The Wheel of Time...

[Shryke]

Apart from Thomas Covenant, Shannara, Riftwar, The Belgariad and, most notably, Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, which all preceded it.

It was the original giant epic fantasy series that became an enormous giga-seller in the early 1990s and opened the door to series that were bigger than three books with continuous narratives (Brooks, Feist and Eddings being divided into small arcs and Williams being a single trilogy, albeit one of colossal size) though.

Yes, that was my point. It's the first big series. Everything before that was really a trilogy.

[Humble Asskicker]

To return to a previous discussion:

However the Andorans feel is irrelevant. The long and short of it is, they are occupied by a force that far, far outmatches them. By the time Rand takes control of Andor, he is **the** power of the land. And he only grows even more powerful with the Asha’man, Aes Sedai servants, and then the sacking of Illian. Not factoring the Seanchan, Rand is the most powerful conqueror since Hawkwing. By the end of book seven, he’s more powerful than Hawkwing ever managed. Easily.

If Rand didn’t have concerns outside of conquering, if he hadn’t gotten himself some nookie from Elayne which therefore convinced him that she would be the fittest ruler of Caemlyn – if he wanted anyone else to be his puppet ruler there, then that’s what would have happened, and there would be no force in the world that could have stopped it. Whatever allies Elayne could muster in no way could match a fraction of Rand’s power.

Of course, if Rand simply kept Caemlyn, there would be (continued) unrest. It would be a huge problem keeping the Andorans in line, especially since he really doesn’t have time to deal with it and he has far more pressing concerns than settling a nation for rule. But it certainly would be within his power to keep Caemlyn, whatever the Andorans desired. However, Rand does have other things to focus on, so he doesn’t want Caemlyn. He wants Elayne to have Caemlyn for precisely the reason Elayne wants Caemlyn. He needs a unified and pacific nation to come to call for Tarmon Gai’dan.

So it does benefit Rand for Elayne – an ally of his – to take control of Caemlyn. But “giving” her Caemlyn is exactly what he does. He lets her have it when it would be a simple matter to put someone else in power.

Remember what occurred to Colavere when she tried to take rule of Cairhien – indeed, was appointed to rule by consensus? That’s exactly what would have happened to Elayne had she made her bid for the Caemlyn throne without Rand’s assent. He would have come in there with his army and his Asha’men, and there would have been nothing Elayne could have done to resist him. Rand didn’t want Colavere to have Cairhien, so she did not have it, and was completely disenfranchised of power for defying his wishes. What the Cairhienins wanted mattered not a jot.

Rand wanted Elayne to have Caemlyn, and so she has it. Rand wants Elayne to have Cairhien, so she will have it too.

This doesn’t look good for her, as others have mentioned, because Rand isn’t looked upon in an even remotely decent light in Caemlyn, and Andorans would object to anyone perceived as his pawn. With that in mind, of course Elayne would want to distance herself from such a perception. But that is what happens: she is given Caemlyn.

The thing of it is, thus far she hasn’t considered it in that light – the light of calculated intelligence, as it were. Her only objection thus far, as has been recounted by her comments and mental narration, is that Caemlyn belongs to her. It’s even worse because Rand’s a male, and no man can have Caemlyn – the very thought is sacrilegious. Despite the fact that one man easily deposed the former queen, and it took another man to get rid of the last guy, she’s stuck on that bit of tradition. That’s what bugs her. And that’s what she complains about all the fucking time.

The folks here make good points justifying her outrage. It’s too bad Elayne doesn’t make those points in the book (at least not up to where I’ve read). It’s really bad that the points Elayne does make are unbelievably dumb. It makes sense for her character (when one considers her character is deliberately drawn as a haughty, annoying bitch-and-a-half), but that doesn’t make it appealing to read about.

[Humble Asskicker]

I haven't read more of WoT, to save myself the pain of an apoplectic fit, but I did enjoy criticizing the last chapter, so I'll give it another go. This is long, but there is a lot to hate.

Book 6

Chapter 40:

Remember what I said last time about a horrible chapter being great compared to the proximate chapters? Yeah, I’m not about to extol any high praises here.

