Dune

[Lummel]

thread has inspired me to rebuy the original six books; am diligently working my way through them.

...

i've read those narratives in other books recently, so i think some fancypantsed loyar needs to send mr. herbert a cease and desist letter on behalf of these other stories.

Heh? (thinks: Jimmy McNulty quote).

Lucky for us that no wicked, wicked lawman has taken such a step or we'd be left with only the seven, or however many, stories that there are in the world.

[Toshio.Keepiru]

Ignore the people who don't like Heretics and Chapterhouse. They're great books and well worth the read. Opinions vary but at least give them a shot. Just don't ever read Sandworms of Dune and Hunters of Dune. They're complete crap and not even close to true sequels to Chapterhouse Dune.

Heretics and Chapterhouse are my favorites after the first book. That story arc really showed promise, unfortunately the last book(s) never were written.

No I don't believe that Hunters or Sandworms count.... they change the nature of two characters made their first appearance in Chapterhouse too much and in a way that is not very believable.

[Gigei]

That's a good point about systems thinking, Lummel. That makes a little more sense, given his characterization FAIL.

As for the Lady Jessica,

on the surface she seems like a totally kick-ass, bad-mofo chick. A strong female character to look up to. It's nice to have women like her in books. The only problem I had, of course, was her characterization. She was cold, calculating, pratical. She and Paul made a great team because they trusted each other's instincts and reactions thanks to years of Bene Gesserit training together. They both had to make some hard decisions, but those decisions were necessary for their survival. But honestly, I never once felt like Jessica had any love for her son, at all. Sure, there was that 10 seconds of motherly worry during the Gom Jabbur incident, but that was it. When we got Jessica's POV, there was no indication that she had any real affection for Paul (in contrast to, for example, Paul's feelings for Chani).

So she's got pretty much no love for her son, but then randomly Herbert throws in things about how much she pines for 'her beloved duke.' She's all romantic and over the top with Leto I, which in my mind is totally out-of-character with the way she appears in the first three books. To me it is a plot device to explain why she gave birth to a son rather than a daughter - oh, swoon, she must be head over heels for her beloved duke, true love, la!... even though she is practically incapable of feeling love for anyone else, including her own children and grandchildren.

To me it is a sign of an incompletely drawn character. Which fits with Lummel's point about systems thinking, I guess.

I don't see it like that at all. Just because you love one guy doesn't mean you will automatically love another. Leto is not Paul.

Besides, as a concubine to the duke she was expected to be all sexy and loving while as a mother to Paul she has to be cold and ruthless to help him out.

It works for me.

As for the flat characters like Baron Harkonnen and Feyd-Ruatha, honestly they are like 1% or less of the books so I don't really bother myself about them.

[Serious Callers Only]

What do you guys think about Herbert's idea about race consciousness as an uncontrollable push by the human race to combat feudalism and stagnation, the idea that as a collective race we innately strive to mix our genes, which is part of the reason wars happen? In Dune Paul was always thinking about how he couldn't stop the Jihad, but it wasn't because of the Fremen, but because of the 'invisible hand' of the human race aiming to mix genes.

It's also a feature of the later books - remember that weird crowd frenzy scene involving Siona Sheeana on ... Chapterhouse dune i think?

I always thought the Butlerian Jihad had much more to do with this in Herbert mind than any AI overlords. Just the alien overmind getting jealous. One scene in Children of Dune where Leto is zonked out of his mind by melange seems to support this (it describes part of a anti-machine 'sermon' during the BJ).

That's a good point about systems thinking, Lummel. That makes a little more sense, given his characterization FAIL.

As for the Lady Jessica,

on the surface she seems like a totally kick-ass, bad-mofo chick. A strong female character to look up to. It's nice to have women like her in books. The only problem I had, of course, was her characterization. She was cold, calculating, pratical. She and Paul made a great team because they trusted each other's instincts and reactions thanks to years of Bene Gesserit training together. They both had to make some hard decisions, but those decisions were necessary for their survival. But honestly, I never once felt like Jessica had any love for her son, at all. Sure, there was that 10 seconds of motherly worry during the Gom Jabbur incident, but that was it. When we got Jessica's POV, there was no indication that she had any real affection for Paul (in contrast to, for example, Paul's feelings for Chani).

