What's wrong with 20-somethings?

[litechick]

Shryke, if MLK can't get through to you I have no illusions of possible success.

The point is that you are the one determining what is a "shit job". The job is not shit in the objective sense. You also have the power to find satisfaction, creativity and beauty in any job.

One of my favorite things to do is wrap cables. It gives me pleasure to take a cable which is twisted and unruly and turn it into a perfect coil. I don't expect that you can understand that.

Your complaints imply that someone should be trying to please you and why the suffering fuck should they? Only if you have established yourself at the top of your game and are a highly contested prize in the job market.

I hestitate to even touch on the condescension implied toward the people who do 'shit jobs.' It's good enough for them but not you. That's the way to impress people with your worth.

I will concede that you have an admirable self-defense mechanism going though. If you fail it's not your fault. It's the boss, the company, the whole stupid capitalist system. Well done.

[cjfshaw]

What's so unreasonable about this? First-year residency was previously known as an "internship", and the responsibilities at that level haven't changed much even so. And that's after an undergrad degree plus 3-4 years of med school. If MDs can suffer the apparent indignity of being interns or residents, I think game designers (or anyone else) can manage too. I mean... what do you expect?

TBH I probably should have said something more along the lines of "hate the idea of working as an intern" or "think it's ridiculous to work as an intern after you've completed a graduate degree" as opposed to "below you," but still. MDs need that schooling because they deal with people's lives every day, this is just video games. I can understand them having high standards, but asking for even an intern to have years of experience in the field is just ridiculous because it essentially means that you can not get into the field without having connections, being lucky, or having no life besides working towards that profession (like making your own independent games). I would be sooo bitter if I had to intern after I had a grad degree.

Yeah, you guys are totally screwed. That's an entirely different phenomena.

You know what would be great? If all these companies just fired these entitled jerks complaining about their entry-level jobs and hired you guys.

No?

Sounds like a plan!

Is there really a need for the sarcasm here? I just stated my opinion, which happened to be different from yours. I didn't make any kind of inflammatory remark towards you or your opinions or anything else. It's really just not necessary.

[Liadin]

TBH I probably should have said something more along the lines of "hate the idea of working as an intern" or "think it's ridiculous to work as an intern after you've completed a graduate degree" as opposed to "below you," but still. MDs need that schooling because they deal with people's lives every day, this is just video games. I can understand them having high standards, but asking for even an intern to have years of experience in the field is just ridiculous because it essentially means that you can not get into the field without having connections, being lucky, or having no life besides working towards that profession (like making your own independent games). I would be sooo bitter if I had to intern after I had a grad degree.

This is thinking about it from your perspective. From the companies', if they can find people who will take the internships who have those degrees, have connections, or make games in their free time, why should they take somebody without the schooling/experience/connections instead? So the job appeals to far more people than the industry can actually sustain; they have to make distinctions somehow. Besides, when you're first getting into the field, there's a learning curve. You can't expect full responsibility right away.

(The current trend toward making young people work unpaid internships rather than actual jobs, because they're so desperate for "experience," still sucks, though.)

[Liffguard]

Your complaints imply that someone should be trying to please you and why the suffering fuck should they? Only if you have established yourself at the top of your game and are a highly contested prize in the job market.

I sort of half agree with Shryke in that, whilst it's true that companies aren't going to be going out of their way to pander to their employees, employees shouldn't be going out of their way to pander to the company. So yeah, there's nothing wrong with working whatever job you can get and making the best you can of it. But there's nothing inherently noble or character-building about taking shit and professing loyalty to an organisation that would suck your body dry and sell the dessicated remains if they thought they could wring a few extra pennies of profit from it.

[cjfshaw]

This is thinking about it from your perspective. From the companies', if they can find people who will take the internships who have those degrees, have connections, or make games in their free time, why should they take somebody without the schooling/experience/connections instead? So the job appeals to far more people than the industry can actually sustain; they have to make distinctions somehow. Besides, when you're first getting into the field, there's a learning curve. You can't expect full responsibility right away.

(The current trend toward making young people work unpaid internships rather than actual jobs, because they're so desperate for "experience," still sucks, though.)