We start out the chapter with Thom giving some counsel to Mat in the form of an anecdote. You see, he was crushing on this chick named Laritha, who was hitched to the classic abusive husband stereotype. As Thom describes it, “He shouted at her if dinner wasn’t ready when he wanted to sit down, and took a switch to her if he saw her say more than two words to another man.” A lot of us know women in situations like that, and it’s pretty tragic. But there’s more.

Laritha came to Thom crying over all the nasty shit her husband had done, “all the while moaning over how she wished someone would rescue her.” In the typical story this would be precisely the right thing to do. But RJ knows how to turn a cliché on its ass. Thom does try rescuing Laritha, which pisses her off to no end. Thom notes that she “was outraged that I thought she would ever leave her beloved husband….I expect she’s still living with him much as before. Holding the purse strings tight in her fist and cracking his head open with whatever lies to hand every time he stops into the inn for an ale.”

So what pearls of wisdom are we supposed to derive from this tale, the curious reader might inquire. Just this: “you shouldn’t think you know the whole story when you’ve heard part.” So apparently Laritha and her husband are just the quirky odd couple living in blissful dysfunction, and the wrong thing, we understand now that we have the whole story, is to try to separate them in their connubial joy.

Now I’m no psychologist, but I’ve been laboring under this crazy idea that when you have an abusive relationship that’s two-sided, somehow I don’t think that balances things out and makes it all right. I think the math is inverted there, and it’s all the more reason to get these people the fuck away from each other. What’re the words I’m looking for? Oh yes, co-dependent dysfunction. As in, a symbiotic downward spiral into fucking misery. It’s not love that keeps people like that together. It’s fear and self-loathing. As in, unhealthy and self-destructive.

But I’m not writing this story, so if RJ calls it love, I guess it’s love, and while it actively works against the point Thom is making as an example in the real world, let’s just accept that perhaps people are different in RJ’s world, and if a chick comes to you crying to be rescued from her abusive husband, that chick is actually a double-speaking crazy bitch from whom there’s a moral to be learned of the female populace as a whole.

But let’s be fair: Thom does have a point. It’s hard to act appropriately if you don’t know the whole story. And why don’t the characters know the whole story? Maybe it’s because they actively obscure their motives and goals from everyone, even when it could benefit them to try and work things out a little with each other?

It would be nice if something like this occurred for once.

Mat: Hey, Eggs. Hey Ninny. Hey ’layne. I just wanted to come by and tell you that I’m here to help, as always. Previous abuses when I helped you last time are water under the bridge. Rand and I figured you guys could use our assistance, so why don’t you come with me so Rand can give you his protection? You too, Elayne. Rand needs you to restore order in Caemlyn so he can work on that whole Last Battle thing. Kind of important for him to focus on, doncha agree?

Elayne: We can’t go. There’s something in Ebou Dar, which only Nynaeve and I can find, that may fix this weather that is plaguing the land.

Egwene: And I have to stay here and solidify my position in the rebellion. Since I’m a mature and wise leader, and you are my ally and childhood friend, and furthermore an explanation to you could not possibly harm my plans but only aid me, I will elaborate. Elaida will only hinder Rand. It is important that Aes Sedai who support a free and functioning Dragon Reborn be ready to fight off all the nasties in the Last Battle. I’m in the unique position of accomplishing that, but it must be perceived that I am doing it by my own merits, so tell Rand to lay off. In fact, I’ll send a missive with you, explaining precisely that.

Mat: That makes sense. But hey, Elayne, if both you and Nynaeve know the way to that thingamajig that can fix the weather, then shouldn’t just Nynaeve be able to accomplish the task? Two is sort of redundant, right? So while Nynaeve is out doing her thing, you can hurry up and work on putting down the unrest in Caemlyn.

Elayne: Good idea, Mat. Normally, being female, I would make a condescending remark about males being unable to think their way out of a hat and completely disregard what you have to say, but I find listening to you and discussing these things openly is more favorable to actually getting things the fuck done.

Mat: And I, being male, would normally respond with some comment about not understanding females, but you are actually behaving rationally right now, which I do understand. This is great.

Nynaeve: There’s a problem still. We don’t know exactly where the weather thingamajig is, so it will be harder to find with just one person.

Mat: That’s not a problem. I’m a ta’veren, and lucky to boot. I’ll take Elayne to Caemlyn, and once she’s settled down, she can form a gateway for me over at Ebou Dar. If I search with you, we’ll find it in no time.

Nynaeve: Good idea.

