The Wheel of Time...

[The Evil Hat]

That was a slight change of tone from your earlier reviews, but absolutely hilarious because of it. And I understood the throne thing, but it's one of the many details that could've made an interesting part of the background/characterization if only it hadn't been hammered home so many god damn times.

[Maithanet]

It really depends on how you view it.

How would Americans feel if President Bush had said he was "giving Obama the Presidency after he was done with it"?

Shryke, you know enough about politics to know this is a terrible comparison. Obama and Bush are both American. Bush did not execute a military coup in the US. Your scenario completely leaves out the third party of the deposed ruler of Andor (Rahvin).

Rand and his forces staged a successful coup on the Andoran leadership. Rahvin was killed, and no one else present wanted to claim the throne, so it was Rand's by force of might.

Because gateways were used, very little of the country actually witnessed this, but we all know it occurred. Andorans may not have their facts straight or want to accept this, but it happened. Rand is basically saying "yes, I performed this coup but I don't want to cause too much trouble, so I want to reinstate the old pre-Forsaken order". Andorans can say he doesn't have the right to decide who rules in Andor, but they are wrong, because he clearly has the power to decide who rule. It's a cruel world. Elayne needs to deal with the fact that Rand is a far bigger fish than she, even when he's standing in her throne room.

[fionwe1987]

Shryke, you know enough about politics to know this is a terrible comparison. Obama and Bush are both American. Bush did not execute a military coup in the US. Your scenario completely leaves out the third party of the deposed ruler of Andor (Rahvin).

Rand and his forces staged a successful coup on the Andoran leadership. Rahvin was killed, and no one else present wanted to claim the throne, so it was Rand's by force of might.

Because gateways were used, very little of the country actually witnessed this, but we all know it occurred. Andorans may not have their facts straight or want to accept this, but it happened. Rand is basically saying "yes, I performed this coup but I don't want to cause too much trouble, so I want to reinstate the old pre-Forsaken order". Andorans can say he doesn't have the right to decide who rules in Andor, but they are wrong, because he clearly has the power to decide who rule. It's a cruel world. Elayne needs to deal with the fact that Rand is a far bigger fish than she, even when he's standing in her throne room.

You're not making much sense. There is no evidence (for obvious reasons) that the population at large knows that Gaebril was Rahvin, or that Morghase was controlled by him and ran away.

As most people see it, Rand used saidin (already something to make them uncomfortable) and killed their Queen and one of the Lords of the land. He then got foreign troops, including the much hated Aiel to hold the capital. Why shouldn't they see him as anything but an arrogant invader trying to decide who should rule them? Why should they accept him?

As for Elayne herself, some of the opposition from the nobility comes from the stuff Rahvin made Morghase do. Her support base was axed, and they took time to be convinced that Elayne would not go down a similar path before showing support to her rule. Given that they had doubts about her fitness, they were obviously piqued that a foreign power like the Dragon Reborn was trying to ram down a potentially disastrous Queen down their throats.

[Maithanet]

You're not making much sense. There is no evidence (for obvious reasons) that the population at large knows that Gaebril was Rahvin, or that Morghase was controlled by him and ran away.

As most people see it, Rand used saidin (already something to make them uncomfortable) and killed their Queen and one of the Lords of the land. He then got foreign troops, including the much hated Aiel to hold the capital. Why shouldn't they see him as anything but an arrogant invader trying to decide who should rule them? Why should they accept him?

Well, I think Rand would do quite well to let people know that the Forsaken are out and he's been fighting them, but that's not really here nor there.

I don't think that the everyday Andoran should neccesarily accept him, since Rand has made no real PR effort. However, the people lecturing Rand on the fact that the Andoran throne is not "his to give" are not commoners. Elayne certainly should know better. She can say that he has no right to decide who rules Andor, but in doing so she is willfully ignoring the facts: She knows Rahvin was controlling her mother and therefore Andor. Rand killed Rahvin, leaving Andor effectively leaderless. He has appointed her as the successor, since she is who would be on the throne if Rahvin hadn't come. To get all huffy about him deciding these things is ridiculous, since obviously without his help Rahvin would sit on the throne still. If Rand felt that the purposes of the light were served by having someone else rule instead of her, he could depose her with ease. Obviously he would need to wage some sort of aggressive campaign in order to actually subjugate Andor, but it's well within his power to do so; he's just got enough sense to know that would be incredibly stupid for a variety of reasons.

As for Elayne herself, some of the opposition from the nobility comes from the stuff Rahvin made Morghase do. Her support base was axed, and they took time to be convinced that Elayne would not go down a similar path before showing support to her rule. Given that they had doubts about her fitness, they were obviously piqued that a foreign power like the Dragon Reborn was trying to ram down a potentially disastrous Queen down their throats.

Sure.

[Galactus]

Well, I think Rand would do quite well to let people know that the Forsaken are out and he's been fighting them, but that's not really here nor there.