I honestly did not think about it from the company's perspective, like not at all. But this thread has just reinforced the belief that now matter how much my school blows, the co-op program is worth it, seeing as how I will have already co-oped for a total of 1.5 years by the time I graduate.

[The Wedge]

Question for recent undergrads and grads: Is anyone doing internships during summers between semesters? Back in the 90s this is when people got internships before graduating, oftentimes arranged by the college's business or science or engineering programs. Experience and networking was enhanced and in many cases led to permanent offers once school was complete. In some cases the summer internships were paid.

Making connections in the post-graduate world *before* getting the diploma is huge.

Maybe the environment out there has just changed too dramatically in 15 years? Dunno.

[jack-be-lucky]

Question for recent undergrads and grads: Is anyone doing internships during summers between semesters? Back in the 90s this is when people got internships before graduating, oftentimes arranged by the college's business or science or engineering programs. Experience and networking was enhanced and in many cases led to permanent offers once school was complete. In some cases the summer internships were paid.

Making connections in the post-graduate world *before* getting the diploma is huge.

Maybe the environment out there has just changed too dramatically in 15 years? Dunno.

Don't forget the demographics that are involved. People born in the baby-bust years of the seventies, who came out of school in the nineties had a huge number of opportunities available compared to graduates now who are members of the echo boom years of the late eighties.

Combined with the shrinking economy, if I were in my twenties now I would probably not be very confident that any effort on my part was going to result in success down the road.

[BLU-RAY]

Question for recent undergrads and grads: Is anyone doing internships during summers between semesters? Back in the 90s this is when people got internships before graduating, oftentimes arranged by the college's business or science or engineering programs. Experience and networking was enhanced and in many cases led to permanent offers once school was complete. In some cases the summer internships were paid.

Making connections in the post-graduate world *before* getting the diploma is huge.

Maybe the environment out there has just changed too dramatically in 15 years? Dunno.

Competition for internships, etc., was real competitive summers between my years of college. I did a fairly useless job that looks ok-ish on a resume after freshman year; stayed and took classes between soph and junior year; worked at a company that looks acceptable on the resume but is in a field that I ultimately decided wasn't for me after junior year, and stayed and did research after senior year before the Masters. That said, I was and am a lazy fuck (at least, I was OK at the actual job, but not so good about getting shit set up in advance); still, I know plenty of more diligent classmates who had to hustle for resume-padding nonsense during summers.

ETA: Competition was real competitive, nice. Somebody stop me.

[alguien]

Question for recent undergrads and grads: Is anyone doing internships during summers between semesters? Back in the 90s this is when people got internships before graduating, oftentimes arranged by the college's business or science or engineering programs. Experience and networking was enhanced and in many cases led to permanent offers once school was complete. In some cases the summer internships were paid.

Making connections in the post-graduate world *before* getting the diploma is huge.

Maybe the environment out there has just changed too dramatically in 15 years? Dunno.

QFT.

Internship is how I landed my job at the Great Books Foundation.

But even if you hate your internship, I think that's a great lesson, as you've just made the valuable discovery of what kind of career or job setting you WOULDN'T want to work in before, you know, actually apply and working there.

[Shryke]

Shryke, if MLK can't get through to you I have no illusions of possible success.

The MLK coment was so strange and random, I don't see how anything could be made of it. (I mean really, who is "being called" to be a streetsweeper. Did Jesus descend from on high and say "What? No sorry, not the rapture. Just hear to tell Jimmy over there his destiny is to sweep streets for the rest of his life.")

The point is that you are the one determining what is a "shit job". The job is not shit in the objective sense. You also have the power to find satisfaction, creativity and beauty in any job.

One of my favorite things to do is wrap cables. It gives me pleasure to take a cable which is twisted and unruly and turn it into a perfect coil. I don't expect that you can understand that.

And apparently everyone must to right? Because this is what you are saying. That everyone can and should be able "to find satisfaction, creativity and beauty in any job" and if they can't? Damn Entitled Kids, am I right? :lol:

Your complaints imply that someone should be trying to please you and why the suffering fuck should they? Only if you have established yourself at the top of your game and are a highly contested prize in the job market.

