Internal vs external criticism of Israel

[shadowbinding shoe]

It's not just the culture being predominantly that of the majority group though, it's that the state of Israel officially defines itself as a 'Jewish State' or the State of the Jewish people despite 25% pf the population not being Jewish. It's not unreasonable for minority groups in any country to expect that the official definition of what the state is and what it represents does not explicitly exclude them.

ETA: As I said before the UK is the British state and every citizen of the UK is British, so no Muslims in the UK are not excluded by any official definition of what the British State is.

Go ahead and make the effort to read the rest of my post

[ljkeane]

Go ahead and make the effort to read the rest of my post

I did and my post addresses it.

[shadowbinding shoe]

I did and my post addresses it.

Or did it?

[ljkeane]

Or did it?

Yes.

If you actually have a point feel free to share it.

[mormont]

If either of you have a point to make about in what way a point has or has not been addressed, please do make it. The 'yes it did/no it didn't' back-and-forth adds nothing to the thread but unnecessary friction, and on this topic we could do without that.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Yes.

If you actually have a point feel free to share it.

The point, which was already made in my post above, is that 'Israel, a state for Jews only' or some variation of such is not what Israel as defined by its laws and declaration of independence is.

Your blank statements to the contrary are therefore meaningless and false.

[ljkeane]

The point, which was already made in my post above, is that 'Israel, a state for Jews only' or some variation of such is not what Israel as defined by its laws and declaration of independence is.

Your blank statements to the contrary are therefore meaningless and false.

Right, so other than the Declaration of the establishment of the state of Israel explicitly defining it as a Jewish State, the Israeli government constantly using the terminology of the 'Jewish State' or 'State of the Jewish people' and at least one of the Basic Laws of the Knesset using the same terminology there's no reason to say that Israel is officially defined as a Jewish State. Obvious really.

[Samalander]

(just as referring to say Jordan as a Muslim state alone is inaccurate as it omits a small but significant Christian population and smaller numbers of other people).

I would have no problem if Jordan referred to itself as a Palestinian state. ;)

Again, this is not a matter of mere criticism. Many countries call themselves Muslim, have small but significant minorities and get just rebukes for it. But none of them have their right to exist questioned!

[Alexia]

I would have no problem if Jordan referred to itself as a Palestinian state. ;)

Serious question: isn't that entire region Palestine? So all the countries, including Israel, could call themselves Palestinian and it wouldn't be exclusionary towards any citizens of those countries?

I know Palestinian is popularly used for the residents of Gaza and the West Bank but I always thought it was reflective of the region, not race, ethnicity, or religion.

[Happy Ent]

Serious question: isn't that entire region Palestine? So all the countries, including Israel, could call themselves Palestinian and it wouldn't be exclusionary towards any citizens of those countries?

The region between the river Jordan and the Mediterranean is called Palestine (from the Greek). The Hebrew name for it is Israel. After Ottoman occupation, during the British Mandate, it was all called Palestine. In 1948 it was decided, due to strife between various population groups, to split the area into two entities (states, nations, homelands — call it what you will). The UN accepted an idea of a (unnamed) “Jewish state” and an (unnamed) “Arab state.” These are useful, descriptive names, yet neither name is exclusionary towards any citizens per se. The “Jewish state” decided to call itself Israel (actually, Zion, but they changed their mind after a few hours). It was attacked by its neighbours the same day. The “Arab state,” as far as I know, never lived long enough to get its own name (*), being immediately occupied/annexed/whatever by its neighbours.

I know Palestinian is popularly used for the residents of Gaza and the West Bank but I always thought it was reflective of the region, not race, ethnicity, or religion.

As I said upthread, that’s a PR mistake from Israel. They should have called themselves Palestine, to brand that name. You can call the Gaza and the West Bank whatever you want. Egypt and Jordan, for example. Or Palestine. Or the “Arab state of Palestine” to keep the symmetry with “The Jewish state of Israel.”

(*) I don’t know anything about that and would be happy to learn more.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I would have no problem if Jordan referred to itself as a Palestinian state. ;)

Again, this is not a matter of mere criticism. Many countries call themselves Muslim, have small but significant minorities and get just rebukes for it. But none of them have their right to exist questioned!

There's the "Islamic Republic of Pakistan", the "Islamic Republic of Afghanistan", the "Islamic Republic of Iran", and the "Islamic Republic of Mauritania."

