What's wrong with 20-somethings?

[litechick]

I feel sorry for anyone who can't see that doing really good work is satisfying for its own sake.

My first restaurant job I begged them to let me work in the dish room. I wanted the challenge (it was considered the hardest job) and I wanted to defy the 'no girls in the dish room' policy.

I loved it. You didn't have to deal with customers, it didn't matter how dirty you got and if you could keep that place looking spotless that was a true accomplishment.

I mean, do you want to be the secretary who is the backbone of the whole operation or the one who chews bubblegum and files her nails?

[Arbor Gold]

I mean, do you want to be the secretary who is the backbone of the whole operation or the one who chews bubblegum and files her nails?

Do they get paid the same?

[Liffguard]

I never said anything about clinging to an empty long-term relationship. So, that's a bit of a strawman.

All I meant is that I've known people whose relationships were signs of immaturity rather than adulthood.

Let me put it this way, would either of you accept romantic advice from someone who has never had a single sustained relationship that meant anything to them? No serious girlfriend/boyfriend/whatever? I wouldn't. And I tend to think of that as something other adults should be able to manage by age 30.

Actually, hypothetically, yes I would. Not only from them of course. I'm sure I'd ask a few people. I've actually been the person asked for romantic advice a couple of times, apparently because I can give an outsider's view on things. There's been a couple of times when I've been asked for advice and I've just said "well why not just do X?" where X is something that hadn't previously been considered because it just wasn't the done thing within a relationship or whatever. I certainly don't claim to be some sage or that I even give decent advice, but it's not so strange to get advice from someone completely removed from your situation and thus not affected by the same biases.

[Shryke]

Shryke, I'm not going to beat my head against the wall. People are complaining about your attitude and you are stubbornly determined not to get it. The thread topic is "what's wrong with 20-somethings" and I think you are the poster child for the answer to that question.

I'm "stubbornly determined not to get it" because you've never even touched on your problems with what I've actually said and have instead spent your time beating on some ridiculous point I've never made.

Apparently what's wrong with 20-somethings is what you project on to them.

Kinda fits. :)

Oh, and your also making hilarious statements about how everyone should love every job they ever get. Funny shit.

[Shryke]

Unpaid internship is bullshit. It should logically be an abomination to any good capitalist worker. Work done should be rewarded with financial compensation. Period. Just because I'm a prole, doesn't mean that greedy corporations should be allowed to use me as a slave.

Internships are also a sign of typical rich white capitalist elitism. Who else but rich white folk can afford to do countless months of unpaid work? Us regular folk need to make money to eat, and live, and other such trivial things. Not to mention that almost every intern that I've ever known has enjoyed the receipt of rampant nepotism. If I come across a company that utilizes literal zerg hordes of interns, then I begin to wonder about the corruption level of the company, and the size of the bonuses that the executives are banking.

It's not a privilege to work as an unpaid intern. It's simply a sign that you don't have any personal bargaining power. You are expected to shut the fuck up and make coffee, so that you will receive the good reference, which is dangled in front of your face like a carrot on a stick. What a great deal. If that isn't exploitation, then I don't know what is.

It's like slave labour ... except you don't even have to feed or house them!

Hey, maybe that's why all them damn kids are moving back home. Unpaid internships don't pay the rent.

As for Nepotism? Well, it's only a bit worse on that front then real jobs.

[Tears of Lys]

I still don't see what the problem is. And the reason that MDs must complete residencies has little to do with the "lives at stake" aspect and everything to do with how much there is to learn. I'll have had two full years of clinical experience prior to residency, and so far I don't think that Scrubs is altogether far off the mark about what it's like for new PGY1's.

I did an unscientific poll once and asked around 5-6 doctors in various specialties what TV show was closest to reality, and to a man(woman) they said, "Scrubs."

[Blaine]

Actually, hypothetically, yes I would. Not only from them of course. I'm sure I'd ask a few people. I've actually been the person asked for romantic advice a couple of times, apparently because I can give an outsider's view on things. There's been a couple of times when I've been asked for advice and I've just said "well why not just do X?" where X is something that hadn't previously been considered because it just wasn't the done thing within a relationship or whatever. I certainly don't claim to be some sage or that I even give decent advice, but it's not so strange to get advice from someone completely removed from your situation and thus not affected by the same biases.

Fair enough. I can always see the value of a fresh perspective, but still - it's hard for me to accept someone who has never experienced a relationship as being informed enough to offer more than just an occasionally lucky random opinion. Sure you might lose biases, but you also lose all possible wisdom from actual experience.

Sort of like getting wisdom "from the mouths of babes" - it's nice when it happens that they can see things in a clear way that you can't. But still, I'd think that an informed, adult opinion would be far more likely to offer more useful experience-based advice or at least anecdotes.

