The Wheel of Time...

[Old Nan]

And that's more or less how it is. Except the masses have swords and owe fealty to strange women (not in ponds, but possibly in bathtubs).

[The WaterDancer Knight]

You can say "It's his by force" but the Andorians DON'T ACCEPT THAT.

The same way an American doesn't accept that the departing Presidency is the Presidents to give. It's up to the people to give it to the next President.

Rand is viewed as a Usurper. The throne is not his to give away and the Andorians won't accept anyone he appoints. They demand the right to have their "own" King/Queen and not one appointed by some foreign power.

By saying he's going to "give the throne to Elayne", Rand puts Elayne in a bad situation where it's hard for her to take the throne without it looking like she's his puppet (and thus leaving her not accepted by the rest of Andor).

Also, it's stated OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN that almost nobody believes that the Forsaken are who Rand says they are. Shit, even the Aes Sedai don't believe him.

You forget that Rand is an Andoran ! His name Al'Tor marks him as from the Two River which is part of Andor. And I don't remember if Andoran nobility knows who was his mother but Cairhienian's nobility knows. From his birth he HAS claim to take the throne for Andor for himself. The only thing Andoran nobility could oppose is the tradition for Andor to be ruled by queens. Nothing that his military might could not change.

The fact that Rand could have a better claim for Andor than Elayne and the fact that she is well aware of that is the main reason for her to be so angry at him.

[Old Nan]

And I don't remember if Andoran nobility knows who was his mother

They don't.

From his birth he HAS claim to take the throne for Andor for himself. The only thing Andoran nobility could oppose is the tradition for Andor to be ruled by queens.

A thousand-year long precedent and almost certainly a basic law? Sure, he could take the throne of Andor, but it would no longer be Andor at that point.

The fact that Rand could have a better claim for Andor than Elayne and the fact that she is well aware of that

She is not aware of that, and he doesn't. The highest-ranking female member of House Mantear has that claim, and it is not better than Elayne's.

[fionwe1987]

You forget that Rand is an Andoran ! His name Al'Tor marks him as from the Two River which is part of Andor. And I don't remember if Andoran nobility knows who was his mother but Cairhienian's nobility knows.

No one knows that Rand's mom was Tigraine except Rand himself. The Andoran's suspected he was Morghase's son because of his coloring, but that was stupid speculation. The Andorans certainly have no clue, except to remark that he looks a little like Tigraine.

From his birth he HAS claim to take the throne for Andor for himself. The only thing Andoran nobility could oppose is the tradition for Andor to be ruled by queens. Nothing that his military might could not change.

It may have escaped your notice, but only women can take the Lion Throne. It is even sized for a woman. There's no way Rand has a claim to the Lion Throne.

The fact that Rand could have a better claim for Andor than Elayne and the fact that she is well aware of that is the main reason for her to be so angry at him.

Elayne is quite unaware of his connection to House Mantear. And given that she has the most number of ties to Ishara, she is definitely the person with the best claim to the throne. She's angry at Rand for other reasons which have been gone into in depth in this post.

EDIT: Looks like someone else already said it all. Sorry!

[Lightning Lord]

It's not a civil war, it's a Succession. It's like the Andorian version of an election. Except with kidnapping and alot of armed men shaking their fists at each other.

You wouldn't call an army besieging the capital city a civil war? Just because there hasn't been a pitched battle doesn't mean it isn't a war. Since I don't care too much about the books that happens in, maybe it's written that the Andorans don't call it a civil war, but a Succession. But really, there's no other name for a large group of armed men, led by someone that wants to be ruler, besieging a city. Arymilla claimed the throne, got supporting nobles and troops and now it's a war.

[Old Nan]

At the point in time when Elayne is angry for Rand's saying he'll "give her" the throne, i.e. before she arrives in Path of Daggers and independently asserts her claim, she is under the (somewhat naive, and definitely badly informed as she's half a continent away; she doesn't know half of what Rahvin did) impression that all it will take is to show up, claim the throne, and take her mother's crown. We're shown that Dyelin has indeed been controlling the situation, arresting a couple of nobles who have announced their own claims and generally giving Elayne the best shot she can, but because of Morgase having completely alienated Trakand's allies, Elayne is lacking the political support to simply become queen the way an heir normally would. Shortly after Elayne arrives in Caemlyn Arymilla kidnaps the imprisoned nobles, announces her own bid, and starts gathering her army.

