The Wheel of Time...

[Vegan Rob]

Tor appears to have announced Towers of Midnight will be released 26/10/10

Continuing from the previous thread, I thought it was pretty clear (and at first glance too)who was who on the PoD e-book cover. That said, I'm not buying it since the only thing worse than reading 95% of that book would be buying a new version of it and reading it again. Seriously, I love WoT but I cannot stand this particular volume.

[Renasko]

I wouldn't buy any e-book for a story that I already have. I do like the art they've been coming up with for the covers, but pretty art won't open up my wallet. :P

Currently on a WoT re-read to build up to the new release. 'Bout to start 'Winter's Heart'.

[Shryke]

Tor appears to have announced Towers of Midnight will be released 26/10/10

Continuing from the previous thread, I thought it was pretty clear (and at first glance too)who was who on the PoD e-book cover. That said, I'm not buying it since the only thing worse than reading 95% of that book would be buying a new version of it and reading it again. Seriously, I love WoT but I cannot stand this particular volume.

Have you read it recently?

I was talking about this on the last thread, but having reread all the books just now, POD is a pretty good one.

It's main problem is it got a real bad rap because it's the first really short book of the series. Compared to the volumes that precede it, it's damn short but what's in there is very well done.

The only other issue is it's got a slow repetitive start, but alot of the books in the series have that. (Although it is one of the worst of the lot. So many repeat descriptions of the people they are traveling with)

[SpaceChampion]

I just finished my re-read last night. I think I started it around a year ago, stopped to read TGS, then continued on with the re-read to finish TGS for the second time now. Nice to hear a release date for TOM!

TGS spoilers:

Verin missed 3 Black Ajah among the rebels, 3 more among the Tower. Likely that these six were part of a set of two hearts who Verin was not able to track down (in 70 years of searching) because they were cut off from other hearts by deaths among the BA, or more likely because their connections were to the Supreme Council BA's like Alviarin or Galina that Verin was not able to expose directly.

Speculation:

the BA from the rebel camp has traveling so I would not be surprised to see that some of those missing who were not on Verin's list were in fact kidnapped and then converted by 13+13 Myrddraal. Now that they are exposed I would expect the Black Ajah to start kidnapping Aes Sedai left and right.

[Shryke]

The big problem I had with the end of TGS was:

Egwene never thinks about or mentions the full 1/3rd of the sisters who aren't even involved with the White Tower.

Are there no Black Ajah among them somehow? What the fuck?

[SpaceChampion]

The big problem I had with the end of TGS was:

Egwene never thinks about or mentions the full 1/3rd of the sisters who aren't even involved with the White Tower.

Are there no Black Ajah among them somehow? What the fuck?

There was about 75 in the rebel camp and maybe as much as 75 in the Tower. (guessing, because 60 are said to escape but we don't have a number on how many were caught, other that the 3 not on the list.) About 80 in total escaped. From the list of 200, that makes about 50 out of the Tower from that 1/3rd (approx. 400), including Liandrin's 13, some of whom are now dead. So at least 135 Black Ajah are roaming the world, maybe as much as 150 but no more. That's quite enough to do some damage. Yes, Egwene didn't think about them during her POVs, but she might have taken Rand's attitude that there was nothing she could do about that so just move on. Hopefully Egwene POV won't be totally ignored during TOM so we can see how competent she really is.

[Vegan Rob]

Have you read it recently?

I was talking about this on the last thread, but having reread all the books just now, POD is a pretty good one.

It's main problem is it got a real bad rap because it's the first really short book of the series. Compared to the volumes that precede it, it's damn short but what's in there is very well done.

The only other issue is it's got a slow repetitive start, but alot of the books in the series have that. (Although it is one of the worst of the lot. So many repeat descriptions of the people they are traveling with)

You know that joke about "74.6% of statistics get made up on the spot"? Maybe my 95% bad rating was a bit, um, exaggerated...

Seriously though, I came to WoT quite late in the series so I was able to read most of them back-to-back. First time through PoD was the where I first wanted to start skimming through fairly lengthy sections. It's not as bad as I first made out, but it isn't at the standard of, say, TSR. I also think it suffers that it's arguably only a partial novel/the next three books could have been better as two. The opening section featured on the cover of the e-book for instance could have been included in ACOS. There is story in here but too much filler IMO.

[Shryke]

I'd say the beginnings all filler, the last chunk is all good meat, but it's still not a full meal.

[Caligula_K]

You know that joke about "74.6% of statistics get made up on the spot"? Maybe my 95% bad rating was a bit, um, exaggerated...