Egwene: I do have one last favor, Mat. It occurs to me that in order to increase my army size before I descend on Elaida, I can use your army to my advantage. Can you keep your soldiers here?

Mat: I’m a great battle leader, so I know what you are thinking. You can take a portion of them, and I’ll have Rand send some more over, to secretly fill your ranks. I’ll let them know that mum’s the word about being Dragonsworn. There are hundreds of thousands under Rand’s command, so we have plenty to spare.

Egwene: Thank you, Mat. That should make things much easier for me.

Nynaeve: Thank you, Mat. All of a sudden the benefit of cooperation with allies has become incredibly obvious.

Elayne: Thank you, Mat. It’s amazing how much you can do for us if we don’t act like total assholes and try to bully and deceive.

Mat: Hey, I’m just happy to help. As I keep saying, that’s all I want to do for you guys. That’s what Rand is trying to do too. We’re there for you. We set women on the pedestal of divinity for some inexplicable reason. Use that to your advantage.

Elayne, Nynny, Eggs: That’s very gallant. We’ll continue to ruthlessly exploit you for our agendas because you males are such willing dupes, but we’ll start to show occasional gratitude from now on, and we’ll actually start using you intelligently.

**Within weeks, the weather was corrected, the Forsaken all killed off, the White Tower made whole and allied with the Black Tower. Rand and Egwene were ready for anything that may come, and Caemlyn and Cairhein were stable and prepared for battle.**

Dare to dream, I suppose. Anyway, enough with that digression.

As it turns out, Thom’s remarkably idiotic story leads him to convince Mat to participate in that foreign concept I was talking about. Cooperation. Mat is reluctant, naturally. “In his head was an image of a a woman with a knife stuck between her breasts; not one of the borrowed memories.” He’s thinking of Melihendra, the Darkfriend who attempted to murder him.

What could a slain Darkfriend, his treacherous former lover, possibly have to do with helping Ninny and company? Oh, that’s right. Mat’s not upset that his fuckmate was killed; he’s upset that it was a woman, period, slain by his hand. And as we all know, a woman dying is the darkest event in the world. Perhaps Mat’s soul, which is irredeemably stained by the sin of murdering an innocent Darkfriend female in self-defense, will be tarnished further by not doing everything in his power to protect the Two Rivers’ women like fragile doves.

Still, regardless of his reservations, he concedes to Thom’s wisdom. It doesn’t have the same potent drama as with Rand the hardcore motherfucker, who feels the horrible agony of letting women die for him, but it’s certainly a sacrifice. Mat will cooperate, even if it means allowing the women to put themselves in danger to save the world.

Of course, in RJ’s world, this is a one-way street, and Elayne and Ninny aren’t about to make it easy for him to help them – he has to work for the privilege of aiding them – so things don’t go quite so smoothly as they might.

The POV shifts, and we’re now about to see the long-awaited confrontation between Avy and Elayne, which has been building up since book 4. Exciting stuff.

Before the encounter, Elayne runs into Birgitte, who has the audacity to show a little autonomy, which is so unlike what a good little Warder should do. This annoys Elayne to no end. It’s not a mistake she intends to repeat either: “Elayne had not had Birgitte for a Warder long before she decided that when she bonded Rand, she would somehow make him promise to do as he was told, at least when it was important. Lately she had decided on another provision. He was going to have to answer her questions.”

Now that’s love. A romance where one partner has complete control over the other partner (but only in important matters, and only with the asking and answering questions). It doesn’t even require the barbarism of threats and beatings. One can simply compel the other to their will. No wonder Rand is so attracted to Elayne. Who could resist someone who contemplates cheerfully about subordinating their prospective partner’s desires to their own will?

By the way, just in case you are wondering what could be annoying Elayne so much, it seems Birgitte remains obdurate about not letting Egwene know that she is the real Birgitte, which Egwene already knows, and which Birgitte knows she knows. Now that’s deep, and it’s personal dilemmas like this that has earned RJ renown for his multi-layered and complex characters.

Birgitte explains that whereas before she worked her deeds naturally and while unaware of her place in the Pattern, “Now, I’m Birgitte of the stories. Everyone who knows will expect [heroic deeds].”