So she's got pretty much no love for her son, but then randomly Herbert throws in things about how much she pines for 'her beloved duke.' She's all romantic and over the top with Leto I, which in my mind is totally out-of-character with the way she appears in the first three books. To me it is a plot device to explain why she gave birth to a son rather than a daughter - oh, swoon, she must be head over heels for her beloved duke, true love, la!... even though she is practically incapable of feeling love for anyone else, including her own children and grandchildren.

To me it is a sign of an incompletely drawn character. Which fits with Lummel's point about systems thinking, I guess.

Worst part is that he makes her revert to bene gesserit 'above all' mentality later on, and makes it a point to remind us of this many times, even unto chapterhouse. Granted, that crap about Alia/Paul probably justifies most of that.

[Serious Callers Only]

Dune is my most favourite mystical sci-fi. The Childe Cycle is weirder though. Truly Gordon R. Dickson must have partaken unto the L. S. and D.

I wonder what would happen if Bakker would write a book under the influence...

[Gigei]

I just thought of something.

Harkonnen is set up as a monster and there is a reason for this because there needs to be at least one character that is evil (realy bad andl evil and not just ambitious or greedy) for the Alia abomination plot later on.

[Serious Callers Only]

It's not only the Baron (rapist, pederast). The whole damn planet is implied to be vaguely morally reprehensible. Not to mention F. R. (rapist, murderer) and 'the beast Rabban' (war criminal). In Heretics the Harkonnen no ship is described with unusually lurid sexual decorations (there is even a amusing little 'historical' analysis about the decadence of giedi prime then, from a bene gesserit no less - though i think it's on the context of slapping Duncan down for assuming things continue as they were). The man just wanted villains out for base pleasure. Granted, it's a very, very small part of the book, that i don't really care about. Count Ferring, the Bene Gesserit or the Emphrah are much better villains anti-heroes anyway. Always liked Irulan too - though i guess a feminist might have some problem with her later characterization. Dune is a bit sexist after all, amazing female characters or not, spontaneous orgasms from assassinations of cult leaders is something i'd never read before GEoD.

Duncan should have stayed dead. And physical superpowers should have never been introduced in Heretics. Heck, the Honoured Matres are just a embarrassing concept too (and to a lesser extent, the fishspeakers and their rationale).

There are lots of things i love about the later books (all the Bene Gesserit stuff, most of high concept golden path, some of the Tlexlaxu getting their heads up their own ass, most of the sense of history), but also many things to criticize.

Dune Messiah smashes the Dune 'mythology' to bits; of the 'prophet' and his 'warriors' by showing that Paul is increasingly trapped and the 'warriors' are busy genociding with the empire behind them. This is on purpose, so it's ok. Pity it had to be so boring. The villain 'conspiracy' is just pathetic too, weakest showing of the Bene Gesserit on the series.

Dune's Children butchers Alia as a character, and tangentially Jessica too. Ghanima, is no replacement either. It also introduces the horrible tradition of making Duncan come back too.

I like GEoD, but Hwi is just a horrible character to read about. Other people hate Leto the windbag. Duncan.

Heretics has very neat bits with the 'almost' oracular Bene Gesserit character, but has the Honoured Matres, 'sexual imprinting' and ends with the derp of flash super speed power. And Duncan.

Chapterhouse is a neat middle novel and as usual in those, nothing much happens until the end but the 'climax' is a bit ... err, did i mention i don't like the HM and like the BG?

