What's wrong with 20-somethings?

[The Wedge]

Most businesses leave little room for either. In my experience, by the time you get to the low level jobs an room for innovation or initiative or whatever word you wanna use has been cleared away. Cogs have little room for innovation because the project goes far beyond just you and the individual pieces need to all fit in the end.

Like I said, those businesses do themselves a disservice.

Any business that only hires cogs and discourages those cogs to understand the end-to-end nature of what they are building/delivering/servicing is missing out on potential that's right under its nose. I work in such a 'cog' environment and trust me we are encouraged to do our work, but to also think forward and learn what we can so we don't get stuck being that 'cog' and then getting summarily dumped once that job is no longer part of the plan.

I've worked in a bunch of environments and never have felt afraid or discouraged to walk into a boss's office with a new idea. What's the worst that happens? They say no to it? Knowing more than just my own immediate assignment shows that I care enough about what's happening, as well as led to me feeling more appreciated by the business (validation is a good feeling). I've seen enough people sent out the door who just never cared or always complained because they saw faults in the process instead of opportunties.

There is ALWAYS room for innovation and creativity. When it's encouraged, then it can find an outlet. Good business models do this.

[Guest Raidne]

Maybe they don't want to work shit jobs? Maybe they want to do a job that isn't so simple a fucking trained monkey could sub in for them without anyone noticing? Especially after having spent most of their lives in an environment that encourages thought and study and such?

I don't understand where you are coming from here. Of course nobody wants to put in their time at the bottom of the ladder. I didn't want to do service connection hearing loss cases for three months while I learned the ropes of writing our decisions. And, before that, I especially did not want to spend 6 months doing paralegal work in order to get my foot in the door to be considered for my current job.

And I got out of that as soon as humanly possible. By working really hard, producing more than everyone else, and, yes, once wheedling my boss for that promotion when the time was right.

There were four people that came in and replaced the three of us who got promoted. They whined about the job every day, bothered the boss about it weekly, did not work very hard, and alienated a lot of people. One was not as bad, and got the promotion. One was fired. The other two have dead-ended and have been explicitly told that they are never leaving that job. Apparently they had a problem with the way two highly-placed senior attorneys failed to treat them like "real lawyers" and, so, were really rather rude to them. Not smart.

That's what people think of when they think of entitled behavior - that the job should magically appear for you because you think you're entitled to it.

Now, OTOH, if you're working at a company for two years without any chance to move up or improve your skill set, that's your own fault for not aggressively pursuing your own development and creating opporuntities for yourself.

[litechick]

Interesting. This is exactly what the "get off my lawn" people refer to as entitlement. Regardless of generation, nobody has ever wanted "to put up with this shit"; nobody wants to work a boring, grueling job for pitiful money. But here's the thing: just because somebody went to an expensive school for 4+ years doesn't mean that anyone is going to hand them the kind of job they want on a silver plate (that only works if mom and/or dad own the corporation). If they can't be bothered to put up with a lousy job, why would anyone give them the good ones rather than promote somebody from the bad job who at the very least has some experience in the field?

QFT. Well said.

Also QFT:

“If a man is called to be a street sweeper, he should sweep streets even as Michelangelo painted, or Beethoven composed music, or Shakespeare wrote poetry. He should sweep streets so well that all the hosts of heaven and earth will pause to say, here lived a great street sweeper who did his job well.”

Shryke, you are covered in snobbishness and entitlement and you can't see it at all. I find this fascinating and repulsive.

The existance of assholes is not a justification for being an asshole and the existance of short-sighted, poorly run companies is not an excuse for being a bad employee.

[DanteGabriel]

"Oh, you hate your job? There's a support group for that. It's called everybody else. Meetings are at the bar." -- Drew Carey

Not that I really believe that. I enjoy my job, find it engaging and creatively satisfying, and I work with good, trustworthy people. I also recognize that I'm fortunate.

[S John]

I've pretty much been employed since I was 15. I've done grocery stores, I've been the cart person, bagger, cashier. I've done F&B when I worked at Subway for a summer. I did retail working at Lowe's for a summer as well.

Probably my favorite job of the 15-22 era was the job where I worked as a lackey for the maintenance guy at a manufacturing plant. Something different every day, sometimes we would paint, sometimes landscaping, sometimes we would help in shipping for the day if a big order was coming in or going out, sometimes we'd help fix machinery, etc, etc. Probably a 'shit job' by most standards, but honestly I was pretty happy working there. I put in a lot of work in college and since then to do the kind of work that I do now, but if that were all taken away from me an I had to go work for the maintenance guy again... I really don't think I'd mind too much. It was a straightforward job and people would tell you if you were fucking up. In those terms. It lacked a lot of the things that I dislike about the corporate office environment. There's no politics, theres just you and your job.