No, my complaints imply that I don't have to sit around pretending I enjoy shit I don't enjoy.

Again, it's insane to see people in here apparently disgusted at the very idea of someone complaining about certain kinds of work they have to do. Like, not only must people do work they don't want to, they must also enjoy it and to not do so, to even voice the idea, in an informal non-work setting, that they don't enjoy that work, is a travesty.

It's like one of those creepy-ass company loyalty seminars taken to heart and pushed to ridiculous extremes. No dissenting thoughts can be allowed! You love your job! Now cluck like a chicken.

I hestitate to even touch on the condescension implied toward the people who do 'shit jobs.' It's good enough for them but not you. That's the way to impress people with your worth.

Or maybe people like different things? Has it ever occurred to you that just because Joe the Road Construction Worker enjoys doing Road Construction, doesn't mean EVERYONE else does or must?

I will concede that you have an admirable self-defense mechanism going though. If you fail it's not your fault. It's the boss, the company, the whole stupid capitalist system. Well done.

I admire your ability to strawman the shit out of me because it's the only way you seem to be able to square the idea of someone not liking certain kinds of work. MADNESS I TELL YOU!!!

I mean, really, I've said nothing like what you are accusing me of above. Not even close.

[Aemon Stark]

TBH I probably should have said something more along the lines of "hate the idea of working as an intern" or "think it's ridiculous to work as an intern after you've completed a graduate degree" as opposed to "below you," but still. MDs need that schooling because they deal with people's lives every day, this is just video games. I can understand them having high standards, but asking for even an intern to have years of experience in the field is just ridiculous because it essentially means that you can not get into the field without having connections, being lucky, or having no life besides working towards that profession (like making your own independent games). I would be sooo bitter if I had to intern after I had a grad degree.

I still don't see what the problem is. And the reason that MDs must complete residencies has little to do with the "lives at stake" aspect and everything to do with how much there is to learn. I'll have had two full years of clinical experience prior to residency, and so far I don't think that Scrubs is altogether far off the mark about what it's like for new PGY1's.

[Blaine]

Eeh, I don't know about this, Blaine. Does 'romance' have to be the benchmark for 'adult relationship?'

A person can be a fully functioning adult, but still be a bit backward in the love department. I would tend to think that a sustained and meaningful relationship could mean something as platonic as co-signing on an apartment lease and getting along with a roommate. Or it could mean steadily being an active participant in a church/volunteer/etc organization.

Romantic relationship is an ideal notion, but it's not what I would think is the only way to measure relationship acumen.

I'd respectfully disagree. I think a person learns most about themselves in how much they open up to another person and how much they learn to compromise to make a real relationship work. Legally, it doesn't make you not an adult. But emotionally, if you can't develop and sustain a romantic relationship in 30 years, you're not going to view the reality of what romantic relationship is like an adult. You'll view it like a child.

It's good to have friends. Or roommates. But honestly, would you say that your friendships have taught you as much emotionally as any serious romantic relationship has? I wouldn't.

Sorry, I don't buy it. There are so many other ways to demonstrate the ability to meaningfully engage with other people and take responsibility for your own life, which is how I would define adulthood. The number of people I've known clinging to empty long-term relationships out of a fear of being on their own has convinced me that romance is a very poor benchmark on its own for measuring maturity.

I never said anything about clinging to an empty long-term relationship. So, that's a bit of a strawman.

Let me put it this way, would either of you accept romantic advice from someone who has never had a single sustained relationship that meant anything to them? No serious girlfriend/boyfriend/whatever? I wouldn't. And I tend to think of that as something other adults should be able to manage by age 30.

[litechick]

Shryke, I'm not going to beat my head against the wall. People are complaining about your attitude and you are stubbornly determined not to get it. The thread topic is "what's wrong with 20-somethings" and I think you are the poster child for the answer to that question.

[peterbound]

Every generation of workers thinks the new kids coming up are shit bags. I've fortunately had the benefit of having jobs that i can tell the newer guys to shut the fuck up and do their job with little or no repercussions.