[Galactus]

I intentionally did not say that Israel should be compared with its neighbours. As you say, none of the democratic countries is in the same situation. They are not fighting a war since its foundation. However, what bugs me is that those people who expect Israel to be the good one in every situation, give slack to Hammas who openly declare that their objective is to destroy Israel. North Korea an Iran are shunned and subject to UN sanctions, why not Hammas?

Again, because Hamas *is not a state*.

[Datepalm]

Golda Meir famously complained "What Palestinians? I'm Palestinian."

Ottoman vilayets were named for their capital cities. The Mandate, IIRC, was officially called "Palestine-Eretz Israel". (Jordan was part of it until 1922 when it was carved off) Syria and Lebanon were never Palestine.

[Yoadm]

Agreed. White English people make up the overwhelming majority of the population of the United Kingdom. Trying to define the country by that alone will, however, very quickly draw an enraged response from ethnic minorities, Manx, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish people.

Israel referring to itself or being referred to as a predominantly Jewish State would be accurate, but the term 'Jewish State' by itself omits a significant percentage of the population (just as referring to say Jordan as a Muslim state alone is inaccurate as it omits a small but significant Christian population and smaller numbers of other people).

Well, as long as that minority receives full political, religious and social rights, I don't see a problem with it. There are dozens of christian states, many of them have crosses in their flag. So does the British flag. In that case, should those flags now have Muslim symbols attached to them to appease the minorities, so they would feel represented too?

All this idealism is nice and dandy, but the fact is there are 22 arab states, 51 muslim states, dozens of Christian states (many of which define themselves that way, for instance the head of the British state has to be of the anglican church), but suddenly its not ok for one tiny Jewish state to define itself as such.

Well, tough. You cant apply this idealism solely to Israel.

[ljkeane]

Well, tough. You cant apply this idealism solely to Israel.

Has anyone said they are? So far as I can tell everyone has said they don't agree with it for any state.

ETA: The Church England isn't a state religion, it's an established church and the UK doesn't define itself as a Christian state but I'd agree that explicitly taking steps to fully disestablish the Church of England would be a good thing.

[Happy Ent]

All this idealism is nice and dandy, but the fact is there are 22 arab states, 51 muslim states, dozens of Christian states (many of which define themselves that way, for instance the head of the British state has to be of the anglican church), but suddenly its not ok for one tiny Jewish state to define itself as such.

Also, lots of democracies, which by their nature discriminate against their fascist population. Not to mention their Hamas supporters.

[Lord Slum]

The Palestinians should just go back to where they came from.

[TrueMetis]

Didn't think a new Gaza floatilla thread should be started for this. New video footage of the raid. Apparently one of the activists managed to smuggle a tape out.

My link

[Samalander]

The Palestinians should just go back to where they came from.

What, to Saudi Arabia? You won't find any Israeli Helen Thomas in this thread, my friend.

My link

Some things I take from this:

1) The IDF clearly started with shooting painball guns. Anyone who knows about these things can hear the sound is different from the regular gunfire later.

2) They conveniently didn't film the actual violence on the upper decks.

3) Loved the bloody knife shot next to one of the wounded. Peaceful activists, my ass.

4) They actually admit, on film, to holding two IDF soldiers by force. At this point, what did they think would happen?

5) Israeli MP Hanin Zuabi (female, dark hair, glasses), seems to be in the thick of it. Saying later she saw no evil is sounding like a bad lie.

Also her attempt to direct the camera away from her doesn't look good. I hope the AG brings her to justice.

This also shows that in the fiasco of trying to disqualify all but one Arab party from running to the Knesset last time, only one guy kept his head. The Knesset let populist motives drive them to be trigger happy with the disqalifications (also they knew the Supreme Court would rein them in), and the Supreme Court was so in love with their own reflection and their idea of an enlightened country they overturned all the disqalifications en masse, while ignoring the law and the facts. Only one man, Supreme Court justice Edmund Levi, said the party this woman belongs to is an evil enemy party (well, paraphrasing), and this party alone should be disqalified from Israeli political life. I think this whole country sees by now, that he was right.

6)_ Loved the comic bit in the end: "We are paeceful, don't shoot". :lmao:

[Spring Bass]

The Palestinians should just go back to where they came from.

So you support the full Right of Return for both the actual refugees and their descendants, then? I think it's an impractical position, but what the hell.

Well, tough. You cant apply this idealism solely to Israel

I don't. I find the idea of a state specifically geared towards a particular racial or religious group contemptible - it's not different than calling for an "Aryan state".