Most Craptastic novels

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I urironically love the Belgariad, for what it is (formula fantasy for 12 year olds) it's fantastic.

That probably explains it, because I was probably 20 when I read it. After having devoured Tolkien, Donaldson, Herbert, Asimov, Moorcock, and a bunch of other stuff. The fact that you recognize it's ass-suckiness now, though, speaks well for you.

[Mad Monkey]

So obviously, I have "issues" with Anna Karenina. :devil:

Former Lord --

Yeah, that really, really sucks but I don't see how it was the book's fault though. It's not as if Tolstoy could have planned for that scenario back when he was writing it.

And even if it was his fault, it's still not as bad as anything by Stanek.

[peterbound]

To be fair, a lot of authors don't read other fantasy for fear of being sued.

Indeed. This came up during the panel as well. For fear of being 'influenced' by what they are reading. Connie Willis stated that she reads absolute /nothing/ when she is writing something (other than reference material).

That wasn't the vibe I got from old Kevin J. More to the affect that he just doesn't rate anyone else's shit that high. The guy just came off dickish and very self important. The mother-fucker cut off Mrs. Willis (Sci-Fi Bad Ass) once for FSM sake!

[Datepalm]

 I actually like(d) the Malloreon more than the Belgariad. I think there was, like, a bit of moral ambiguity in there someplace. 

[Galactus]

That probably explains it, because I was probably 20 when I read it. After having devoured Tolkien, Donaldson, Herbert, Asimov, Moorcock, and a bunch of other stuff. The fact that you recognize it's ass-suckiness now, though, speaks well for you.

No, that's the point It doesen't suck. I'm just no longer a part of the target demographic. It's still fiendishly good at what it is. And it deserves respect for that. (And I had actually read Tolkien before, although I liked the Hobbit and the Silmarillion more than LOTR at that point)

EDIT: Just because I loathe say... baseball, doesen't mean I can't acknowledge a good baseball player.

[sologdin]

And before solog gets all over me, I love Dostoevsky.

why would i pick on you for disliking tolstoy? I haven't read enough of his to get worked up about him, to be honest.

is that a new avatar, incidentally? unless that neoclassical guy is as dr. evil as mr. hunting accident, i don't know if i'll be able to gun for you any more.

[Grack21]

Not that I disagree with your conclusion, but really, 10 pages? I've given up on books based on their openings as well, but I don't feel like I'm in a position to cast judgment on the work as a whole after doing so.

I think a lot of this really depends on what age you are when you're exposed to the material in question. For example, I actually greatly enjoyed Shadow Moon and its sequels, but I was also 12 when I read them and they were amongst the first few novels I read of my own free will.

Same with Terry Brooks. I know there's a lot of people out there who think he's a horrendous author, but every time I hear someone dis his Shannara series, it's like they're trampling on a little part of my childhood.

I think the biggest problem with fantasy as a genre is that it's marketed to adults when there are ridiculously few 'adult' fantasy novels out there.

Well, I'm probably exaggerating a bit, but I was already disinclined to hate it after that one panel he was on where he talked about how no one has original ideas and writes big pointless books. The I read his giant fantasy series that starts out with a farm boy living on a magical fucking island. The writing to was just awful, maybe not Stanek awful, but easily Goodkind awful.

I have the same gut reaction when people start the Brooks bashing, probably because I met him when I was 13, and he was a really nice guy.

[Trencher]

I actually like(d) the Malloreon more than the Belgariad. I think there was, like, a bit of moral ambiguity in there someplace.

The Belgariad was the first fantasy I read as a teenager and loved it. Same with Mallorean. Now if I were to read them now I might think differently. They were my gateways however so I will always have fond memories. I did like the first Shannara books, but tried reading that 2nd Shannara series and thought they were pretty bad. Brooks also had a short story in one of the Legends novels that contained one of the Martin short stories. I read it and realized I have moved on.

[peterbound]

 I actually like(d) the Malloreon more than the Belgariad. I think there was, like, a bit of moral ambiguity in there someplace. 

These tales were the inspiration for Daniel Abraham's new fantasy novels. He said he wanted to write a book that made him feel as an adult how the Belgariad made him feel as a kid.

I don't think they are craptastic, just immature.

[The faceless others]

Books are written with an age group in mind, so I do agree that if I read the Shannara maybe this time, I wouldn't have the urge to finish it because books are like clothes, we grow out of them. Another thing, when we read books, we judge them against the best book we've ever read this may be unconcious.

[Galactus]

The Belgariad was the first fantasy I read as a teenager and loved it. Same with Mallorean. Now if I were to read them now I might think differently. They were my gateways however so I will always have fond memories. I did like the first Shannara books, but tried reading that 2nd Shannara series and thought they were pretty bad. Brooks also had a short story in one of the Legends novels that contained one of the Martin short stories. I read it and realized I have moved on.

I actually had a period where I hated the Belgariad and thought it childish, but I re-read it some time ago and thought it was really well-put together.

I mean, I can still rip it to sheds criticaly, but it just *works* Eddings knows his Heros journey.

[Dr Spoon]

There was a guy on the train opposite me yesterday reading The Virtue of Selfishness by Ayn Rand. I should have slapped him for my own selfish amusement, virtuously. Although would that have been an act of altruism to distract him from his book, thus making me a Communist?