As for now, I've been working in my field for about 5 years now and I have never had any complaints about my competence, but I still am occasionally blown away by how smart some of my bosses are. My current job is pretty stocked with young (30's) first line managers and I don't see much potential for moving into one of their jobs anytime soon. So maybe, in another year or two, I'll look for a job in a similar company and try to go up the chain a step when I do. But man, the idea of trying to step in right out of undergrad and do what my manager's do is laughable. I'm only just now getting a grip on it almost 5 years in, and many of my peers at work are older than me. I've always been of the mindset that, sure, I wouldn't mind being in charge of more responsibilities, but not until I'm sure that I know what I'm doing. I do not want to be one of those managers whose employees think... whose ass did he kiss to get that job?

[fitheach]

"I ate shit, so you must too!" :lol: Sounds like someones bitter.

Again, why are you surprised people think a shit job is shit? It just sounds like you are pissed one generation is apparently pointing out the obvious.

Try not to sound like an old useless fuck complaining about them damn kids on his lawn.

Sorry, not the old useless fuck, I'm the employer in this scenario... If your not learning anything in your lower rung position, maybe you work for the wrong company or your not as brillant as you think. But as someone who has a company that's been written up in the WSJ, Martha Stewart Magazine, Etsy online, etc..; I can honestly say I would never hire (and would definitely fire) someone with an attitude like yours. It's not about "this is the way it was for me and so it must be for you", instead you should think of it as continuing education in the real working world. As an apprentiship...I learned so much interning and assisting in one year, that at times I was annoyed at how little it turned out I thought I knew getting out of college. To me it was worth the low or no pay, and has helped me get to where I am.

So no I'm not bitter dear, I'm running the show.

[Aemon Stark]

Good job doesn't have to mean leadership. It doesn't even have to mean high up the ladder or anything.

I'd say alot of it is what you mention in your first sentence: no one wants to have a boring career. Or, I would personally add, no one wants to put up with a bunch of shit for their job either. What you mention under "lifestyle" at the end is just part of this. I don't see what's so shocking about people not wanting to be worked like a fucking dog doing shit work for pitiful money.

There's a sense, perhaps, that they just don't want to put up with this shit.

Well, generally we have to take the good with the bad. I start clerkship in two weeks. I will, quite literally, be the lowest rung on that particular ladder in medicine, and while I'll get a "stipend" ($2800 for 52 weeks of $300 in out-of-town expenses), I will be working 60 hour weeks at minimum and more on some services, albeit including (some) time for studying. Eventually I'll be a resident working similar hours for a reasonable salary and call stipend, though I'll only slowly attain more independent responsibility (to say nothing of creativity!). It's a long slow learning process, and if there's any point to the first two years of school, it's to strip away any arrogance and entitlement so you become acutely aware of how much there is to learn. I think the benefit is that this is all planned out for us and highly structured, which is extremely unusual at this point - what's certainly true is that a four-year degree doesn't really qualify you to do anything apart from get in the door; there's no substitute for on-the-job learning, which thankfully is how my learning will be structured from now on.

And, in medicine anyway, you will have to put up with shit (and fluids of various types and origins) in a more literal sense.

ETA: I meant to say that certain services (surgical especially) are notorious for being very hard on new residents/clerks for having it "too easy" since they had it "much harder". There are still some surgeons who will work 100 hours/week, but I don't know that anyone would consider that reasonable.

[Erik of Hazelfield]

Listen, regarding the job thing, I don't think it's that common that people expect to have a top job right after graduation. Neither do most of us complain if we have to do a few years of shit job within the company, prove our worth, and then move on to more rewarding tasks. That's fine.

But what's difficult if you're newly graduated is to find ANY job at all, let alone one that is even remotely related to what you've studied. I was in that situation for a while, and I tell you it's no fun. You can't get the jobs you're qualified for because the employers want experience, and you can't get the simple jobs either because the employers suspect (rightly) that you'll leave as soon as you get a better offer.

I don't feel I'm entitled to a job, but I do think it sucks studying for six years, have trouble finding a job after graduation, and then being scolded by people who seem to think the reason I don't work is because I feel entitled to a better job. I'll get off your lawn if you get off my back.

[cjfshaw]

Listen, regarding the job thing, I don't think it's that common that people expect to have a top job right after graduation. Neither do most of us complain if we have to do a few years of shit job within the company, prove our worth, and then move on to more rewarding tasks. That's fine.