[fionwe1987]

You wouldn't call an army besieging the capital city a civil war? Just because there hasn't been a pitched battle doesn't mean it isn't a war. Since I don't care too much about the books that happens in, maybe it's written that the Andorans don't call it a civil war, but a Succession. But really, there's no other name for a large group of armed men, led by someone that wants to be ruler, besieging a city. Arymilla claimed the throne, got supporting nobles and troops and now it's a war.

As far as I know, a Civil War is against a sitting ruler, not a war over who will be the new ruler. What we had in the Tower with the Rebellion was a Civil War. But when one ruler dies and there's a war over who should rule, I think a Succession is a much better description.

[Old Nan]

Okay, another metaphor.

Say Goldman Sachs executes a coup de etat and seizes the Presidency of the United States from Barack Obama, while Joe Biden is purportedly in England studying the notes of Neal Kinnock. The Premier of China, keen to the suffering of the American proletariat under the hands of capitalist pigdogs, invades the country, kills off Goldman's Board of Directors, and seizes absolute power in Washington. The Premier says that Biden is alive, despite his having been vanished for months, leading to tensions between Obama and by-the-Grace-of-God Harry of the United Kingdom, the Nazi King. The Premier declares that Biden, despite being in places unknown and therefore unable to execute the affairs of the presidency, shall be the next President and the normal line of succession is not to be followed. For weeks and then months the Premier repeats this line, insisting that Biden will arrive Any Day Now, and in the interim assumes absolute power personally, enforced by the ongoing presence of the People's Liberation Army in and arround the largest cities in the country. But, of course, when Biden shows up the PLA will immediately depart.

Do you trust him? Would you trust Biden after he's finally produced and then takes the oath of office from the Premier rather than the American Chief Justice?

[Shryke]

You wouldn't call an army besieging the capital city a civil war? Just because there hasn't been a pitched battle doesn't mean it isn't a war. Since I don't care too much about the books that happens in, maybe it's written that the Andorans don't call it a civil war, but a Succession. But really, there's no other name for a large group of armed men, led by someone that wants to be ruler, besieging a city. Arymilla claimed the throne, got supporting nobles and troops and now it's a war.

Well, this Succession (due to pressing from some unsavory probably Drakfriend types) got bloodier then usual.

But they say several times in the book, a normal succession is more of nobles grabbing their armsmen and doing alot of posturing, but with essentially no pitched battles. It's all resolved with pressure and kidnapping and intimidation.

Also, since no one knows about Rand's parentage, he has no claim to the throne. It's not just about support, you also need to be fairly closely descended from the original queen of Andor.

[fionwe1987]

Okay, another metaphor.

Say Goldman Sachs executes a coup de etat and seizes the Presidency of the United States from Barack Obama, while Joe Biden is purportedly in England studying the notes of Neal Kinnock. The Premier of China, keen to the suffering of the American proletariat under the hands of capitalist pigdogs, invades the country, kills off Goldman's Board of Directors, and seizes absolute power in Washington. The Premier says that Biden is alive, despite his having been vanished for months, leading to tensions between Obama and by-the-Grace-of-God Harry of the United Kingdom, the Nazi King. The Premier declares that Biden, despite being in places unknown and therefore unable to execute the affairs of the presidency, shall be the next President and the normal line of succession is not to be followed. For weeks and then months the Premier repeats this line, insisting that Biden will arrive Any Day Now, and in the interim assumes absolute power personally, enforced by the ongoing presence of the People's Liberation Army in and arround the largest cities in the country. But, of course, when Biden shows up the PLA will immediately depart.

Do you trust him? Would you trust Biden after he's finally produced and then takes the oath of office from the Premier rather than the American Chief Justice?

