What's wrong with 20-somethings?

[Old Nan]

Fascinating; what "modern movements" are those in regard to the issues being discussed in this thread?

Destruction of the Four Olds. The Red Guards in particular and the Cultural Revolution in general. A pity the Communists didn’t succeed in their task quite as well as the French revolutionaries did before the inevitable backlash, but they did strike a blow against Confucianism that needed to be struck.

You find my position needlessly nihilistic; I find yours needlessly totalitarian. Very well; that’s the way of the world.

[The Progressive]

Destruction of the Four Olds. The Red Guards in particular and the Cultural Revolution in general. A pity the Communists didn’t succeed in their task quite as well as the French revolutionaries did before the inevitable backlash, but they did strike a blow against Confucianism that needed to be struck.

You find my position needlessly nihilistic; I find yours needlessly totalitarian.

Lol, I find it highly amusing that you're calling my position "totalitarian" while professing admiration for the Red Guards and Cultural Revolution.

Very well; that’s the way of the world.

I'm not sure we're living in the same space-time continuum.

[Display Name]

Destruction of the Four Olds. The Red Guards in particular and the Cultural Revolution in general. A pity the Communists didn’t succeed in their task quite as well as the French revolutionaries did before the inevitable backlash, but they did strike a blow against Confucianism that needed to be struck.

You find my position needlessly nihilistic; I find yours needlessly totalitarian. Very well; that’s the way of the world.

Because mass killings of civilians doesn't matter as long as my political agenda is advanced, right?

[Old Nan]

Because mass killings of civilians doesn't matter as long as my political agenda is advanced, right?

Valar morghulis. Sooner, later, it doesn't matter. What matters is how well people live.

[The Progressive]

What matters is how well people live.

Well that didn't work out too well for the people who failed to survive the Red Guards and the Cultural Revolution purges.

I admit curiosity for something you wrote earlier and hopefully you could share some more of your insights with us if it's not too much of a burden .......... so when you wrote that "my parents, for instance, were perfectly satisfactory and I loved them not at all", what do you mean by "satisfactory" and how would you characterize your feeling toward them?

[Guest Raidne]

You know what's actually kind of fun? Reading Nan's posts aloud to yourself in your best Mr. Burns voice. You can also do the Bond villian of your choice. Tim Curry from Clue the Movie. Lots of possibilities.

[Display Name]

Valar morghulis. Sooner, later, it doesn't matter. What matters is how well people live.

I'm guessing you've never witnessed a violent death.

[Old Nan]

Lol, I find it highly amusing that you're calling my position "totalitarian" while professing admiration for the Red Guards and Cultural Revolution.

There's a totalitarianism of politics, in which you must parrot the politically correct phrasings and plant crops as the central planners dictate and forge steel in your fireplace, and there's an intimate totalitarianism of culture, which is more, well, totalizing by far. What is being a good comrade next to being a good person?

when you wrote that "my parents, for instance, were perfectly satisfactory and I loved them not at all", what do you mean by "satisfactory" and how would you characterize your feeling toward them?

They provided as they were expected to provide and did not abuse. My feeling? I have none. They've been of no use to me for decades, nor have I interacted with them since achieving my majority.

[The Progressive]

There's a totalitarianism of politics, in which you must parrot the politically correct phrasings and plant crops as the central planners dictate and forge steel in your fireplace, and there's an intimate totalitarianism of culture, which is more, well, totalizing by far. What is being a good comrade next to being a good person?

I see. So any bond between parents and children = intimate totalitarian of culture and a good person should discard and reject them ........ but what do you mean by "good" though? Sounds awfully vague.

They provided as they were expected to provide and did not abuse. My feeling? I have none. They've been of no use to me for decades, nor have I interacted with them since achieving my majority.

Fascinating; don't you think that you at least owe them some monetary compensation for the resources (foods, clothings, shelter, medical,etc.) they've contributed to your upbringing?

[Display Name]

I'm guessing you've never witnessed a violent death.

Actually, screw that. You are starting to sound like you suffer from psychopathy.