But what's difficult if you're newly graduated is to find ANY job at all, let alone one that is even remotely related to what you've studied. I was in that situation for a while, and I tell you it's no fun. You can't get the jobs you're qualified for because the employers want experience, and you can't get the simple jobs either because the employers suspect (rightly) that you'll leave as soon as you get a better offer.

I don't feel I'm entitled to a job, but I do think it sucks studying for six years, have trouble finding a job after graduation, and then being scolded by people who seem to think the reason I don't work is because I feel entitled to a better job. I'll get off your lawn if you get off my back.

QFT.

I looked into applying for video game development. This is a link to the requirements for a game design INTERN.

http://www.riotgames.com/careers/game-design-intern-core-gameplay

Most of the other jobs in this field ask for 3 year experience minimum, 2 if you are lucky, among other typical requirements like having a college degree. I really don't think it's wrong to feel like interning AFTER college, and after having a graduate degree no less, is below you. Especially if you also have general work experience in the field.

[Aemon Stark]

QFT.

I looked into applying for video game development. This is a link to the requirements for a game design INTERN.

http://www.riotgames.com/careers/game-design-intern-core-gameplay

Most of the other jobs in this field ask for 3 year experience minimum, 2 if you are lucky, among other typical requirements like having a college degree. I really don't think it's wrong to feel like interning AFTER college, and after having a graduate degree no less, is below you. Especially if you also have general work experience in the field.

What's so unreasonable about this? First-year residency was previously known as an "internship", and the responsibilities at that level haven't changed much even so. And that's after an undergrad degree plus 3-4 years of med school. If MDs can suffer the apparent indignity of being interns or residents, I think game designers (or anyone else) can manage too. I mean... what do you expect?

[Guest Raidne]

Yeah, you guys are totally screwed. That's an entirely different phenomena.

You know what would be great? If all these companies just fired these entitled jerks complaining about their entry-level jobs and hired you guys.

No?

[Aemon Stark]

Sounds like a plan!

[Liadin]

Go back to what I originally stated. sustain a relationship for a significant period. That's it. I put no restrictions on that, no time limit, etc. I originally meant "date someone for a year", but honestly, what's the point in putting a time limit on it? Or saying whether it's romance?

Ultimately the experience is meant to learn how to successfully manage a relationship over time. I think for 99.9% of people that is going to be a romance. For a very small percentage (actual asexuals) the scale has to be different, I guess. But to KoolKat's point - no I don't think "just enjoying the single life" without a single sustained relationship before 30 is someone I'd consider to be a fully-formed adult. YMMV.

You seem to be saying out of one side of your mouth that it needs to be romance (unless you're asexual, possibly) and out the other side that the important thing is being able to sustain a relationship of some sort over time. I just can't imagine how any human being could possibly have failed to do the latter by age 18, let alone 30--everybody has caregivers as a child, there's friends and family and so on. Many of those relationships last a lifetime. Somebody who doesn't have sustained, positive relationships with anyone as a child and adolescent is going to wind up way too fucked up for a successful romantic relationship as an adult anyway. So this isn't really a meaningful measure of adulthood unless you're talking about romance specifically, which is what Liffguard objected to.

[GSP]

"It is kinda funny that way. Though personally, I can't really blame them, since they are kinda right."

That was my point though Shryke. They were defintaly not right with me. I'd given up on the idea of building a fucking empire or ever being satisfied with a career. I just wanted and needed a schmuck job to pay the bills and that's all I was after at the time. I was ready to punch in and punch out in and go home without having nightmares of my client going to jail, or loosing his/her child or house, or what have you. I'm a fuckin workhorse when employed and would have been as good an asset to any of these positions as anybody regardless of education.

At the end of the day, things ended up way, way better than they would have had I gotten one of the many other jobs I'd applied for, but it would have been nice to have been considered beyond the resume just once.

[Shryke]

Like I said, those businesses do themselves a disservice.

Any business that only hires cogs and discourages those cogs to understand the end-to-end nature of what they are building/delivering/servicing is missing out on potential that's right under its nose.

But that's completely different from what I mentioned. "Understand" =/= "Effect". Just because you are told the big picture doesn't mean you get to do anything other then what you are assigned.

To use an example from stuff I've done, if you're one of 50 developers working on a large program, there's very little room for innovation or creativity. Because the little piece you are working on has to fit in with the other 49 pieces.

I don't understand where you are coming from here. Of course nobody wants to put in their time at the bottom of the ladder. I didn't want to do service connection hearing loss cases for three months while I learned the ropes of writing our decisions. And, before that, I especially did not want to spend 6 months doing paralegal work in order to get my foot in the door to be considered for my current job.