Seriously though, I came to WoT quite late in the series so I was able to read most of them back-to-back. First time through PoD was the where I first wanted to start skimming through fairly lengthy sections. It's not as bad as I first made out, but it isn't at the standard of, say, TSR. I also think it suffers that it's arguably only a partial novel/the next three books could have been better as two. The opening section featured on the cover of the e-book for instance could have been included in ACOS. There is story in here but too much filler IMO.

Nope, I'm going to say it's a pretty awful book, and this coming from someone who enjoyed Crown of Swords and who read all the books up to CoT straight. I definitely didn't care that it wasn't as long as the others- in fact, I was happy about that, since I thought we'd get a more concise story. Instead, we got all the female characters walking to a farm for 150 pages to use the Bowl of Winds: an extremely lame plotline made even more lame and boring. If you're going to have filler, at least don't make it some of the most boring and aggravating filler I've ever read. Then there was Perrin continuing to be destroyed as a character and the beginning of the awful Faile gets captured plotline, and a Rand plotline that was pretty much irrelevant (ooh, a stalemate! Exciting!). For me, this is the second worst book, behind Crossroads.

[Shryke]

:huh:?

We have a few small chapters with Perrin establishing what he's up to and that's it. Then Perrin meets Masema (who's even crazier then before)and Faile gets kidnapped right at the end.

And Rand's story was in no way irrelevant as the whole thing is just a few chapters on his attack on the Seanchan (and the pointlessness and disaster of the conflict on both sides) and mostly his rapidly growing insanity.

[Vegan Rob]

I'm somewhere inbetween you two (Shrike and Caligula). There are some good sections but the gold doesn't shine enough that the dross can be forgiven. I ascribe this to RJ/Tor extending the series to twelve from the original six - RJ would eventually have needed everyone in particular places for the finale now several books further ahead, and that unfortunately meant faffing around with some of the storylines. Otherwise I think we'd have seen the lame "stalemate" ending here and the cleansing of the source in the same volume, among other things. The mid-late books definitely showed a drop in quality from the earlier ones.

[Larry.]

I think author Adam Roberts has an interesting take on Winter's Heart. Never thought about connecting some of the dots that he does, but it kinda fits...

[kuenjato]

I think author Adam Roberts has an interesting take on Winter's Heart. Never thought about connecting some of the dots that he does, but it kinda fits...

Those reviews are fantastic, and a nice counterpoint to some of the revisionist drivel that sometimes infects this board. Thanks for sharing.

[Larry.]

I like the one he did on CoT as well. There is tea!

[Old Nan]

That's a bit unfair. Crossroads of Twilight was certainly a bad book, and one of the worst of the series (I'd vote for Eye of the World and most of The Dragon Reborn as being worse, personally), but his examples don't prove it. It was ill-plotted and at times the prose was clunky, but just about every book ever published could have bad metaphors and idiosyncratic character traits pulled out of context and ridiculed MST3K style.

It's something of a shame that Elayne's character development came contemporaneous to the interminable Perrin/Faile nonsense, as I've found her storyline to be one of the more interesting/entertaining ones upon rereads, baths included. The same goes for Mat, for that matter. His character was barely two-dimensional until Lord of Chaos, and got most of its further development thereafter. It would be interesting to see how a read of the books between LoC and Knife of Dreams would go with Perrin excised...

Anyway, the Winter's Heart thematic explanation is hilarious.

[jurble]

I think author Adam Roberts has an interesting take on Winter's Heart. Never thought about connecting some of the dots that he does, but it kinda fits...

HAAHAHHHAAHAHAHAAHA. Amazing.

[Humble Asskicker]

I had been doing a chapter by chapter review, but then I got carried away reading the books and couldn't stand taking time aside to write. I wanted to read. The earlier books were as good as I remembered.

But now I'm hitting the point where things are diving. It's painful to read.

I figure writing a chapter review will be cathartic and give me the energy to continue. So here's the first Rand chapter that I really don't like (I've been struggling with the Elayne and Nynaeve chapters since book five).

Here goes.

Book 6

Chapter 41:

Okay, so fairly early on we get a gratuitous description. Min couldn’t “blot her face” with just any handkerchief. We of course need to know that it’s lace-edge. The devil is in the details, folks, and no detail is minuscule enough to escape notice (shame on Jordan for not describing the color of the handkerchief body and the lace-edge). Furthermore, it’s not enough to note that there are Aiel about, but it’s essential that each point they are stationed at is related. How the fuck can we get the proper image in our minds on how well guarded the area is if we don’t know about the Aiel who “stood on marble balconies or glided across high, colonnaded walks like leopards”?