I don't know about real obscure badness but Starship Troopers struck me as vastly overrated. It's a war story stuck in bootcamp, FFS. There's about 3 pages of fighting the aliens and 150 of crackpot authorial lectures directed at the reader, devoted to knocking down feeble, strawman arguments. Weak action, weak characters, weak philosophy.

[Datepalm]

 

I don't know about real obscure badness but Starship Troopers struck me as vastly overrated. It's a war story stuck in bootcamp, FFS. There's about 3 pages of fighting the aliens and 150 of crackpot authorial lectures directed at the reader, devoted to knocking down feeble, strawman arguments. Weak action, weak characters, weak philosophy.

I loved Heinleins kids books, but I don't think i've ever finished a single one of his adult books (ST might be the exception, only becuase its fairly short.) Stranger in a Strange Land and To Sail Beyond the Sunset are pretty terrible. No plots, endless gratuitous squicky sex and political lectures, the Scott Bakker school of didactic characterization, etc. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

peterbound,

These tales were the inspiration for Daniel Abraham's new fantasy novels. He said he wanted to write a book that made him feel as an adult how the Belgariad made him feel as a kid.

I don't think they are craptastic, just immature.

Interesting. I enjoyed the Belgariad when I was a kid and read it several times. That said I recognize the story as rather unsubtle with merely adequate prose. The manner in which he broke humans in his world down by race was rather, poorly though out. Drasians are spies, Chereks are Viking/bezerkers/sailors, Arends are foolishly emotional, Tolnedrans are greedy, etc... No group of people fits that well into such a simplified generalization. People are people and will defy generalization at every turn.

Having read the prologue to The Dragon's Path I'm now more interested to get that book into my grubby little hands. Abraham in the prologue states that he's dividing his world into thirteen human races. Given my respect for the man as a writer I'm very interested to see how he utilizes that break down.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Dr Spoon,

There was a guy on the train opposite me yesterday reading The Virtue of Selfishness by Ayn Rand. I should have slapped him for my own selfish amusement, virtuously. Although would that have been an act of altruism to distract him from his book, thus making me a Communist?

Isn't that the same as approaching a protesting pacifist, punching them in the nose, then, when they get angry and try to respond telling them that violence is never a solution to life's problems, and then (if they agree) hitting them in the nose again and repeating the procedure until the pacifist agrees sometimes violent self defense is necessary?

Datepalm,

I loved Heinleins kids books, but I don't think i've ever finished a single one of his adult books (ST might be the exception, only becuase its fairly short.) Stranger in a Strange Land and To Sail Beyond the Sunset are pretty terrible. No plots, endless gratuitous squicky sex and political lectures, the Scott Bakker school of didactic characterization, etc.

Or Orson Scott Card since his change to uber-Mormon and his continual desire to show the world the error of its way in not also being "uber-Mormon".

[The faceless others]

]

Dr Spoon,

Isn't that the same as approaching a protesting pacifist, punching them in the nose, then, when they get angry and try to respond telling them that violence is never a solution to life's problems, and then (if they agree) hitting them in the nose again and repeating the procedure until the pacifist agrees sometimes violent self defense is necessary?

Datepalm,

Or Orson Scott Card since his change to uber-Mormon and his continual desire to show the world the error of its way in not also being "uber-Mormon".

ROFLMAO

[MinDonner]

Isn't that the same as approaching a protesting pacifist, punching them in the nose, then, when they get angry and try to respond telling them that violence is never a solution to life's problems, and then (if they agree) hitting them in the nose again and repeating the procedure until the pacifist agrees sometimes violent self defense is necessary?

Um, no. Because in that example, you are not personally demonstrating the value that you are trying to disprove. Maybe you could punch yourself in the face until the pacifist tries to stop you? Or let someone else beat you up?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Min,

Um, no. Because in that example, you are not personally demonstrating the value that you are trying to disprove. Maybe you could punch yourself in the face until the pacifist tries to stop you? Or let someone else beat you up?

Fair point. Dr. Spoon's example simply sounded a lot like the example that I posted and had heard years ago.

[ZombieWife]

Before anyone else gets there:

Anything by Robert Stanek and Terry Goodkind ;)

Also Twelve by Jasper Kent. Twilight was marginally more entertaining.

And The Windup Girl bored me to tears, although it won a Hugo or something.

Oh my goodness. Thank you for typing this. Two friends of mine gave me the first Goodkind book in that Wizard series to read and went on and on about it. I got about 2 chapters in and I thought they were bloody well smoking crack. It was right up there with Twilight in juvenile writing style. I swore I thought it was a badly written YA novel, then my friends mentioned all the sex. If I wanted to read kinky stuff, I would read some trashy bodice-ripper (which would be better written). Sorry to go off on a tirade. I know people who love the story. I just couldn't bring myself to stomach it. Furthermore, I am so glad to meet at least one person who thinks it's rubbish. Thank you. I can come out of the closet now. :)

[MinDonner]

:lol: Zombiewife, are you serious? Cos we have (to date) at least 47 threads dedicated to the awfulness of Mr Goodkind... give the search function a go, you will be pleasantly surprised!