When Elayne points out that Egwene already knows and does not expect, thus negating Birgitte’s stated reservations, Birgitte retorts: “As long as I don’t admit it…it is as if she didn’t [know].” Before you say that’s fucking retarded, Birgitte is right there ahead of you: “Don’t bother saying that’s nonsense too; I know it is, but that changes nothing.”

So you see. Since the character recognizes the absurdity of the situation but won’t change her behavior, it’s no longer an absurdity but a complex nuance on that character. Touche, RJ.

Elayne tries to inject some reasonable questions into their conversation, but before the objectionable odor of rationality pollutes the discussion, there’s an interruption and Elayne resumes her search for Avy.

Elayne snatches Avy from a gaggle of Aes Sedai, who “were more than a bit tight-lipped” about it, and then the two hustle off to a private room. Curiously, Avy places a knife and birching stick within Elayne’s reach, then shows her tits.

As Avy explains: “My near-sister Egwene asked me to watch Rand al’Thor for you, which I promised to do….I have toh toward her, but greater to you….I love Rand al’Thor, and once I let myself lie with him.” In other words, Elayne was all wet over Rand, and Egwene, no longer wet over Rand but now wet over Galad and Gawain, had no problem handing Rand over to Elayne to do with as she pleased, since Elayne was friends with Egwene. This was all unbeknownst to Rand, but he’s male, so he should be happy with whatever pussy he gets – and he in fact is. This whole situation works out perfectly, as you might expect. (It so happens this always works out perfectly when women make these decisions. You sometimes get complainers like Loial, but as we see even Loial eventually admits to himself that he’s pleased with the arrangement. So maybe the women know what they are doing after all.)

Anyway, Elayne makes out with Rand a few times but has to fuck off to Tarabon. She and Egwene agree that since Rand is now Elayne’s property, his chastity must be preserved until Elayne deigns to fuck him. Avy is inducted into this conspiracy, and it becomes a matter of honor for her to see that Rand only fucks Elayne. But Avy ends up fucking him, so she owes Elayne big time, because she recognizes that Elayne has proprietary rights over Rand.

This upsets Elayne. She struggles to restrain herself. But then she manages to say: “I love Rand but I don’t care if you love him too.”

This shocks Avy. What could possibly account for a woman who has displayed the degree of possessiveness that Elayne has to share Rand? As Elayne explains, they are predestined to share Rand. Nothing that anyone can do about it. We’re told over and over again that people have free will and that prophecies are more guides of what could happen, but then, while that’s true, it’s also true that everything Min sees invariably does happen. Which if you think about it, makes…I won’t say sense. I’ll say don’t think about it.

Since Elayne figures that you can’t fight the future although you can fight the future (again, don’t think about it), she’s willing to share Rand without a struggle.

But Pattern or no, Elayne has concerns. After all “Min kept saying they would share [Rand], but certainly not that way! Even the thought was indecent!” “That way” being fucking. Elayne’s surprise is perfectly understandable, because it’s natural for someone to assume that by “sharing” a romantic interest, it would be for like tea parties and shit.

Still, she explains to Avy about Min and the visions.

Avy is not too keen on another chick getting boned by Rand, because while she concedes that Elayne has first dibs on him, Avy, who actually manhandled Rand into fucking her, at the very least has some control over where Rand gets to put his cock. It doesn’t matter that she expressed very clearly to Rand that he never gets to fuck her again – these details are no business of his. Females are capricious – males just have to suck it up and deal.

But Avy says she’ll think on it. The chapter concludes with a gender war comment, fittingly enough, as it represents the theme of this compelling chapter.

[The Evil Hat]

**Within weeks, the weather was corrected, the Forsaken all killed off, the White Tower made whole and allied with the Black Tower. Rand and Egwene were ready for anything that may come, and Caemlyn and Cairhein were stable and prepared for battle.**

:lmao:

Great stuff, and I've always thought that maybe all three of Rand's harem members could've done a much better job of avoiding this future if they just said "no." Providing they do have free will, prophecy only matters so much as they all bow down to it, doesn't it?

[Darth Vader's Bastard]

Anyone been reading the comics that Dynamite is putting out? I think they are on issue #3...

[Old Nan]

The folks here make good points justifying her outrage. It's too bad Elayne doesn't make those points in the book (at least not up to where I've read). It's really bad that the points Elayne does make are unbelievably dumb. It makes sense for her character (when one considers her character is deliberately drawn as a haughty, annoying bitch-and-a-half), but that doesn't make it appealing to read about.