And good thing RJ repeats to us that on the tallest dome Andor’s banner is “stirring in the breeze.” If we don’t take time away from moving onto this actual “plot” business, the readers might forget that Rand kept Andor’s flag flying. He’s not occupying Caemlyn, he’s tending it until Elayne arrives. It’s not like he brings that one up every time he mentions her, so this has the manifold purpose of drilling into our head (yet again) what exactly Caemlyn looks like, but from Min’s point of view, and reminding us (yet again) that Rand wants Elayne to have the throne. ‘Cause he made out with her, and that’s the best judge of someone’s competence as a ruler of a nation.

We also need a reminder of what other flags are in Caemlyn since even though we the readers are intimately familiar with every nook and cranny of Caemlyn, this is a new experience for this particular POV, and it gives a great deal of depth to character to have familiar descriptions mentally re-described to us.

Of course, if this ostensibly redundant material is in fact essential, it’s pretty much needless to say that what Min is wearing is paramount. Who gives a shit about things happening if we don’t have the proper image slammed into our minds? Min isn’t just wearing red wool. She’s wearing coat and breeches that “were the finest, softest wool that could be found in Salidar, in a pale rose, with tiny blue-and-white flowers embroidered on lapels and cuffs and down the outsides of the legs. Her shirt was cut like a boy’s too, but in cream silk.” Thank god I know this, because I don’t know how I could endure the future interplay of this chapter without picturing the tiny blue-and-white flowers embroidered on Min’s fucking lapels and the outside of her legs.

By the way, it seems strange that she’s wearing coat and breeches, and a shirt cut like a boy’s. Isn’t that what males wear? Wait a second, this vaguely tickles my recollection, almost as if this were a character idiosyncrasy to make Min distinct, something that’s been described at least forty or fifty times already...but damn my poor memory, I can’t be sure. Oh, yes, RJ predicted my dilemma. He provides the fifty-first explanation. We learn that Min was a tomboy as a child and refused to dress as a “proper lady.” Her aunts tried to stuff her in a dress, but she has been resistant ever since. However, she briefly considers wearing a “dress in silk, cut snug at the bodice and low....” Well this is new. Min is considering changing her apparel selection because of her crush on Rand? Although call it déjà vu, but somehow I could swear that I’ve read this factoid before. And before that. And about seventeen times before that. It must be my imagination.

Some important bits before the POV shift: Enaila is going to marry! Oh my God! No way! Fiery tempered Enaila! Shut up! Also, Rand is beautiful and looks tired.

Some crucial bits which the chapter could not survive without. Rand’s coat is red and “worked heavily with gold.” The spearhead he is holding is “green and white” and tasseled. Both thrones in the room are gilded (it drives me crazy if an author neglects to tell me if a throne is gilded; it drives me even more crazy when an author doesn’t mention it every time the throne is mentioned, because then I’m stuck wondering whether the gild was removed or not and can’t focus on the scene).

Now for Rand’s POV. You know, there have been threads in General Chatter about guys who are inept about picking up signals that a female is interested in them. The worst of these guys sound like a total pimp compared to the Dragon Reborn. Rand better thank his lucky fucking stars about the Pattern and manifest destiny, or that dude would never get laid. Min “plumps herself on his lap,” and later “wriggled around on his lap in a way that made him clear his throat,” goes on about how much of a woman she is, gets jealous when he mentions affection for other women, seems willing to do just about anything for him (indeed, says that straight out), and keeps kissing him, and Rand hasn’t the slightest clue that she might be interested in him. That sort of thing is just what friends do. A Japanese anime douchebag would put two and two together if that happened, but not Rand.

In fact, Min pretty much has to force herself onto him in order to fuck him, and later he interprets this as him forcing himself on her. I don’t think it’s realistically plausible that a guy could be that fucking dumb. Even a nine year old autistic kid would at some point say, “Hey wait just a moment, I think she kind of likes you, dude.” A nine year old autistic kid who spent 24/7 around women like Rand would say “It’s painfully obvious that she wants to fuck you silly, bro.”

But enough ranting, let’s get to the meat of this chapter. Apparently, the throne room is still richly decorated. There are tapestries and “inlaid chests and tables...golden bowls and tall vases of Sea Folk porcelain in niches.” I’m relieved to read that that stuff is still there. It would have screwed with the image set by RJ’s last few descriptions of that place.