Really cool analogy! :lol:

[SpaceChampion]

Well, this Succession (due to pressing from some unsavory probably Drakfriend types) got bloodier then usual.

Drakfriend? I can picture Londo saying: "I suppose you think I'm to blame for your little war, hmmm? What do you want me to do about it? Open a vein?"

[Lightning Lord]

Well, this Succession (due to pressing from some unsavory probably Drakfriend types) got bloodier then usual.

But they say several times in the book, a normal succession is more of nobles grabbing their armsmen and doing alot of posturing, but with essentially no pitched battles. It's all resolved with pressure and kidnapping and intimidation.

Also, since no one knows about Rand's parentage, he has no claim to the throne. It's not just about support, you also need to be fairly closely descended from the original queen of Andor.

Certainly, usually the Succession is more orderly and less militant than this time. But this time, when Rand leaves, it does become a civil war.

Rand has no known claim to the throne, correct. He knows, but others just comment from time to time "Wow, you look a lot like Tigraine!"

[Joanna vander Poele]

Do more chapter reviews, Humble Asskicker. I may have laughed a little too hard at this one.

[Migey]

I dont get what all the hpye about WoT is about to be honest. At his best Jordan is (well.. was) an enjoyable author to read, albeit a tad boring at times, although hes very rarely at his best, hes pretty much always readable... but i dont get why authors like Jordan and Meyer get all the hype when some really good ones like Martin and Kearney are not that well known by the general populace. (yeah, im a devoted Kearney fan now.)

[fionwe1987]

I dont get what all the hpye about WoT is about to be honest. At his best Jordan is (well.. was) an enjoyable author to read, albeit a tad boring at times, although hes very rarely at his best, hes pretty much always readable... but i dont get why authors like Jordan and Meyer get all the hype when some really good ones like Martin and Kearney are not that well known by the general populace. (yeah, im a devoted Kearney fan now.)

I can't say anything about Meyers, but it is fairly obvious for Jordan. He writes enjoyable stories, his world is richly imagined and his story is interesting (though badly paced). No reason in the world for him to not be popular.

[Shryke]

I dont get what all the hpye about WoT is about to be honest. At his best Jordan is (well.. was) an enjoyable author to read, albeit a tad boring at times, although hes very rarely at his best, hes pretty much always readable... but i dont get why authors like Jordan and Meyer get all the hype when some really good ones like Martin and Kearney are not that well known by the general populace. (yeah, im a devoted Kearney fan now.)

Jordan precedes them for one.

Wheel of Time is the original giant epic fantasy series.

[Galactus]

Rand has no known claim to the throne, correct. He knows, but others just comment from time to time "Wow, you look a lot like Tigraine!"

No, he has no claim.

His daughters might have a claim, but he has none. Because he is a man.

Andor has a matrilineal succession.

[Renasko]

I dont get what all the hpye about WoT is about to be honest. At his best Jordan is (well.. was) an enjoyable author to read, albeit a tad boring at times, although hes very rarely at his best, hes pretty much always readable... but i dont get why authors like Jordan and Meyer get all the hype when some really good ones like Martin and Kearney are not that well known by the general populace. (yeah, im a devoted Kearney fan now.)

Oh, sheep swallop! Sheep swallop and bloody buttered onions!

[fionwe1987]

No, he has no claim.

His daughters might have a claim, but he has none. Because he is a man.

Andor has a matrilineal succession.

Even his daughters (with Aviendha or Min, of course) won't likely be considered because the current High Seat of House Mantear is Perival. <i>His</i> daughters will likely have a stronger claim.

Elayne's girl baby, of course, will have the best claim of all. Way ahead of anyone else, in fact, if Rand's lineage gets revealed.

[Werthead]

Wheel of Time is the original giant epic fantasy series.

Apart from Thomas Covenant, Shannara, Riftwar, The Belgariad and, most notably, Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, which all preceded it.

It was the original giant epic fantasy series that became an enormous giga-seller in the early 1990s and opened the door to series that were bigger than three books with continuous narratives (Brooks, Feist and Eddings being divided into small arcs and Williams being a single trilogy, albeit one of colossal size) though.