She and others make them explicitly. And no, her character is neither universally haughty nor universally "a bitch." What annoys you, is, of course, your affair, but I've always considered her one of the more entertaining POVs.

[Renasko]

I've been re-reading the series myself of late. Little ahead of HA, and I'm finding the relationships, Rand's in particular, to be a tad fucking annoying, yeah. Why the invention of gateways never heralded sex all over the continent, I just don't know. :D

Edit: Err, reinvention of travelling. I'm sure in the previous Age, they had no such hold-backs. Take Graendal, Lanfear and Birgitte, for example.

[fionwe1987]

To return to a previous discussion:

However the Andorans feel is irrelevant.

It is relevant, to Elayne. So the fact that she takes it into consideration is not surprising at all.

The long and short of it is, they are occupied by a force that far, far outmatches them. By the time Rand takes control of Andor, he is **the** power of the land. And he only grows even more powerful with the Asha'man, Aes Sedai servants, and then the sacking of Illian. Not factoring the Seanchan, Rand is the most powerful conqueror since Hawkwing. By the end of book seven, he's more powerful than Hawkwing ever managed. Easily.

Ummm... no. Rand is in no way more powerful than Hawkwing. He might easily have more firepower, but he doesn't control as much territory, and unlike Hawkwing, he isn't popular in the territory he has captured. Hawkwing was seen as a savior, and but for power hungry Nobles, had enormous popular support. Rand doesn't have any such thing. And what the Aiel were to Hawkwing, the Seanchan are to Rand.

If Rand didn't have concerns outside of conquering, if he hadn't gotten himself some nookie from Elayne which therefore convinced him that she would be the fittest ruler of Caemlyn – if he wanted anyone else to be his puppet ruler there, then that's what would have happened, and there would be no force in the world that could have stopped it. Whatever allies Elayne could muster in no way could match a fraction of Rand's power.

Of course, if Rand simply kept Caemlyn, there would be (continued) unrest. It would be a huge problem keeping the Andorans in line, especially since he really doesn't have time to deal with it and he has far more pressing concerns than settling a nation for rule. But it certainly would be within his power to keep Caemlyn, whatever the Andorans desired. However, Rand does have other things to focus on, so he doesn't want Caemlyn. He wants Elayne to have Caemlyn for precisely the reason Elayne wants Caemlyn. He needs a unified and pacific nation to come to call for Tarmon Gai'dan.

So, essentially, Rand needs Elayne for his plans just as much as she needs him. He can waste resources pacifying a rebellious nation (that is neither disenchanted with its nobility, ala Tear, nor defeated and impoverished ala Cairhein) that also has the support of both sides of the Tower Rebellion, or he can leave it to the competent heir to the throne who can easily drum up support on her own, who happens to be Aes Sedai and his girlfriend. Rand couldn't get a better deal.

So it does benefit Rand for Elayne – an ally of his – to take control of Caemlyn. But "giving" her Caemlyn is exactly what he does. He lets her have it when it would be a simple matter to put someone else in power.

But that's it! It wouldn't be a simple matter. Who else would he put in? Dyelin? She refused the throne from her own country men. Why would she accept it from Rand? Ellorien wouldn't take it as long as Dyelin was alive and a viable candidate. Arymilla, Nean and those other idiots are worse than having a Foresaken on the throne, and he himself would have neither the time nor the support for it.

Giving it to Elayne was not a choice Rand made. It was his only viable option.

Remember what occurred to Colavere when she tried to take rule of Cairhien – indeed, was appointed to rule by consensus? That's exactly what would have happened to Elayne had she made her bid for the Caemlyn throne without Rand's assent. He would have come in there with his army and his Asha'men, and there would have been nothing Elayne could have done to resist him. Rand didn't want Colavere to have Cairhien, so she did not have it, and was completely disenfranchised of power for defying his wishes. What the Cairhienins wanted mattered not a jot.

Rand wanted Elayne to have Caemlyn, and so she has it. Rand wants Elayne to have Cairhien, so she will have it too.

Cairhein and Andor are not comparable at all. Colavere killed her rivals before having the throne. She wasn't the popular choice by any means. Plus, she conspired with the AS and reversed Rand's laws (or intended to). Elayne is the daughter of the Queen. A very different proposition.

