. Then again she was pretty stupid the way she was throwing the dynamite around, so at least it's somewhat realistic.

I wonder if we're ever going to get more answers regarding her, though.

Some scenes did feel awkward. Michael's apology to Hurley wasnt nearly as good as I thought it would be. Not very well-acted, I think. And the "so that's what the Whispers are" line felt a bit stupid.

Sideways were awesome. Lots of Libby, so no one should be disappointed there. I don't get why she never appears on-island though. Is she able to move on or is she also stuck there as a ghost?

And Desmond.. yay. Seems like he's going to visit all our Losties. Maybe that's what we'll see in next ep's sideways, Desmond visiting Jack and Jin/Sun, etc?

I knew Locke would shove Desmond into that well.. I'm curious as to why he's such a danger though, that Locke wants to get rid of him so badly.

And what the heck was up with that last scene? Why does Locke needs to be killed in the sideways? What happens if Locke would die there? Or was Desmond just trying to give him a near-death experience? :P (Seems strange since with Hurley he was very subtle).

But it might set up a good thing, because Locke in the hospital = Locke and Jack will definitely meet again in the sideways.

All in all, great episode :)

Episode title spoiler

Ep 6.16 is called "What they died for", not "Why they died". Small differences, but I guess it's a different meaning :P

[Mya Stone]

I knew Locke would shove Desmond into that well.. I'm curious as to why he's such a danger though, that Locke wants to get rid of him so badly.

My latest guess? The Sideways Universe is the MiB's "holding cell" for the candidates, keeping them complacent and "dosed" on happiness/satisfaction in their lives, keeping them there so he can escape the Island-reality. Eloise is knowingly helping him, as she has her son alive and well, instead of dead by her hands in this world.

As long as the candidates are occupied/"happy," the MiB can break free of his prison, however, if they all become connected to their Island-selves, they can break free of the "prison" he has created and end him once and for all.

Desmond is the first to bridge his Island-self with his Sideways-self, and he is working on getting all of the candidates bridged as well, which is ultimately threatening the MiB's master escape plan.

At least, that's my crackpot theory for now.

[Tb0ne]

My latest guess? The Sideways Universe is the MiB's "holding cell" for the candidates, keeping them complacent and "dosed" on happiness/satisfaction in their lives, keeping them there so he can escape the Island-reality. Eloise is knowingly helping him, as she has her son alive and well, instead of dead by her hands in this world.

As long as the candidates are occupied/"happy," the MiB can break free of his prison, however, if they all become connected to their Island-selves, they can break free of the "prison" he has created and end him once and for all.

Desmond is the first to bridge his Island-self with his Sideways-self, and he is working on getting all of the candidates bridged as well, which is ultimately threatening the MiB's master escape plan.

At least, that's my crackpot theory for now.

I like it and it fits with my crackpot theory..

In O-verse the bomb and the candidate number entering computer at the Swan site contain the MIB. In the Y-verse the MIB is freed by the Incident but cannot leave the Island because Jacob still lives. Sometime prior to the Island sinking the MIB has an offer for Eloise.

[Kalbear]

EDit: I also misremembered. Miles frees his Dad after his arm is pinned. Dr. Chang still has his arm then.

Been searching and there is no actual evidence that he ever lost his arm in the first place. In the pearl orientation video (which is copyright 1980) he is moving his left hand and arm. I'd assume then the appearance of a fake arm in some of the others is the same as him using fake names.

He didn't lose the arm - but it's clear that he lost the use of it in several videos. Which goes well with the crippling. And it's basic logic; one of the things people were wondering when we met Pierre Chang was 'will we find out why he can't use his arm some of the time in the videos?' And then...he hurts his arm.

It seems more likely to me that this is meant to be the explanation for how he lost the use of his arm. And since we see him perfectly fine (and clapping) in the sideways, I think it's meant to be shown that what happened in the sideways isn't the same as that incident. I think it was a point of emphasis, even; there's always been this weird fascination with the videos and how he holds his arms, so I think that we're meant to see that as a point. At the very least it's clearly making it more ambiguous; it would be much more clear if he didn't have the use of that arm in the sideverse that he came from the jughead incident.

In O-verse the bomb and the candidate number entering computer at the Swan site contain the MIB.