[Altherion]

Unpaid internship is bullshit. It should logically be an abomination to any good capitalist worker. Work done should be rewarded with financial compensation.

Not necessarily. In the case of an intern, the reward is knowledge (at least theoretically -- if the interns just make coffee, then it doesn't really work). The problem internships solve is that in order for a worker to be useful, they need training and as our jobs become more complex, the amount of time to train the workers increases. Nobody is going to spend time on training you and pay you at the same time.

[The Wedge]

Oh, and your also making hilarious statements about how everyone should love every job they ever get.

People don't have to love every job they ever get. They should be willing to perform every job they do with enthusiasm and to the best of their ability, even if's a crap job.

We've all had crap jobs, but a good attitude goes a long way to both surviving and advancing out of a crap job.

Shryke, if I was your boss and got wind that you talked like this we'd have a little chat to find out why you were even there. There's nothing as bad as a workplace cancer who moans about things all the time instead of looking to make things better. Bad attitudes bring the whole place down a notch.

The employer doesn't owe anyone a job. Barring contractual obligations (whether individual or collectively bargained), why should the employer put up with an attitude like yours?

[Aemon Stark]

Not necessarily. In the case of an intern, the reward is knowledge (at least theoretically -- if the interns just make coffee, then it doesn't really work). The problem internships solve is that in order for a worker to be useful, they need training and as our jobs become more complex, the amount of time to train the workers increases. Nobody is going to spend time on training you and pay you at the same time.

If the internship is part of an educational program leading to a degree or certificate, then it might be reasonable that it's unpaid. Maybe. Co-op terms are, however, generally paid, and also confer "knowledge". If an unpaid internship is being used as some kind of substitute for an entry-level position or, you know, a paid internship, it is grossly unfair and unreasonable. Work of that sort is generally not it's own reward.

[peterbound]

People don't have to love every job they ever get. They should be willing to perform every job they do with enthusiasm and to the best of their ability, even if's a crap job.

We've all had crap jobs, but a good attitude goes a long way to both surviving and advancing out of a crap job.

Shryke, if I was your boss and got wind that you talked like this we'd have a little chat to find out why you were even there. There's nothing as bad as a workplace cancer who moans about things all the time instead of looking to make things better. Bad attitudes bring the whole place down a notch.

The employer doesn't owe anyone a job. Barring contractual obligations (whether individual or collectively bargained), why should the employer put up with an attitude like yours?

Come one now, we all bitch about work at one point in our lives. For all we know Skryke could be a picture perfect employee, but uses this venue for his venting.

[Guest Raidne]

So you DO understand exactly what I'm talking about.

Are you also one of us dreaded "entitled young whippersnappers" because you, in your own words, "didn't want to spend 6 months doing paralegal work"?

No, because I did do paralegal work for 6 months. And worked my ass off, did my best at it, and only gave lip service to the ways in which it was helping me build my skill set for the next level. I never complained about it at the office or acted anything less than totally grateful for the opportunity. And, after months of unemployment, I was.

I listened to really angry music every day on the way in and wanted to slap our team lead on a regular basis to the point where I started enough threads about it that people were calling me the new Frosty, sure.

But it's how you're acting at work and whether you'd take the job as a chance to prove yourself in the first place that matters.

I can't tell what your opinion is there - are you saying you'd still take the job, or that you'd pass it up and wait for something more appropriate to your ambitions? I think most people are interpreting you as meaning the latter.

[QuietColours]

Not necessarily. In the case of an intern, the reward is knowledge (at least theoretically -- if the interns just make coffee, then it doesn't really work). The problem internships solve is that in order for a worker to be useful, they need training and as our jobs become more complex, the amount of time to train the workers increases. Nobody is going to spend time on training you and pay you at the same time.

I'd like to see apprenticeships come back as one of the main ways of getting started in the real world, as opposed to years and years of education and unpaid internships. The way most people managed that I saw as I was going through school and grad school (I finished up two years ago), was that you went to college--financing it with some combination of loans, scholarships, and parents (if you're lucky) or out of your own pocket (if you're not); worked part time(usually on campus) to pay for extras; and people did internships during the summers. The internships were usually unpaid, and sometimes you had to pay for the privilege of the internship. Most people either had parents supporting them for this, or they worked full time outside of the internship to pay for themselves during the summer. If you had to work full time (or two full time jobs) over the summer to pay for your next year of school (while living at home and literally saving every penny), you couldn't do any internships. So you graduated with a nice degree, no experience, and a resume full of summer jobs that no one cares about. You're not hireable and you have a mountain of debt. Most people I know who got stuck in this position ended up living at home again, saving for grad school, working a minimum wage type job, applying for jobs in their field with very little success, and then taking out even more mountains of loans to eventually pay for grad school and even more loans to support themselves through internships in the summer. The amount of accumulated debt is staggering, they can't find work with the economy the way it is (because internships are not 15 years of experience), and it's a lot of people in real financial trouble. If you don't have someone helping you pay your way through the system--just basic living costs, nothing elaborate, it's very, very frustrating and expensive.