This doesn't look good for her, as others have mentioned, because Rand isn't looked upon in an even remotely decent light in Caemlyn, and Andorans would object to anyone perceived as his pawn. With that in mind, of course Elayne would want to distance herself from such a perception. But that is what happens: she is given Caemlyn.

But even if it were true that the political reality is that Rand could give Andor to her, she is more pissed that he made a public statement about it, not that he could do it.

The thing of it is, thus far she hasn't considered it in that light – the light of calculated intelligence, as it were. Her only objection thus far, as has been recounted by her comments and mental narration, is that Caemlyn belongs to her. It's even worse because Rand's a male, and no man can have Caemlyn – the very thought is sacrilegious. Despite the fact that one man easily deposed the former queen, and it took another man to get rid of the last guy, she's stuck on that bit of tradition. That's what bugs her. And that's what she complains about all the fucking time.

Ummm... no. The fact that Rand is a man doesn't enter into it. Its that he handed her a difficult political situation by making his statement.

The folks here make good points justifying her outrage. It's too bad Elayne doesn't make those points in the book (at least not up to where I've read). It's really bad that the points Elayne does make are unbelievably dumb. It makes sense for her character (when one considers her character is deliberately drawn as a haughty, annoying bitch-and-a-half), but that doesn't make it appealing to read about.

So it is haughty and bitchy to be pissed at an invader? That's new.

[Humble Asskicker]

What annoys you, is, of course, your affair, but I've always considered her one of the more entertaining POVs.

Of course, matters of being annoyed or entertained are subjective, so difference are to be expected. However, it's mentioned by several characters (Mat, Nynaeve, Thom, Egwene, et al) that Elayne is indeed haughty and condescending, and while they don't quite call her a bitch, it's not far short of that. Her character is supposed to be that way. I'm sure RJ wanted readers to be entertained by it, or in spite of it, and it seems he's succeeded at least for you.

I suppose the laws of probability dictate that he couldn't have annoyed every single reader with his portrayal of Elayne. But you are an anomaly. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

It is relevant, to Elayne. So the fact that she takes it into consideration is not surprising at all.

I didn't dispute that, and hoped that it was clear by the context of the entire post that I meant irrelevant in the sense that what Andorans want isn't what determines what Andorans get.

Ummm... no. Rand is in no way more powerful than Hawkwing. He might easily have more firepower, but he doesn't control as much territory, and unlike Hawkwing, he isn't popular in the territory he has captured. Hawkwing was seen as a savior, and but for power hungry Nobles, had enormous popular support. Rand doesn't have any such thing. And what the Aiel were to Hawkwing, the Seanchan are to Rand.

Which is why I noted the Seanchan - who don't really pose a problem for Rand in a significant way until book seven.

And in terms of that firepower that you mentioned, which includes hundreds of channelers that can mow down any army the other nations can raise - hell, tenfold that number - on top of the hundreds of thousands of loyal Aiel, the dubiously loyal troops from Cairhien, and the more certain support from Tear and Illian. Hundreds of thousands, where most nations at full strenght - which Caemlyn certainly is not - hard-pressed to raise a coupld dozen thousand. The lopsidedness is staggering. The stability of Rand's power is measured on a scale of time - as in, he doesn't have any to stabilize like Hawkwing - rather than raw ability.

In other words, Rand may not have the amount of stable territory under his control, but given time, it definitely would have been in his power to do so. Until the Seanchan enter the picture, of course. But we were talking about the silly semantics of "giving" the throne of Andor to Elayne, which precedes the Seanchan, really.

So, essentially, Rand needs Elayne for his plans just as much as she needs him. He can waste resources pacifying a rebellious nation (that is neither disenchanted with its nobility, ala Tear, nor defeated and impoverished ala Cairhein) that also has the support of both sides of the Tower Rebellion, or he can leave it to the competent heir to the throne who can easily drum up support on her own, who happens to be Aes Sedai and his girlfriend. Rand couldn't get a better deal.

Yes, I did say as much. It is in his interest to give Elayne the throne. Why not? She's his ally, and it makes the Andorans happy. But the argument is that he's giving it to her. Even though it would hurt him, it would be in his power to let someone else have it. Elayne needs him more than he needs her.