Personally, i think everyone should do a tour of public service/military service for a minimum of two years, with the option to stay on. This teaches community awareness, self sacrifice, and discipline. Not to mention, it makes you grow up /really/ quickly.

[TrueMetis]

The point is that you are the one determining what is a "shit job". The job is not shit in the objective sense. You also have the power to find satisfaction, creativity and beauty in any job.

:laugh: Funniest thing I have ever heard in my life. Find me one person who has ever found satisfaction, creativity, or beauty at working in fast food. Because not only are you expected to work really hard for fuck all in pay you know that the food your giving to the customers is slowly killing them.

[peterbound]

Shryke, I'm not going to beat my head against the wall. People are complaining about your attitude and you are stubbornly determined not to get it. The thread topic is "what's wrong with 20-somethings" and I think you are the poster child for the answer to that question.

hmmm.. i wonder if we'd be saying the same thing Skryke is if everyone was attacking our generation/age range.

The only thing about Shrykes argument that bothers me is he sure likes to use the term 'strawman' a lot. Like in every conversation he gets in.

[peterbound]

:laugh: Funniest thing I have ever heard in my life. Find me one person who has ever found satisfaction, creativity, or beauty at working in fast food. Because not only are you expected to work really hard for fuck all in pay you know that the food your giving to the customers is slowly killing them.

What? Best job ever: Arby's 1995.

Having been to some shitty places in the world, and done some shitty things. I can tell you, it's not so much the job, as the attitude going in, and who you are surrounded by.

You can be cleaning shit for a living and as long as you are around some good people, you usually have a good time doing it.

[Aemon Stark]

I'd respectfully disagree. I think a person learns most about themselves in how much they open up to another person and how much they learn to compromise to make a real relationship work. Legally, it doesn't make you not an adult. But emotionally, if you can't develop and sustain a romantic relationship in 30 years, you're not going to view the reality of what romantic relationship is like an adult. You'll view it like a child.

It's good to have friends. Or roommates. But honestly, would you say that your friendships have taught you as much emotionally as any serious romantic relationship has? I wouldn't.

I agree with this. There are lots of reasons why this doesn't happen for some people, but it's been during romantic relationships - even where things didn't go anywhere - that I've learned most about myself, what I want, what I need, and, well, what other people are really like. That, and one of the best lessons for figuring out to make things work in the future is to understand even the failures. Life experience and such.

Let me put it this way, would either of you accept romantic advice from someone who has never had a single sustained relationship that meant anything to them? No serious girlfriend/boyfriend/whatever? I wouldn't. And I tend to think of that as something other adults should be able to manage by age 30.

I don't think that's really *that* abnormal, but no, I probably wouldn't seek out someone without such experience for advice.

[Lord of Oop North]

Unpaid internship is bullshit. It should logically be an abomination to any good capitalist worker. Work done should be rewarded with financial compensation. Period. Just because I'm a prole, doesn't mean that greedy corporations should be allowed to use me as a slave.

Internships are also a sign of typical rich white capitalist elitism. Who else but rich white folk can afford to do countless months of unpaid work? Us regular folk need to make money to eat, and live, and other such trivial things. Not to mention that almost every intern that I've ever known has enjoyed the receipt of rampant nepotism. If I come across a company that utilizes literal zerg hordes of interns, then I begin to wonder about the corruption level of the company, and the size of the bonuses that the executives are banking.

It's not a privilege to work as an unpaid intern. It's simply a sign that you don't have any personal bargaining power. You are expected to shut the fuck up and make coffee, so that you will receive the good reference, which is dangled in front of your face like a carrot on a stick. What a great deal. If that isn't exploitation, then I don't know what is.

[Blaine]

I don't think that's really *that* abnormal, but no, I probably wouldn't seek out someone without such experience for advice.

Yeah, I'm not saying it's abnormal, per se. Just that it's something that I would see as a significant milestone in becoming an adult.

Also, just so I'm not misunderstood: I see the milestone as having had a sustained romantic relationship. Not marriage, not even currenly "in a relationship" - just having had one at some point before you're 30.