So your theory is that someone is entering the candidate numbers into the computer on the island that's underneath the water?

[Slurktan]

He didn't lose the arm - but it's clear that he lost the use of it in several videos. Which goes well with the crippling. And it's basic logic; one of the things people were wondering when we met Pierre Chang was 'will we find out why he can't use his arm some of the time in the videos?' And then...he hurts his arm.

It seems more likely to me that this is meant to be the explanation for how he lost the use of his arm. And since we see him perfectly fine (and clapping) in the sideways, I think it's meant to be shown that what happened in the sideways isn't the same as that incident. I think it was a point of emphasis, even; there's always been this weird fascination with the videos and how he holds his arms, so I think that we're meant to see that as a point. At the very least it's clearly making it more ambiguous; it would be much more clear if he didn't have the use of that arm in the sideverse that he came from the jughead incident.

Dude his arm is perfectly fine and is being used in a video that is supposed to have been made 3 years after the incident. There's nothing wrong with his arm. He even claps his hands together in the Pearl orientation video.

[Kalbear]

Dude his arm is perfectly fine and is being used in a video that is supposed to have been made 3 years after the incident. There's nothing wrong with his arm. He even claps his hands together in the Pearl orientation video.

Most folks take that copyright as purposely not correct, or deliberately attempting to mislead.

But it's possible that the horrifically mangled, crushed arm healed eventually and got fine. At the very least, it certainly leaves it up for interpretation; if he had not been able to clap, it would almost certainly have indicated that he was in the same universe as Jughead.

Though here's an interesting point: Pierre Chang interacted very, very heavily with Hugo in the sideways verse towards the end. This is someone who was told by him that Miles (the older one) was his son. Why not show that at all? I mean, any kind of hint whatsoever? Doesn't that seem a bit odd to you that he wouldn't remember this large hispanic guy who told him that his son was standing right there and then proceeded to detonate a nuclear bomb on your island - and then disappeared?

[Slurktan]

Most folks take that copyright as purposely not correct, or deliberately attempting to mislead.

You realize it is remarkably easy to fake having a fake arm right? Much easier than (in universe) faking a copyright. It's almost as easy as just using a fake name. Which he does.

But it's possible that the horrifically mangled, crushed arm healed eventually and got fine. At the very least, it certainly leaves it up for interpretation; if he had not been able to clap, it would almost certainly have indicated that he was in the same universe as Jughead.

Thanks for the idiotic hyperbole, much needed. On the actual show instead of made up realities in your brain, his "horrifically mangled, crushed arm" was a bloody hand which he was cradling. There is nothing "crushed" about his arm. Stop with the asinine bullshit.

Though here's an interesting point: Pierre Chang interacted very, very heavily with Hugo in the sideways verse towards the end. This is someone who was told by him that Miles (the older one) was his son. Why not show that at all? I mean, any kind of hint whatsoever? Doesn't that seem a bit odd to you that he wouldn't remember this large hispanic guy who told him that his son was standing right there and then proceeded to detonate a nuclear bomb on your island - and then disappeared?

Because what is he supposed to say to him? "Oh hey I knew you 30 years ago when you helped set off a nuclear bomb in order to reverse a sequence of events that happened 30 years in your future. But you won't remember all of that because of a possible alternate reality situation and all of this will simply make me look completely insane. Oh and here's your award for charity"?

I'm curious did you actually think about this point before you posted it?

[boiled leather]

What an episode :D

Ilana blowing up was just.. random. Seriously. I

a few things, in my typical non-eloquent way. Illana blowing up was NOT random. It was the Mirror to Dr Arzt bowing up in Season 2. Just like Desmond running down Locke was the Mirror of Ben killing Locke to bring them all back together. I can almost see a Mirror event to going back to the island on another flight. I'm not ruling that out.

that was the best episode of the season for me. and most have been beyond excellent.

[Kalbear]

Thanks for the idiotic hyperbole, much needed. On the actual show instead of made up realities in your brain, his "horrifically mangled, crushed arm" was a bloody hand which he was cradling. There is nothing "crushed" about his arm. Stop with the asinine bullshit.

It wasn't hyperbole. His arm was caught in massive machinery. Yeah, they didn't go all supergory, but is it that odd to think that he would have had some serious damage to it? A giant tower with

Seriously - what's with the attitude?