[The Mediocore Ron]

DUNE was one of my favorite books growing up and I have a lot of thoughts I'd like to share. DUNE and ASOIAF share many elements: feuding Noble Houses, prophecies, fantastic creatures, etc.from classical storytelling. The difference is in the authorial intent. To me Herbert is exploring how the individual is trapped by Fate, or expectations, or patterns of history. GRRM I think is subverting that idea. Let's take the example of character. Many complain that Herbert's characters are flat, but I say they are archtypes we are meant to relate to on a subconscious level. GRRM starts the same but slowly enriches the characters. The Starks aren't perfect; they make mistakes. Lannisters I hated at first, but now I have some sympathy and understanding for them. The Boltons seem as evil as the Harkonnens, but GRRM might change that by the end of the series. GRRM uses multi-POV to expand the readers understanding. I'll write more if this thread continues.

[Tears of Lys]

I don't see it like that at all. Just because you love one guy doesn't mean you will automatically love another. Leto is not Paul.

Besides, as a concubine to the duke she was expected to be all sexy and loving while as a mother to Paul she has to be cold and ruthless to help him out.

It works for me.

As for the flat characters like Baron Harkonnen and Feyd-Ruatha, honestly they are like 1% or less of the books so I don't really bother myself about them.

"Like." I agree with the spoilered bit.

Serious Callers, you've succeeded in making me want to reread the Dune saga from the beginning. There's parts of your posts that have really gotten me to reexamine how I view these books. Not in a negative way, mind. Besides, nothing could make me dislike them. But I feel like I'll get a deeper understanding now.

[Serious Callers Only]

Oh, i'm a major fan too. Must have read the (real) series about 10 times over the years. This is the best dune forum i've found, if you want to read pointless digressions on the topic.

[Gigei]

I thought that the Ghola bit was squicky but rather realistic. I mean that in the sense that if cloning was available and not illegal, what would stop you from cloning a person again and again? If you had an Einstein in your university would you not get his clone after he died then another clone after that clone died?

And there were a lot of little details in the books that I particularly like. I remember the stillsuit and stilltent impressed me a lot when I read about them.

[Toshio.Keepiru]

Chapterhouse is a neat middle novel and as usual in those, nothing much happens until the end but the 'climax' is a bit ... err, did i mention i don't like the HM and like the BG?

Perhaps Frank Herbert planned to conclude the storyline started by Heretics and Chapterhouse and couldn't due to an untimely death?

As for Duncan Idaho's powers. He really didn't have any except for exceptional training and for some reason being able to remember his other Ghola lives in addition to his original life despite not having cells from all of the other Ghola's... but then who knows what the Tleilaxu were doing with his cells.

I liked those two novels much better than you did needless to say.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

Does anyone else think of the new Google Glasses and think of the Tleilaxu? I mean I could see optic implants from Google in the future just like those metal eyes offered to Paul in Messiah...

Perhaps Frank Herbert planned to conclude the storyline started by Heretics and Chapterhouse and couldn't due to an untimely death?

That's exactly what happened. His son has finished the trilogy based off some long lost notes or some shit, which I don't believe, but it is known that Frank Herbert intended to finish out the second trilogy and Chapterhouse wasn't the end.

[lokisnow]

Does anyone else think of the new Google Glasses and think of the Tleilaxu? I mean I could see optic implants from Google in the future just like those metal eyes offered to Paul in Messiah...

no I think of Snow Crash or The Diamond Age

[Toshio.Keepiru]

That's exactly what happened. His son has finished the trilogy based off some long lost notes or some shit, which I don't believe, but it is known that Frank Herbert intended to finish out the second trilogy and Chapterhouse wasn't the end.

I agree about the sequels written by Frank Herbert's son. There is some serious retconning going on considering the hints two characters gave about who they were and then what they suddenly turn out to be....

[sologdin]

you mean the last scene of VI vs. the son's finale? yeah, turned out differently than i'd've predicted.

[Toshio.Keepiru]

Yeah, the old couple talking like they were one thing... then all of a sudden they're something else....

It's not as if a certain threat would not have existed if Frank Herbert actually lived to finish that trilogy. But I get the feeling Frank Herbert's version would have made more sense than changing a couple of characters from what they were in a previous book.

[Serious Callers Only]

Funny, i get the sense that KJA is a hack so i never even considered buying those books. YMMV.