So you DO understand exactly what I'm talking about.

Are you also one of us dreaded "entitled young whippersnappers" because you, in your own words, "didn't want to spend 6 months doing paralegal work"?

That's what people think of when they think of entitled behavior - that the job should magically appear for you because you think you're entitled to it.

Actually, apparently what people think of as entitled behavior is just complaining about the same shit you complained about above.

[Shryke]

Shryke, you are covered in snobbishness and entitlement and you can't see it at all. I find this fascinating and repulsive.

:rofl:

Holy shit, are you fucking serious?

How dare I suggest that I don't enjoy working crap jobs. What a terrible person I am!

Are you fucking listening to yourself? I swear, it sounds like you've swallowed some sort of crazy corporatist kool-aid. Like the very idea that someone might complain about their job offends you. Holy fuck.

Sorry, not the old useless fuck, I'm the employer in this scenario... If you think your not learning anything in your lower rung position, maybe you work for the wrong company or your not as brillant as you think. But as someone who has a company thats been written up in the WSJ, Martha Stewart Magazine, Etsy online, etc..; I can honestly say I would never hire (and would definitely fire) someone with an attitude like yours. Its not about 'this is the way it was for me and so it must be for you', you should think of it as continuing education in the real working world. As an apprentiship...I learned sohttp://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?app=forums&module=post&section=post&do=reply_post&f=10&t=45139&qpid=2217144 much interning and assisting in one year, that at times I was annoyed at how little it turned out I thought I knew getting out of college. To me it was worth the low or no pay, and has helped me get to where I am.

So no I'm not bitter dear, I'm running the show.

What attitude? That I might dislike a shit job?

You've hired shitloads of people like me in your life, I guarantee it. Fuck, unless you've enjoyed every single job you've ever have, you've been me.

Seriously though, I'm kinda shocked at the vitriol that seems to be in some of these remarks. Who ever thought hating low level monkey work was so controversial?

[Blaine]

You seem to be saying out of one side of your mouth that it needs to be romance (unless you're asexual, possibly) and out the other side that the important thing is being able to sustain a relationship of some sort over time.

Well, I was making an exception for what sounds like an asexual. I'd do the same for a nun or a priest. For them, I'd consider a lifelong friendship as good as their limitations will allow them.

I just can't imagine how any human being could possibly have failed to do the latter by age 18, let alone 30--everybody has caregivers as a child, there's friends and family and so on. Many of those relationships last a lifetime. Somebody who doesn't have sustained, positive relationships with anyone as a child and adolescent is going to wind up way too fucked up for a successful romantic relationship as an adult anyway. So this isn't really a meaningful measure of adulthood unless you're talking about romance specifically, which is what Liffguard objected to.

And like I said, 99.9% of the population, the measure is a romantic relationship. As with anything relating to adulthood, your parents/caregivers loving you unconditionally doesn't really count, does it?

But yes, IMO, unless you are asexual or have a belief system that exempts you, that is a viable measure to judge adult status. Or rather, not having achieved a sustain romantic relationship by the age of 30 makes me doubt whether you're an adult.

[The Wedge]

But yes, IMO, unless you are asexual or have a belief system that exempts you, that is a viable measure to judge adult status. Or rather, not having achieved a sustain romantic relationship by the age of 30 makes me doubt whether you're an adult.

Eeh, I don't know about this, Blaine. Does 'romance' have to be the benchmark for 'adult relationship?'

A person can be a fully functioning adult, but still be a bit backward in the love department. I would tend to think that a sustained and meaningful relationship could mean something as platonic as co-signing on an apartment lease and getting along with a roommate. Or it could mean steadily being an active participant in a church/volunteer/etc organization.

Romantic relationship is an ideal notion, but it's not what I would think is the only way to measure relationship acumen.

[Starkess]

There's quite a difference between complaining about a terrible shit job and not thinking you should have to do a terrible shit job. There's also quite a difference between complaining to other and complaining at work.

[Liffguard]

But yes, IMO, unless you are asexual or have a belief system that exempts you, that is a viable measure to judge adult status. Or rather, not having achieved a sustain romantic relationship by the age of 30 makes me doubt whether you're an adult.

Sorry, I don't buy it. There are so many other ways to demonstrate the ability to meaningfully engage with other people and take responsibility for your own life, which is how I would define adulthood. The number of people I've known clinging to empty long-term relationships out of a fear of being on their own has convinced me that romance is a very poor benchmark on its own for measuring maturity.