Although this does enter nebulous territory, as we know that Andor is key to winning the Last Battle, so perhaps Elayne is the key for that to be true. In which case Rand really does need Elayne as much as she needs him.

But that's it! It wouldn't be a simple matter. Who else would he put in? Dyelin? She refused the throne from her own country men. Why would she accept it from Rand? Ellorien wouldn't take it as long as Dyelin was alive and a viable candidate. Arymilla, Nean and those other idiots are worse than having a Foresaken on the throne, and he himself would have neither the time nor the support for it.

Like I said, Elayne is the best candidate and that's why Rand chooses her. But this is what I call "giving" the throne. Even if Arymilla et al would be incompetent, Rand could give them the throne while preventing Elayne from having it. It is within his power. Instead, he wisely gives Elayne the throne.

This is not a dispute on whether Rand is making the right decision. It's a simple argument over terminology. Rand gave Elayne the throne.

Cairhein and Andor are not comparable at all. Colavere killed her rivals before having the throne. She wasn't the popular choice by any means. Plus, she conspired with the AS and reversed Rand's laws (or intended to). Elayne is the daughter of the Queen. A very different proposition.

In the context of whether Elayne is more moral than Colavere, certainly. But on the point of whether Rand had the power to remove a ruler from control of the nation, no. There would be more outrage if Rand walked in and deposed Elayne (not much at first, I think, because initially while Elayne did have support of Dyelin, she had to work for most of the other support - she wasn't the popular choice by far).

But even if it were true that the political reality is that Rand could give Andor to her, she is more pissed that he made a public statement about it, not that he could do it.

A sentiment I agreed with in my previous post.

Ummm... no. The fact that Rand is a man doesn't enter into it. Its that he handed her a difficult political situation by making his statement.

I unfortunately don't have the book with me now, because I'm reading other stuff, but next time I do I'll throw some quotes at you. I've been paying attention to the shit that annoys me on this read-through, and Elayne and her quirks certainly do that.

So it is haughty and bitchy to be pissed at an invader? That's new.

I said this near the beginning of this post, but many characters mention that she is haughty (they don't say bitchy, but it's not exactly a difficult line to draw), which is why I used the word "deliberately." RJ intended her to come off that way. I connected that attitude with her specific objections, which are dumb, not because I think it's horrible that someone invaded her nation.

I in fact said:

The folks here make good points justifying her outrage. It's too bad Elayne doesn't make those points in the book (at least not up to where I've read).

[Old Nan]

The problem is that none of this is interpretation; it is what Elayne herself has said and thought.

I don't really understand the impulse to tear apart what you dislike in order to rationalize that dislike. I mean, there's plenty I dislike about Jordan, but it's simply impolite to rake it over the coals like this. If you want to kill a bug, step on it and wipe it off the floor; don't pull its wings and legs off and see how long it takes to die drowning in Windex. (I'd say the same about MST3K and the Goodkind thread, but those ships have long since already sailed.)

[Darkness]

Actually Rand has the most powerful army in the current Age. If you remove the Aiel and it's just him with 10 loyal Asha'man about 70% his power level, he could wipe out any non-magic using army just by using the deathgates. When Rand rediscovered how to use them, he had only a few people and if I remember correctly they killed a 100,000 trollics. What non-magic Army can withstand Rand? If it was the Seachan then yes he would need the Black Tower behind him, but then the deathgates will come in handy as the female channellers won't be able to see them or make them, plus the Seachan do not have travelling anyway. The reason he wanted Elayne to have the throne was because, she was the rightful heir to it and because he knows when the Last Battle comes he can count on her to come to his aid, instead of trying to find ways around it etc, which is what the nobles in Tear were doing.

[Old Nan]

The Deathgates are just gateways that move; they kill Trollocs because for whatever reason shadowspawn can't Travel. If you pointed one at a human being it should just be teleported to wherever the gateway ends. The other weapons he remembered to make are another story, presumably.

[russjass]

The Deathgates are just gateways that move; they kill Trollocs because for whatever reason shadowspawn can't Travel. If you pointed one at a human being it should just be teleported to wherever the gateway ends. The other weapons he remembered to make are another story, presumably.

Where do you get that shadowspawn cant travel? I dont think that has been said anywhere.

And I am pretty sure that the deathgates would work on a human. They are like the skimming gates, but with no platform, so they fall forever.