He has said it. It's just that people are... Kind of not exactly willing to believe.

[williamjm]

He has said it. It's just that people are... Kind of not exactly willing to believe.

I suspect many of the False Dragons have said the same sort of thing in the past to justify their deeds.

[Maithanet]

I suspect many of the False Dragons have said the same sort of thing in the past to justify their deeds.

Certainly possible. But I still contend that Rand could do more to make this fact widely known. But given that the heroes don't even convey information to each other, expecting information to be widely disseminated to the populace is probably a pipe dream.

[fionwe1987]

Well, I think Rand would do quite well to let people know that the Forsaken are out and he's been fighting them, but that's not really here nor there.

But he did do that. No one wanted to believe, because they're afraid of it being true. It is easier to label it a lie he concocted to justify his actions.

I don't think that the everyday Andoran should neccesarily accept him, since Rand has made no real PR effort. However, the people lecturing Rand on the fact that the Andoran throne is not "his to give" are not commoners. Elayne certainly should know better. She can say that he has no right to decide who rules Andor, but in doing so she is willfully ignoring the facts: She knows Rahvin was controlling her mother and therefore Andor. Rand killed Rahvin, leaving Andor effectively leaderless. He has appointed her as the successor, since she is who would be on the throne if Rahvin hadn't come. To get all huffy about him deciding these things is ridiculous, since obviously without his help Rahvin would sit on the throne still. If Rand felt that the purposes of the light were served by having someone else rule instead of her, he could depose her with ease. Obviously he would need to wage some sort of aggressive campaign in order to actually subjugate Andor, but it's well within his power to do so; he's just got enough sense to know that would be incredibly stupid for a variety of reasons.

But you're not understanding that Elayne's anger at Rand is precisely because she's close to him. If Rand were just a stranger, Elayne would have been aware of the political implications of his removal of Rahvin, and she'd have eaten humble pie because she cannot match his strength in arms.

But she's his lover, and is carrying his kids. And so she can, and does complain of the fact that by publicly stating that he will "give" her the throne, he's made it tougher for her to actually take it.

Picture for a moment that you're Luan or Pelivar or one of those nobles who supported Morghase. You care nothing about getting more power for yourself, but you care about Andor, and you're really concern about the nutty way the previous Queen ruled the land for the past few months. Either she went crazy suddenly (hardly something that inspires confidence in the ability of her 18 year old daughter) or a Forsaken was controlling her and making her do crazy stuff. The second option is scarier, and now here comes along another guy who is even more scary than a Forsaken, "giving" the throne to Elayne. You wonder what this means. Is Elayne being controlled by the Dragon Reborn? Will she also repeat the insane actions of her mother? Does it really make sense to support her?

And Elayne knows that these are exactly the kind of doubts in the minds of Nobles whose support she should have been certain of. Rand's whole "giving the throne" thing just made an already political situation even more difficult for her, and that is why she's pissed.

[Shryke]

Shryke, you know enough about politics to know this is a terrible comparison. Obama and Bush are both American. Bush did not execute a military coup in the US. Your scenario completely leaves out the third party of the deposed ruler of Andor (Rahvin).

Rand and his forces staged a successful coup on the Andoran leadership. Rahvin was killed, and no one else present wanted to claim the throne, so it was Rand's by force of might.

Because gateways were used, very little of the country actually witnessed this, but we all know it occurred. Andorans may not have their facts straight or want to accept this, but it happened. Rand is basically saying "yes, I performed this coup but I don't want to cause too much trouble, so I want to reinstate the old pre-Forsaken order". Andorans can say he doesn't have the right to decide who rules in Andor, but they are wrong, because he clearly has the power to decide who rule. It's a cruel world. Elayne needs to deal with the fact that Rand is a far bigger fish than she, even when he's standing in her throne room.

You can say "It's his by force" but the Andorians DON'T ACCEPT THAT.

The same way an American doesn't accept that the departing Presidency is the Presidents to give. It's up to the people to give it to the next President.

Rand is viewed as a Usurper. The throne is not his to give away and the Andorians won't accept anyone he appoints. They demand the right to have their "own" King/Queen and not one appointed by some foreign power.

By saying he's going to "give the throne to Elayne", Rand puts Elayne in a bad situation where it's hard for her to take the throne without it looking like she's his puppet (and thus leaving her not accepted by the rest of Andor).

Also, it's stated OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN that almost nobody believes that the Forsaken are who Rand says they are. Shit, even the Aes Sedai don't believe him.

[Renasko]

Re-reading 'A Crown of Swords', and in particular, the 'Ta'veren' chapter in which Rand seals the Sea Folk to him, has left me wondering something. How will they feature in 'A Memory of Light'? Rand makes mention of the Seanchean directly, and how the Atha'an Miere will keep an eye out for when they choose to strike, and inform him of this. Will they aid Rand in his war* with them? I don't recall them featuring in 'the Gathering Storm'...