There’s a brief, dangerously plot-like discourse about Rand’s knowledge of Salidar, but this is thankfully rushed through so we can get to Elayne’s letter, which gives suitable ammunition for another passage on how men are from Mars and women are from Venus.

And then of course the aforementioned part of Min throwing herself at Rand follows, and Rand explaining his feelings for Elayne. As we’ve had explained to us several times before, Rand is a hard motherfucker. After all, men like him “radiate death.” He’s actually made laws where people have to...hang...if proven guilty of certain serious crimes (tell me that isn’t exceptionally hardcore for a ruler). Provided the offenders aren’t female of course, because hard motherfuckers flinch at hanging chicks who commit treason and shit. You’re not hard if you are willing to do that shit. You’re evil. So, Rand the hardcore motherfucker, as hardcore motherfuckers are wont to do, whines to Min how he has to keep loved ones away because they might die and he totally couldn’t handle that shit.

Anyway, it’s also mentioned that Rand still naively thinks that he can give Elayne the throne of Andor. You know, the one he took by force of conquest from the previous occupant, a Forsaken that ousted Morgase. Silly Rand. What audacity, to believe that conquest by arms has anything to do with dominance. Why, Elayne is axiomatically entitled to the throne. “Give” suggests that by some power, Rand could facilitate Elayne’s acquisition of the throne, which she would otherwise come by with great difficulty. As if Rand is currently in control of the throne and Elayne is not, and that should whim strike him as such, he has the power to impede her obtainment of said throne while still retaining control of it. It doesn’t matter that he wants her to have it, because it will settle the territory; no, the semantics of it, the notion that he has control and Elayne doesn’t is what’s galling. Arrogant asshole. Fortunately, Elayne sets him straight on that count later on.

What follows is some plot-pertinent events. Before you get too upset about shit suddenly happening, let me put your mind at ease by specifying that it is extremely minor. Melaine is going to have twins. This leads us off the path of even vaguely plot related as the discussion digresses into childbirth and how squeamish all men are about it. When Rand calls them on it, we’re given a passage that lends considerable depth of character: The women fidget at their clothes, which an intelligent reader would understand is a universal female method of coping with nerves and awkwardness. And irritation. And surprise. And anger. And every single emotion or thought a female has.

At this point, the roller coaster ride of this chapter reaches its apex, and with a blazing burst of speed something plot-relevant occurs. We learn that the Wise Ones’ attitude regarding Aes Sedai has changed to such a degree that they not only are no longer wary of them, but actually contemptuous, which shapes the future Aes Sedai/Wise One interactions for the proceeding volumes of the series, up to book 12. Just as the reader experiences the shock of that rush, the ride screeches to a halts so we can take some time to learn about every single fucking sister in the embassy, down to her Ajah and nationality, most of which fortunately proves to be completely irrelevant to anything at all. Because fuck the Hemingway theory of writing. Fuck it in the ear.

To conclude, with all sarcasm aside, this chapter is a failure in so many ways. In light of the proximate chapters, that means it earns high marks.

[Old Nan]

If you're a fan of the Hemingway theory of writing, fantasy's probably a bad choice for a genre and Jordan's definitely a bad choice for an author.

(This is not to say I think his prose is generally more than mediocre, but Hemingway's is worse than that putative nine-year old autistic child's. Jordan's condescending moments are obvious and can be glossed over; Hemingway's never not condescending. Jordan's repetition/summarizing of previous books does become irritating, though.)

[HP Loveshaft]

To conclude, with all sarcasm aside, this chapter is a failure in so many ways. In light of the proximate chapters, that means it earns high marks.

This was hilarious. I haven't seen your chapter reviews before, time to dig through the old thread and find them.

I haven't thought about WoT for a while, but that whole business around the throne of Camelyn was so weird and hammered home so many times. Who knew Rand trying to pass the throne to the former Queen's daughter was such a dick move.

[Shryke]

This was hilarious. I haven't seen your chapter reviews before, time to dig through the old thread and find them.

I haven't thought about WoT for a while, but that whole business around the throne of Camelyn was so weird and hammered home so many times. Who knew Rand trying to pass the throne to the former Queen's daughter was such a dick move.

It really depends on how you view it.

How would Americans feel if President Bush had said he was "giving Obama the Presidency after he was done with it"?

Rand saying he will give the throne to Elayne implies he has any right to give it in the first place. Now you can say "force of arms/he controls Camelyn/etc", but the Andorians don't see it that way at all.