Dune

[LugaJetboyGirl]

What do you guys think about Herbert's idea about race consciousness as an uncontrollable push by the human race to combat feudalism and stagnation, the idea that as a collective race we innately strive to mix our genes, which is part of the reason wars happen? In Dune Paul was always thinking about how he couldn't stop the Jihad, but it wasn't because of the Fremen, but because of the 'invisible hand' of the human race aiming to mix genes.

[sologdin]

I like the Lynch film, what can I say?

oh, i didn't mean to suggest that the lynch dune is anything other than completely badass. it just has its amusing quirks--which didn't interfere with my own complete suspension of disbelief: the film made me insane, because i believed, at least during its run-time and for some short moments thereafter, that i was a citizen of arrakis, and that the losses and victories thereon were my losses and victories. it was very moving, but then the credits rolled, and the post-credits scene involved a dwarf in a stillsuit speaking backward, so that snapped me awake.

[sologdin]

dp. sorry.

[manmiles]

I like the Lynch film, what can I say?

oh, i didn't mean to suggest that the lynch dune is anything other than completely badass. it just has its amusing quirks--which didn't interfere with my own complete suspension of disbelief: the film made me insane, because i believed, at least during its run-time and for some short moments thereafter, that i was a citizen of arrakis, and that the losses and victories thereon were my losses and victories. it was very moving, but then the credits rolled, and the post-credits scene involved a dwarf in a stillsuit speaking backward, so that snapped me awake.

Hey, no, I'm not attacking you. I was totally agreeing with you!

[williamjm]

It's a real shame that Dune never got a film or other media that lives up to its awesomeness. The miniseries was certainly better than nothing, but this is the Lord of the Rings of Sci-Fi we're talking about here; it deserves more than that.

I've heard that there's an attempt to make a new Dune film, although it seems to have stalled. The Dune and Children of Dune miniseries were a reasonable attempt but the budgetary limitations were fairly obvious at times, I thought they did a better job with the overall story than Lynch's film did, although the best bits of Lynch's film are better than the miniseries.

[Lummel]

What do you guys think about Herbert's idea about race consciousness as an uncontrollable push by the human race to combat feudalism and stagnation, the idea that as a collective race we innately strive to mix our genes, which is part of the reason wars happen? In Dune Paul was always thinking about how he couldn't stop the Jihad, but it wasn't because of the Fremen, but because of the 'invisible hand' of the human race aiming to mix genes.

Err... Carl Gustav Jung meets Adam Smith in space?

I don't remember this very clearly from when I read the books but the way you put it makes it seem problematic to me. Firstly because of the emphasis on planned and selective breeding to bring about the Kwisatz Haderach and then to breed people whose freedom of action was outside of the predictive power/foresight/magical vision of Leto II seems to run counter to the idea of random gene mixing being a good idea. Secondly how long does the Jihad last? Doesn't Leto II's empire end up as stagnant and inbred as the old feudal system? If the race conscious' push for gene mixing is that strong a drive then how do these empires ever get to be stagnant shouldn't they be continually warlike and turbulent, or at least continually partner swapping on an interplanetary basis, rather than stagnating and apparently drifting along quite happily under feudalism for so long?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Lummel,

Because Leto's goal was to hold the empire in that condition for as long as possible to create the conditions that caused "the Scattering" that created a human population so large and dispersed than no single human pre-cog could use their pre-cognition to control that whole population.

[Lummel]

But that doesn't seem to fit very well with the human race being driven by their race consciousness to mix their genes. Or was the point that the separate groups would eventually evolve into separate species?

I suppose you could also say that if the conscious and unconscious minds were working separately then you might achieve a contradictory result.

The idea that warfare is the means to gene mixing seems rather particular. On the whole most of us do our gene mixing after a bit of a kiss and cuddle rather than after conquest and killing.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Lummel,

I think the point was that once Paul hit the scene Humanity couldn't compete with his precognition. Leto and Ghanima forced humanity on to the "Golden Path" because without it precogs would eventually push humanity to extinction.