*Assuming no peace treaty is brokered between now and then.

[fionwe1987]

Re-reading 'A Crown of Swords', and in particular, the 'Ta'veren' chapter in which Rand seals the Sea Folk to him, has left me wondering something. How will they feature in 'A Memory of Light'? Rand makes mention of the Seanchean directly, and how the Atha'an Miere will keep an eye out for when they choose to strike, and inform him of this. Will they aid Rand in his war* with them? I don't recall them featuring in 'the Gathering Storm'...

The Sea Folk do feature in tGS. We see Harine, questioning Rand about the Cleansing, in one of the bigger continuity errors Brandon made.

They will probably prove very willing to help Rand against the Seanchan, given that their leaders were executed by the Seanchan. But since the Seanchan are all on land, it seems somewhat unlikely.

[Shryke]

I still think the Sea Folk will bear the brunt of the initial stages of the invasion from Shara, but some people think I'm crazy about that.

[Rhom]

The Sea Folk do feature in tGS. We see Harine, questioning Rand about the Cleansing, in one of the bigger continuity errors Brandon made.

I must have missed that... how was it a continuity error?

[fionwe1987]

I must have missed that... how was it a continuity error?

Because Harine was on the scene during the Cleansing, and her sister actually was a part of one of the defense teams and felt Nynaeve channel that huge amount of Saidar.

[Rhom]

Because Harine was on the scene during the Cleansing, and her sister actually was a part of one of the defense teams and felt Nynaeve channel that huge amount of Saidar.

Ohhhhh...

[elmis]

You really did put the most negative spin you could on that one, Shryke.

First of all, it's not a democracy, power is handed by right of birth, not votes from the people. Second, Rand and his forces are keeping the nation from imploding without a center of power - you see this when his forces are expelled from the city and a civil war ensues over who should be Queen.

You could easily view Andor as some country where the rightful leader died, and UN Forces keept the peace until the next rightful leader could assume control.

No laws were changed, order was upheld, the only thing Rand is guilty of is squatting in the Royal Palace.

[Old Nan]

Except that by all right and custom, the UN has no right beyond its force of arms to keep the peace, and the noble houses do have the legitimate authority to contest for an apparently vacant throne, even though this creates 'disorder.' An extranational caretaker holding a spot in line is less legitimate than Arymilla seizing the throne; if House Trakand and its allies cannot hold it, it's no longer theirs, fair and square. But for the Dragon (or Illian or Cairhien or the Whitecloaks, for that matter) to seize Andor and dictate that its politicians treat a vacancy as other than a vacancy is no different than declaring that a vacancy is to be filled by the candidate of the Dragon's choosing who will receive the crown from the Dragon's hands; either way is to directly assault Andor's national sovereignty.

As Elayne says,

She had duties long overdue in Caemlyn. All she had to deal with there was convincing the stronger Houses that the Lion Throne was hers despite her long absence, that and handling a rival claimant or two. There might not have been any had she been there when her mother vanished, when she died, but the history of Andor said there would be by now.

[Werthead]

They will probably prove very willing to help Rand against the Seanchan, given that their leaders were executed by the Seanchan. But since the Seanchan are all on land, it seems somewhat unlikely.

Most of the Seanchan fleet in Ebou Dar, representing more than half the Seanchan naval forces in the Westlands IIRC, was destroyed in the battle between WH and CoT. However a significant number remains docked at Tanchico, the Aile Somera and Jafar and possibly at Falme, so the Sea Folk could still fight against them. However, with the Seanchan likely to ally with Rand either in ToM or AMoL, it would appear that the Sea Folk have no huge role to play in the Last Battle, unless they sail up the Erinin to provide naval support in battles near Tar Valon.

[Shryke]

You really did put the most negative spin you could on that one, Shryke.

First of all, it's not a democracy, power is handed by right of birth, not votes from the people.

Nope, dead wrong. As said MANY MANY times (far too damn many frankly) it's a kind of a bit democracy. The old school ones where the vast majority of people can't vote.

The Queen isn't decided by birth, it's decided by whoever has the most Major Houses behind them.

Second, Rand and his forces are keeping the nation from imploding without a center of power - you see this when his forces are expelled from the city and a civil war ensues over who should be Queen.

It's not a civil war, it's a Succession. It's like the Andorian version of an election. Except with kidnapping and alot of armed men shaking their fists at each other.

You could easily view Andor as some country where the rightful leader died, and UN Forces keept the peace until the next rightful leader could assume control.

No laws were changed, order was upheld, the only thing Rand is guilty of is squatting in the Royal Palace.

ACtually laws were changed. Specifically the law that describes who ges to take the throne.

I mean, really, have you even read these books? This shit is gone over like 50 fucking boring times.

[Rhom]

Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.