[thecryptile]

Triskele: That was probably a Fear Factory shirt. http://www.dresscodeclothing.com/product.aspx?sku=HF-FFT-1001&gclid=CLDzue3j8bgCFZOk4AoddjsAiQ

Fear is the Mindkiller was the Remix EP of their first album Soul of a New Machine.

The band has a strong SF influence.

[honeyed chicken]

DUNE was one of my favorite books growing up and I have a lot of thoughts I'd like to share. DUNE and ASOIAF share many elements: feuding Noble Houses, prophecies, fantastic creatures, etc.from classical storytelling. The difference is in the authorial intent. To me Herbert is exploring how the individual is trapped by Fate, or expectations, or patterns of history. GRRM I think is subverting that idea. Let's take the example of character. Many complain that Herbert's characters are flat, but I say they are archtypes we are meant to relate to on a subconscious level. GRRM starts the same but slowly enriches the characters. The Starks aren't perfect; they make mistakes. Lannisters I hated at first, but now I have some sympathy and understanding for them. The Boltons seem as evil as the Harkonnens, but GRRM might change that by the end of the series. GRRM uses multi-POV to expand the readers understanding. I'll write more if this thread continues.

Completely agree. Has GRRM ever spoken about Herbert and whether some parts of ASOIAF might be an homage to Dune?

And the parallel I see is the between the Atreides family and their servants and soldiers, and the Stark family and their retinue. After their betrayals you see the cost is felt all the way through the family's organization and in Dune some Atreides people were picked up by the enemy. For example, Thufir Hawat being mentat for the Baron. Imagine maester Luwin or Rodrik Cassel going to work for Cersei.

The reasons they are set up for a fall are different: the emperor's strategic considerations (the Atreides had trained some soldiers up almost to the class of the Sardaukar - and the emperor saw them as a threat to be removed) versus LF's more personal ones (revenge on Ned and creating chaos he could exploit The results are (and will be) quite different in some respects. The grand revenge moment can't happen because most of the orignal protagonists and antagonists are dead.

However, if you see Paul Muad Dib as a warrior mystic, you could say Robb and Bran equal him after a fashion with Robb as the warrior/political leader (KitN) and Bran the mystic, god head (if he does go on to become chief weirwood.)

Quick story:

I'm driving home on Sunset is the LA area by the somewhat famous Whisky a Go Go yesterday.

I don't know who the act was, but the traffic is kind of slow, and I see some roadie-types carrying gear in. One the back of one of their shirts in huge letters it simply states "FEAR IS THE MIND KILLER."

That is all.

I like that story.

I think of that line all the time when Arya goes into one of Syrio calming mantras. it's "fear is the little mind killer" all over.

Duncan should have stayed dead. And physical superpowers should have never been introduced in Heretics. Heck, the Honoured Matres are just a embarrassing concept too (and to a lesser extent, the fishspeakers and their rationale).

Dune Messiah smashes the Dune 'mythology' to bits; of the 'prophet' and his 'warriors' by showing that Paul is increasingly trapped and the 'warriors' are busy genociding with the empire behind them. This is on purpose, so it's ok. Pity it had to be so boring. The villain 'conspiracy' is just pathetic too, weakest showing of the Bene Gesserit on the series.

Chapterhouse is a neat middle novel and as usual in those, nothing much happens until the end but the 'climax' is a bit ... err, did i mention i don't like the HM and like the BG?

Herbert came into Dune with some many great, fresh ideas. In terms of new concepts he never came close with any of the subsequent books, although I like them all to some extent. I too was not keen on the fish speakers and HM, though the HM seemed a little more fleshed out as an idea, where with the fish speakers I kept thinking there has to be more to them. There's so little reason to have them at all, they're so slight.

I agree that Dune Messiah is boring, but there's also something Shakespearean abut it that I like and admire.

The great man trapped in his own myth web - which isn't necessarily a story Shakespeare did, but I see parallels.

The end of Chapterhouse leaves me queasy as well. The BG merged into the HM?? Lordy.