[cjfshaw]

I was curious to see what yal' thought of my generation. Unfortunately these last ~10 posts have nothing at all to do with that. At any rate, I feel like a lot of the people my age are terrible terrible human beings who all think they are awesome. That is probably why they are so slow to grow up and move out and shit, because people who are hiring realize that they don't want to hire bros and douche canoes.

[Display Name]

I was curious to see what yal' thought of my generation. Unfortunately these last ~10 posts have nothing at all to do with that. At any rate, I feel like a lot of the people my age are terrible terrible human beings who all think they are awesome. That is probably why they are so slow to grow up and move out and shit, because people who are hiring realize that they don't want to hire bros and douche canoes.

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing that at all in Sweden. Either I'm blind or it's more of an American problem than a generational one?

[cjfshaw]

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing that at all in Sweden. Either I'm blind or it's more of an American problem than a generational one?

I would have no problem believing it's an American problem.

[Guest Raidne]

Assuming you're a teenager, it's impossible to say, because so many teenagers are terrible people who think they're awesome, and relatively fewer of them are still that way at, say, 25.

So, give a decade or so and we'll see if you're actually more awful that the generation that preceded you. One thing you can be sure of: there will be plenty of journalists willing to write about it.

[S John]

I was curious to see what yal' thought of my generation. Unfortunately these last ~10 posts have nothing at all to do with that. At any rate, I feel like a lot of the people my age are terrible terrible human beings who all think they are awesome. That is probably why they are so slow to grow up and move out and shit, because people who are hiring realize that they don't want to hire bros and douche canoes.

How old are you? I'm pretty young, but I identify more with a slightly older generation because I'm on the tail end of people who did most of their growing up without internet + cell phones. Both of which didn't really become life necessities for EVERYONE ON EARTH until I was in college. My sister is 6 years younger and while there is plenty of overlap, I don't know if we could really be part of the same group.

[Fez]

How old are you? I'm pretty young, but I identify more with a slightly older generation because I'm on the tail end of people who did most of their growing up without internet + cell phones. Both of which didn't really become life necessities for EVERYONE ON EARTH until I was in college. My sister is 6 years younger and while there is plenty of overlap, I don't know if we could really be part of the same group.

I'm a few years younger than you, but I sorta feel the same. Everyone was getting cell phones and relying on the internet for everything when I was high school, and even though I was young I distinctly remember what life was like beforehand. Despite overlap in a lot of things, I think there is a pretty sharp gap between people who did any growing up at all without constant data-access and those who did. I was shocked when my 10-year old cousins got smart phones from their parents. I remember being 10, and I had absolutely no use for something like that, and I probably would have lost or broken it within a week.

And Cap, I never met a teenager that wasn't a terrible person, I know I was one. College/Trade Jobs sort them all out fairly quickly however.

[Balefont]

Yeah, think this is a key point. The reason a lot of 20 somethings don't have jobs is because they're in school. Because they have to be.

20-30 years ago a bachelor's degree was all it took to get a decent job. The equivalent to a college degree back then is a masters degree now. And as QC mentions, even that's no guarantee these days.

Very true and I agree that is a huge factor. That said, I also believe the whole "follow your dream/path" mantra that many youngin's are fed is not properly balanced with "but be prepared if what you love and choose to do won't pay your bills or cover all your wants". It's the lack of balance in upbringing, imho, that adds fuel to the lack of accountability fire.

As I've said before, my daughter (who'll be 13 on Monday, gods help me) is being raised with love assurance that she is a special. However, this is tempered with also telling her that though she is special to us and loved by us and her family, it doesn't mean the rest of the world is going to automatically think so, too. She is being raised to understand that she needs to earn her place in the world, whatever that place may be.

As far as the premise of the article is concerned, I think there are a lot of factors contributing to what appears to be a generation of slackers. But as others have pointed out, we can find examples of every recent generation being accused of being a generation of slackers. As far as the obstacles I think 20-somethings are facing, here are a couple (of which some have already touched on in prior posts):

- Watering down of value of a college degree due to more and more seeking Masters and PhDs. This is probably also due to people wanting a more competitive edge as the number of college graduates increased year over year. Which extends the period of time young adults are students to a period beyond 22 or so which means they have to live with mom and dad a bit longer...