[Lummel]

OK, I can see that. Ser Scot, you almost tempt me to reread the series!

[kiniro]

Hello, this is my first post here. I'm excited to take part in this forum. I'm a big fan of SF, though new to SF literature. I've tended to absorb the genre through games, movies, and television. Anyway, after reading some other fantastic books (Childhood's End, The Hunger Game, some Gene Wolfe short stories, Ender's Game, I Robot...) I decided to finally start up Dune. I'm familiar with the story and world he created, having played the old Dune RTS on sega genesis many years back, as well as having seen Lynch's movie, and some works greatly inspired by Herbert's world... so I was hugely excited to read the book. But, after about 50 pages, I'm shocked and confused and thinking of putting the book down. I was wondering if someone here could shed some light on the book and my view on it.

I absolutely adored the first chapter, I came away thoroughly impressed by the weirdness of the world Herbert creates with his thoughtful, original word choice... truly refreshing. Then I got to chapter 2, where the Harkonnens are introduced, and was soured as immediately as the first chapter impressed. The characters seemed so one-dimensional, so cookie-cutter that I couldn't believe that it was any fault of the author. Maybe it isn't, though, and I'm just bringing my own incorrect perspective into the mix.

Chapter two introduced you to three bad guys in a shadowy room. The leader is rich and fat (and described as such repeatedly), the leader's assistant is slender, sly, and vicious, while the pupil is young, naive, and arrogant. This would be passable if I was reading a story that is supposed to be fun but I have a hard time accepting this in a book that's supposed to be what many praise as the best SF story every written. And then there's the stereotypical cheesy dialogue that come from the mouths of these three Harkonnens as they describe their evil plan in full, making them come across as goofy instead of intimidating.

And then we get the character's thoughts narrated to us, swiftly defeating any reason for us to read into what is being said. Example:

"Listen carefully, Feyd," the Baron said. "Observe the plans within plans within plans."

Feyd-Rautha nodded, thinking: This is more like it. The old monster is letting me in on his secret things at last. He must really mean for me to be his heir.

After chapter 2, the dialogue and characterization improved. However, the narration of the character's thoughts continued... something I really haven't been able to accept.

Anyway, I hope I'm flat out wrong here and have somehow come up with a different tone or purpose that Herbert didn't intend. I've been looking through many reviews online to see if anyone else brought up the issues I have , but not one person mentioned them... making me think that I'm just flat out wrong (which I'd be glad to be).

Can anyone here talk a bit about this? And do you think I should continue reading?

[Lummel]

I'll give it a go. And by the way: welcome.

Firstly I'd say continue reading. Secondly I'd say yes the narration of the characters thoughts continues on and off and the characters are fairly flat on the whole. Thirdly I'd take with a big pinch of salt any claims made about anything to be the best.

So why continue? Well the faults you pick up on aren't really all that relevent to the novel. The surface political plot - with Baron Harkonnen explaining his cunning plan to his less than cunning nephew is incidental. It's a bit of an info dump and more importantly gives you a taste of what kind of people these are and what their minds are focused on. The characters are flat, but as you get into the book you see that they are meant to be, there is a logic behind why they are blinkered and two-dimensional.

Dune is classical science fiction, in my opinion, because it's all about big concepts and big ideas and the fun and enjoyment of Dune for me is in those ideas. I don't want to be spoilery so I'll say it's big picture rather than details. Reading Dune you start from what seems to be big picture political intrigue and gradually realise that there is an even bigger picture of which the initial picture is just a part, then slowly you see that behind that there is an even bigger one. As the reader you're like the maggot that has chewed its way out of the apple and sees the extent of the universe for the first time.