Because what is he supposed to say to him? "Oh hey I knew you 30 years ago when you helped set off a nuclear bomb in order to reverse a sequence of events that happened 30 years in your future. But you won't remember all of that because of a possible alternate reality situation and all of this will simply make me look completely insane. Oh and here's your award for charity"?

I'm curious did you actually think about this point before you posted it?

I think it would have been really easy for him to say something meaningful to just him like "I've been waiting to meet you for a very long time" with a nice nod and a wink to the audience. Again, it's not something I would have expected the writers to spend a lot of time on, but I'm surprised they didn't acknowledge it at all. Instead, there was nary a sign that he knew Hugo at all.

Also, the untangled eps with Pierre Chang are awesomely funny.

[Kalbear]

Okay, here's one question I haven't seen answered yet. We know that Eloise in the real world got Faraday's journal after killing Faraday.

And we also know that she had been fulfilling his destiny ever since then. Well...one of the things she does in the real world is push Faraday away from music, telling him he has to be a physicist. She does this because she knows that he needs to do all these things described in the journal, etc.

But in the altverse, she doesn't push him that way. But...why? If the split happens at Jughead blowing up, she would have already received the journal and already have killed Faraday. From her point of view (the journal entries) nothing would have been different. There's no reason for her not to push Faraday to physics, as the main reason she did so (her killing him and getting the journal) would have happened in both times.

So either she doesn't push him, knowing that he doesn't have a great destiny any more (perhaps because the island sank and she believes that the journal is a weird artifact out of time that (in her timeline) was never started by anyone, or her killing Faraday never happened. From an emotional point of view it's a bit harder for me to reconcile; the journal didn't have anything about the island sinking, so unless she was sure that the island didn't come back at some point there's no reason for her to believe that that future isn't coming true.

Gah. This is hard to think about. :P

[Demonblade]

You're still looking at things as if time is completely linear (i.e. in the real world). She killed the thirty-two year old Faraday when he went back in time to before he was born. But Jughead changed things so that Faraday doesn't go back in time in order for her to kill him. Hence, the alternate timeline. In this alternate timeline Faraday has yet to travel back in time, and he won't, which creates the paradox and the big question mark as to what happens when something that happened already cannot happen because time-traveling fucked everything up. The Losties did travel back in time, which is why there is such a problem now.

[Kalbear]

I'm trying to look at it from the point of view of Eloise.

We know that she got his journal. We know that she has been following the journal (in the normal world) on some level, and one of the things she did was push Faraday from music.

But in the sideways, that doesn't happen. What I don't understand is why. The impetus for pushing him away from music was because he was destined to be this physicist - and the reason she knew that was because she found his journal after she killed him. Which was before Jughead...which means that (if time is a Y) happened in both universes.

If the Y idea is correct, Eloise always kills Faraday and always gets his journal. And I could see some twisted logic that says that in the sideways, because the island sank and events didn't happen, she felt free to do whatever the hell she wanted. But isn't an easier explanation that she never killed Faraday?

[marwyn]

You're still looking at things as if time is completely linear (i.e. in the real world). She killed the thirty-two year old Faraday when he went back in time to before he was born. But Jughead changed things so that Faraday doesn't go back in time in order for her to kill him. Hence, the alternate timeline. In this alternate timeline Faraday has yet to travel back in time, and he won't, which creates the paradox and the big question mark as to what happens when something that happened already cannot happen because time-traveling fucked everything up. The Losties did travel back in time, which is why there is such a problem now.

The two time-lines are co-existing, so there is no paradox at all. Alt-Faraday never has to go back in time, because island-Faraday already does.

[Werthead]

But is that enough? Can the Sideverse survive as an orphaned timeline, or does it need to have better 'foundations' in a sense, namely that this alternate timeline is reliant for its existence on things that happened in a different timeline. This may mean that the Sideverse is unstable and may disappear or need to be reconciled with the main timeline.

In addition, Eloise having Faraday's journal is pretty much required to explain how she knows WTF is going on. If she doesn't, we need an alternate explanation for how Eloise knows everything, which means another burst of exposition very late in the game. The journal simply explains everything and allows the writers to move on to more pressing matters.