[Old Nan]

From KOD Ch. 19, where they're introduced (and I think the only time they've been used so far)

"A close-run thing," Logain muttered. "If this had happened before I arrived.… A close-run thing." He gave himself a shake and released the Source, turning away from his glassless window. "Did you intend keeping these new weaves for your favorites, like Taim? Those gateways. Where did we send those Trollocs? I just copied your weave exactly."

"It doesn't matter where they went," Rand said absently. His attention was focused on Lews Therin. The madman, the bloody voice in his head, drew a little deeper on the Power. Let go, man. "Shadowspawn can't survive passing through a gateway."

I want to die, Lews Therin said. I want to join llyena.

If you really wanted to die, why did you kill Trollocs? Rand thought. Why kill that Myrddraal? “People will find groups of dead Trollocs and maybe Myrddraal without a mark on them,” he said aloud.

I seem to remember dying, Lews Therin murmured. I remember how I did it. He drew deeper still, and small pains grew in Rand’s temples.

“Not too many in any one place, though. The destination shifts every time a Deathgate opens.”

[russjass]

I stand corrected. Thanks

That is a very interesting tactical advantage for the forces of the Light, if the Forsaken are limited to the Ways to move troops quickly, while the Light can open gateways to anywhere from anywhere and move large numbers of troops.

Makes you think that the light will probably win, doesnt it?

[Darkness]

From KOD Ch. 19, where they're introduced (and I think the only time they've been used so far)

Thanks, I just thought (remembered) that the gates opened and closed so fast that only part of a trolloc travelled. My point still stands with them though, only different would be to make the other side in the middle of the ocean where they would drown or 100 meters in the air where the person falls to their death, but I don't know if a gateway can be done 100 meters in the air.

[Lightning Lord]

The problem is that none of this is interpretation; it is what Elayne herself has said and thought.

I don't really understand the impulse to tear apart what you dislike in order to rationalize that dislike. I mean, there's plenty I dislike about Jordan, but it's simply impolite to rake it over the coals like this. If you want to kill a bug, step on it and wipe it off the floor; don't pull its wings and legs off and see how long it takes to die drowning in Windex. (I'd say the same about MST3K and the Goodkind thread, but those ships have long since already sailed.)

In this instance, and the other two you mentioned, I believe the motivation is to amuse. And all three incarnations succeeded.

Well done, HA!

[Slurktan]

Ummm... no. Rand is in no way more powerful than Hawkwing. He might easily have more firepower, but he doesn't control as much territory, and unlike Hawkwing, he isn't popular in the territory he has captured. Hawkwing was seen as a savior, and but for power hungry Nobles, had enormous popular support. Rand doesn't have any such thing. And what the Aiel were to Hawkwing, the Seanchan are to Rand.

Rand in at least a couple ways is more powerful than Hawkwing. Channeling as mentioned. From a military standpoint Rand controls a force better than any of Hawkwing's armies that is just as large: the Aiel. He also has the greatest General in the history of Randland on his side.

I'm interested in your idea that Rand is not popular with the commonfolk as well. Where did you get this from? I'd assume you are referring to Andor in specific but even that claim is..... dodgy at best. The nobles/Aes Sedai don't like him, but everyone else sees him as a sort of God.

[SpaceChampion]

Thanks, I just thought (remembered) that the gates opened and closed so fast that only part of a trolloc travelled.

That is what happens, hence the massive amounts of stinking Trollocs body parts lying around. Don't the gates also spin? With the spinning and opening/closing deathgates, most of the Trollocs were sliced and diced, but I imagine a small percentage made it through the gates mostly whole by fluke, but still dead.

On humans deathgates can be used the same way, but I imagine you have to make the gate small enough to ensure slicing/dicing your target, rather than transporting them whole and alive to invade some village somewhere else, or worse behind your own army's frontlines. The problem with making the deathgate that small though is you might not be able to kill them all before they swarm you. Once they close on you I imagine you would want to switch to using more traditional combats weaves that do widespread damage, like fireballs and lightning.

With the Trollocs though the deathgates could be made as big as the channeler could manage.

[Xanrn]

Does it matter if the humans survive going through the deathgates which they wouldn't, teleporting troops away from the battlefield is nearly as good as killing them.

Unless they happen to have a travel capable channeler with them, they won't be able to get back anytime soon.