It looks like a big fat book all about space politics, but venture in a little deeper and it's something quite different.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Kiniro,

The Harkonnens are mustashe twirlers. But, particularly the Baron and Feyd are quite competent mustashe twirlers. After the first book the villians motives get less villiany.

[LugaJetboyGirl]

I don't remember this very clearly from when I read the books but the way you put it makes it seem problematic to me. Firstly because of the emphasis on planned and selective breeding to bring about the Kwisatz Haderach and then to breed people whose freedom of action was outside of the predictive power/foresight/magical vision of Leto II seems to run counter to the idea of random gene mixing being a good idea. Secondly how long does the Jihad last? Doesn't Leto II's empire end up as stagnant and inbred as the old feudal system? If the race conscious' push for gene mixing is that strong a drive then how do these empires ever get to be stagnant shouldn't they be continually warlike and turbulent, or at least continually partner swapping on an interplanetary basis, rather than stagnating and apparently drifting along quite happily under feudalism for so long?

Well, the whole race consciousness thing was particularly important in Dune rather than the later novels, in my mind. [i'll spoiler the rest for kiniro's benefit.]

Paul was struggling throughout Dune with his role in the coming Jihad - he was always thinking to himself that he would like to change that outcome but as much as he struggled, the race consciousness was too strong and the Jihad happened anyways (it's only 12 years, btw, iirc). There seemed to be three gene-mixing options in Dune: stagnation due to the universe's feudalistic ways; the careful, long-term Bene Gesserit breeding program; and the wild mixing of genes, which apparently the human race as a whole prefers, to the bane of order and peace. In the end Paul gives in to the race consciousness by owning the Jihad, while at the same time, by being the un-Kwisatz Haderach, he essentially blocks the Bene Gesserit breeding program.

In Messiah and Children of Dune they pretty much never mention the 'race consciousness' again. I still have to re-read the rest of the series so I don't remember if it really comes up again. The idea of stagnation and perpetual order is a major theme, as is the careful breeding program in order to create an 'invisible' person, but I don't remember that crushing the human race's desire to mix genes was part of Leto's stagnation plan.

And kiniro, I'm with you on the one dimensionality of the characters. This time on my re-read I discovered that Dune was not as exceptional as I remembered - it's hard to look at someone like Baron Harkonnen after reading enough George RR Martin. Jessica bothered me, too, but I won't say more since you haven't finished yet. :)

edit: spoiler fail

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

LJBG,

What's wrong with Jessica? Too much "I did it for Leto." Pineing?

As I said before the Harkonnen's like to twirl their Mustashes however given the later revelations about the extended family I give them a bit of a pass. The Baron and Feyd are simply sociopaths who are entitled nobles and quite powerhungry. IMHO.

[Lummel]

LugaJetBoyGirl,

the whole race consciousness business reminds me of C G Jung's notion of the collective unconscious but reading what you said about race consciousness it slowly came back to me.

I think Leto II's policy of stagnation is designed to act like a pressure cooker so that after his death the lid is suddenly taken off and humanity explodes out the pot across the universe.

However for me as I said above this creates the difficulty that the wild gene mixing is presumably going to get increasingly more difficult the more widely humanity is scattered and this for me seems to run counter to wild gene mixing being such a powerful drive in the race consciousness which would logically keep humanity rather more concentrated so as to better facilitate a bit of gene mixing on saturday nights.

There's that conflict isn't there between Paula and his son over the Golden Path which Paul wants to avoid but which Leto accepts. But the real winner is the ideal of selective breeding programmes - the notion of a race consciousness otherwise only seems to feature in the ability of certain Atredes to tap into the consciousnesses of their ancestors.

I think on the characterisation I say two things, obviously I'll agree with Ser Scot that the Harkonnens are melodramatic but secondly Herbert was (according to mighty wikipedia) influenced by systems thinking. The personalities are in that sense irrelevant they are caught up in a political system, but the political system of the feudal empire is itself subordinate to the technological structures that allow space travel and that itself is caught up in the ecological system of Arrakis and it is Arrakis that is the most interesting 'personality' in Dune I think.