No one disagrees that experience in the field is vital and that it's very expensive to train new people. But trying to get that experience and all the required degrees for professional positions is more than a little overwhelming and so expensive it might not even be worth it with all the debt you have to take on if someone isn't helping you pay to get the experience and degrees.

[Cuellar]

I have to post this quote:

"Youth today love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority, no respect for older people, and talk nonsense when they should be working. Young people do not stand up any longer when adults enter the room. They contradict their parents, talk too much in company, guzzle their food, lay their legs on the table and tyrannize their elders."

Socrates

Old people have been bitching about young people since the beginning of time, and I hardly think this discussion is a whole lot different.

There are some unique things that are occuring that probably make it SLIGHTLY different:

- The 20-30 year olds have lived through 2 major recessions

- To be considered middle class, you pretty much are required to have a bachelors. Therefore, the age of getting your "First real job" has gone from 18 (no college) 50 years ago, to 23 (BA).

- The more educated you are, the less likely you are to marry early and shit out a ton of kids. With the current afluence, you probably tack on an average of 5 years to getting married and having kids.

- The previous generations have helped destroy the economy making it much harder to find a job. Basically the "old people" have wracked up $10 Trilliion in debt, are going to bankrupt social security, AND don't want to pay taxes. No wonder the economy is in the shitter and young people today are paying insane levels of taxes and are unable to purchase houses.

[alguien]

My first restaurant job I begged them to let me work in the dish room. I wanted the challenge (it was considered the hardest job) and I wanted to defy the 'no girls in the dish room' policy.

I loved it. You didn't have to deal with customers, it didn't matter how dirty you got and if you could keep that place looking spotless that was a true accomplishment.

OK... that's a bit odd to me.

I'd have requested to work on waitstaff, where I could interact with people and make a shitload more money. And you still have to work hard.

But that's just me.

Work ethic is nice and all, but this almost sounds like its approaching Animal Farm Boxer level. I think the reality is that its fine to recognize and dislike grunt labor as long as you know its a means to an end or you're getting well paid for your effort.

[fitheach]

What attitude? That I might dislike a shit job?

You've hired shitloads of people like me in your life, I guarantee it. Fuck, unless you've enjoyed every single job you've ever have, you've been me.

Seriously though, I'm kinda shocked at the vitriol that seems to be in some of these remarks. Who ever thought hating low level monkey work was so controversial?

I have been you. I've definitely had shit jobs, and I left the shit job instead of suffering through it. For me, I would've rather gotten paid crap and like what I was doing, than get paid well and hate it. If you dislike what your doing so much and feel like your not learning anything, your at the wrong company or went into the wrong industry. Simple as that.

As for internships, there are companies that take advantage of the intern. If a person is interning and not learning anything, or working a full work week and not getting even a lunch stipend- your being taken advantage of. Most internships are a few days a week, to give the person time for a paid job. When I interned I also worked as a bartender to pay the bills.

With assistant positions, yes the pay is crap. But again you should be learning a lot, if not then it's bogus.

[cjfshaw]

Everyone in the kitchen staff where I worked was fresh out of prison, a drug addict, illegal, or...me. The kitchen was generally more fun though, long as it wasn't in the middle of a rush.

[Guest Raidne]

I agree with Chats and lc. Granted I have never held the exalted position of waiter, but at the cafes I worked at, everyone fought for the backroom work that excused you from having to deal with the customers.

That is how unpleasant people can be - so unpleasant that I'd rather scrub out a stainless steel pot of clam chowder that's been on a cookplate for 8 hours. It's not even close.

[fitheach]

I agree with Chats and lc. Granted I have never held the exalted position of waiter, but at the cafes I worked at, everyone fought for the backroom work that excused you from having to deal with the customers.

That is how unpleasant people can be - so unpleasant that I'd rather scrub out a stainless steel pot of clam chowder that's been on a cookplate for 8 hours. It's not even close.

This is why I enjoyed bartending over waiting tables. As a bartender you could tell the person to piss off if you needed to, as a waiter you have to kiss ass. Sure, kissing ass is necessary sometimes- but never in a job you hate.

Again, if you hate a job- leave it. Even more so if your 20 something.

[Guest Raidne]

This is why I enjoyed bartending over waiting tables. As a bartender you could tell the person to piss off if you needed to, as a waiter you have to kiss ass. Sure, kissing ass is necessary sometimes- but never in a job you hate.

Ah, yes. When I was 18 I worked at a proto-Gen X coffee shop with, like, smoking and all music recorded my major labels was expressly forbidden. When people wanted to order something, they'd wait for me to finish smoking, order politely, and then tip me for the privilege.