- The cost of living is ridiculous even in areas that are not known to be expensive. Some one mentioned earlier about the right of passage of working shit jobs in your teens so you could buy some gallons of gas or whatever. When I started driving, gas was about $1.25 a gallon where I live. Now it's about $3.00 a gallon. Food is expensive, too. The 'basics' are just so difficult to cover without a decent paying job. Don't even get me started on the cost of housing.

Maybe we could just say that the cost of 'entry' into 'adult life' is disproportionately higher than it was in preceding generations and the cost continues to outpace pay at an exponential rate. So it's no wonder that so many these 'young ones' (so speaketh this early 30-something) are having a harder and harder time getting their asses out the door and on their way to their own, independent lives.

I dunno, imo, most parents with "free-loader" kids are getting what they themselves are responsible for creating.

</rambling>

[Erik of Hazelfield]

Ok, so here's what "wrong" with me:

I left home shortly before my 23rd birthday. I suppose that's kind of late, but I was getting along fine with my folks and since I was going to university in the same town, it just wasn't worth it to move out any sooner. Now at 26 I've finally gotten a full-time job, but I'm single at the moment so I can't yet put the last two milestones behind me. However, even if I was seeing someone, marriage and children would have been out of the question until very recently because I hadn't reached the third milestone (financial independency).

My point is that more often than not, postponing marriage and children isn't about being self-indulgent or some diffuse idea of freedom. On the contrary, it's about being responsible. I think I speak for most 20-somethings when I say I don't want any children until I have a steady income and a steady relationship - and if that doesn't happen until I'm 30, well, so be it. For me, it doesn't seem to.

It's not really that strange. I can see several reasons why many of the milestones take longer for our generation:

1) We study for a longer time. As jobs get more and more advanced, we need more and more education.

2) We engage in loads of side-activities during studies; sports, music, student clubs/unions, working extra... Nowadays most employers expect you to have led a rich life outside the studies. It's easier getting a job if you're 25 with lots of experience (even if it's not relevant to the actual job) than if you're 22 and have gone directly from high school to university and done nothing of interest except achieving high grades. [Disclaimer: Some of this may be specific to Sweden.]

3) The economy is shaky, and we're the first ones getting the sack if our company needs to lay off people. It's no fun having a family to feed if you're unemployed. There's a myth going on about how 20-somethings want flexibility and freedom from obligations, but in reality there are studies showing we prioritize a secure job with a steady income just as much as anyone else.

4) There's a lot of pressure on young adults these days. Every day we're bombarded with ads and TV shows and tabloids telling us how to be smart, healthy, productive, rich, happy, environment-friendly... And above all, to realize our dreams. Somehow it's no longer acceptable to have a low-status job and be content with it. How many Hollywood movies are about decorators compared to the number of movies about lawyers?

There are two natural reactions to this:

4a) To give up being a grown-up and just try to have fun instead.

4b) To try in every way to be the perfect person that society tells you to be. But this takes time, and by the time you have a fit body, a high-status job, a beautiful spouse and you feel ready to have children, chances are you're already 30-something.

I'm not saying some of us aren't irresponsible, I'm just saying you have to look at the reality we have to live in. The world changes, and the people with it. The society that we build together now shapes the lives of the next generation.

[cjfshaw]

I'm not a teenager, I'm 22, which means I'm around people who are graduating and going into the professional world.

[Guest Raidne]

Oh, I'm confused. I thought the entire thread was about people your age.

I think the consensus is that they all were raised to think they're special, special snowflakes and that everything they want is going to be handed to them on a silver platter because they deserve it for being so awesome.

ETA: Also, of all of my friends, precisely one went directly into the job market after graduation with a bachelor's degree. The software engineer, naturally. Everyone else I know was tied up for a few more years. In my case, I started my first "real" job with a career track two weeks after I turned 30. People who are 22-25 are supposed to have roommates either go to school or learn to suppress during-the-week the hangovers while working hard enough to support all the partying.