Like Ser Scot I'm interested in your take on Jessica. Using my limited powers of cognition I guess

is it the way that Jessica comes across as a strong and determined character in the early part of the book and then fades into the background once she becomes the mother superior of the fremen?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Lummel,

In response to your first spoiler comments above:

I think you nailed it. That exactly what Leto and Ghanima were attempting with the Golden Path. Further, I think he was pushing population in the Old Empire higher and higher so that when it scattered there were viable human populations in each of the newly scattered locations.

In an odd way it was almost like creating a plethora of totipotent human embyros then sending all of those embryos out into the Universe with the knowledge that each one has the capacity to become completely and uniquely human. That the vastness of the numbers of embryos prevents an individual precog from being able to accurately predict all of their behaviors and thereby control those behaviors. It was the ultimate insurance policy against another Kwizatz Haderach and Jihad. No individual KH would have the capacity to predict each of the vast numbers of human cells that exist across the vastness of the Universe. A KH would arise in one or another cell from time to time but never all of them and never at the same time. There were simply far too many cells and all of them were complex, complete, and unique.

I like that.

[LugaJetboyGirl]

That's a good point about systems thinking, Lummel. That makes a little more sense, given his characterization FAIL.

As for the Lady Jessica,

on the surface she seems like a totally kick-ass, bad-mofo chick. A strong female character to look up to. It's nice to have women like her in books. The only problem I had, of course, was her characterization. She was cold, calculating, pratical. She and Paul made a great team because they trusted each other's instincts and reactions thanks to years of Bene Gesserit training together. They both had to make some hard decisions, but those decisions were necessary for their survival. But honestly, I never once felt like Jessica had any love for her son, at all. Sure, there was that 10 seconds of motherly worry during the Gom Jabbur incident, but that was it. When we got Jessica's POV, there was no indication that she had any real affection for Paul (in contrast to, for example, Paul's feelings for Chani).

So she's got pretty much no love for her son, but then randomly Herbert throws in things about how much she pines for 'her beloved duke.' She's all romantic and over the top with Leto I, which in my mind is totally out-of-character with the way she appears in the first three books. To me it is a plot device to explain why she gave birth to a son rather than a daughter - oh, swoon, she must be head over heels for her beloved duke, true love, la!... even though she is practically incapable of feeling love for anyone else, including her own children and grandchildren.

To me it is a sign of an incompletely drawn character. Which fits with Lummel's point about systems thinking, I guess.

[sologdin]

thread has inspired me to rebuy the original six books; am diligently working my way through them.

i note that the narrative of part I might be described as follows, allowing an intermediate level of generality:

noble house physically moves to the seat of power; head of household is killed with many loyal retainers by enemy house in collusion with the house that holds de jure state power. survivors of defeated house are scattered, but develop new abilities and make new allies, involving a prophecy and the use of creatures taken from a specific natural environment, in order to effect their revenge.

we might also describe it this way, however:

scion of noble house develops special skillz and enlists specially-trained desert warriors to destroy enemies of civilization, relying in doing so on several overlapping prophecies, both of a female-only secret society regarding the admission of a male member, which the scion implicitly joins and co-opts even while they desire to control him, and of a messiah for the desert warriors aforesaid.

we might further describe it this way:

scion of ancient royalty, itself now destroyed, acquires special skills at predicting the behavior of others, and uses same, along with the secret teachings of several select groups, to found a new empire.

i've read those narratives in other books recently, so i think some fancypantsed loyar needs to send mr. herbert a cease and desist letter on behalf of these other stories.

[Jon AS]

i've read those narratives in other books recently, so i think some fancypantsed loyar needs to send mr. herbert a cease and desist letter on behalf of these other stories.

:rofl:

Clearly this kind of blatant plagiarism cannot be tolerated!