Judging Eye IX (spoilers)

[Madness]

K, I found it. Funny but unJon, you actually took part in this discussion then too. Gotta love the speculation when Bakker was actually apart of it.

Inrau's sorcery

Cu'jara Cinmoi » Wed Mar 15, 2006 9:55 am

This question really morphed!

Yes, Inrau IS damned. And this is the basis of his conversion. There's always hope that the scriptures just overlooked some kind of loophole, or that by praying real hard...

Part of the problem is that we see Inrau primarily through Achamian, and if you think about it, Achamian tends not to go into the details of his damnation - or that of any of those he loves. For instance, why doesn't he ever wonder about Inrau's soul? This omission becomes more and more explicit the more implicated Achamian becomes in Kellhus's world. Think of TTT. I wanted this to be the one thing he cannot grasp without the protection of vague intellectual abstraction.

unJon » Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:28 am

Scott's answer to the paradox sheds a lot of light on the Inrithi faith. I didn't consider that they'd let a Marked schoolman "take the vows."

Lol, I always urge people to check out the author Q&A, if you're a Bakker junkie, for sure. So much good info.

[unJon]

Haha, I had totally forgetten about this. Thanks, Madness! Ok so Inrau is Marked. Hmmm. So Nerdenal's explanation about it being nearly invisible could be right. Still want to do a re-read of the Inrau bits to make sure it all fits and isn't a retrofit.

[Tears of Lys]

/snip

Avatars of the gods actually walking the earth. Not a bloody hint of any of this, or even the prevalence of the actual Cults, like the cult of Yatwer, in the first trilogy. It is just jarring.

The cults are mentioned, but more in passing. As for the avatars of the gods actually walking the earth, I always assumed that since Kellhus started messin' around in their stuff, activities on Earwa have gotten their attention. Yatwer, for one, is taking a more direct hand in things. Maybe we'll see Ajokli and some of the others - which would be fun!

[Madness]

There a couple Nonmen that we might name as you do Sin'niroiha, Triskele. I'm not sure we even know who Cleric is. He might have a convincing back story that would forgive him being unmentioned before. Obviously, we've figured that all the Nonmen know who still live among their species so if we don't know him, it's assumed that others entities in Earwa do.

As for Kellhus' goals and Tears of Lys' comment:

I think most of us will be surprised if Kellhus doesn't betray the Great Ordeal. I'm even wondering if he does it in the next book, highlighting what Pat wrote in his review about his kids taking a greater focus in The Unholy Consult. Ultimately, I believe Kellhus is still Dunyain and likely the most likely candidate among the Dunyain to achieve self-moving soul. As I've written, I think the Dunyain have isolated themselves in incomplete parameters of the objective metaphysics of Earwa. Kellhus on the other hand is in the Experiment of Life itself.

Where does this lead us? To the comment within this thread and my assertion that Kellhus wants to dominate reality to dominate himself and become a God or the equivalent. However, Sorcery, Belief, Tekne, and War(?) are seemingly the only metaphysical fundaments in Earwa; as Dunyain, Kellhus will want complete knowledge of these things.

The cults are mentioned, but more in passing. As for the avatars of the gods actually walking the earth, I always assumed that since Kellhus started messin' around in their stuff, activities on Earwa have gotten their attention. Yatwer, for one, is taking a more direct hand in things. Maybe we'll see Ajokli and some of the others - which would be fun!

While it might be exciting to see this reformed metaphysics play out, the cults being mentioned is not enough evidence for TJE's Reality of Gods existing outright. As I wrote, PON seemed to be referring to Belief as I mean it above and like it is in our own world. Something that we humans manifest and embody as a social organism through social and cultural conceptual structures. If I were raised in a tribe in Maui, their beliefs would be my Manifest Reality. Same with the Western Empire's worldview. Excepting chemists, mathematicians, physicists, and, possibly, neuroscientists, all of our cultural perspectives are reducible to equally dubious neurological structures and selves. Thus, in Earwa, like here, there are infinite neurological configurations, embodying whatever random ass belief system imaginable.

Then all of sudden, Gods.

However, I really do think Bakker is responsible for a new fictive mechanism, that of concrete Layers of Revelation. We can best anticipate his plot in this:

TDTCB: The Consult actually exist, instead of being just another perspective.

TWP: Kellhus' Prophet status, whether sham or Truth.

TTT: The Thousandfold Thought will rewrite the social organization of Earwa and the Outside Exists - Ciphrang & Iyokus.

TJE: The Gods exists and the Judging Eye can see manifest damnation.

TWLW: ?

I know I've posted a version of this before but I think we can expect another reveal like this at the end of WLW, which in some way expands and deepens our metaphysical awareness of Earwa.

[Curethan]

Hopefully we get a clearer idea of what the gods actually are. I got some few ideas so far.

Powerful individual outside entities pursuing specific agendas.

Immanent manifestations of gestalt desires engendered by belief.

Ancient anthromorphised pseudo-sentient viramsata warring against each other for dominance within the social organization of the ensouled.

[Madness]

Lol, at your ETA, Triskele.

All good guesses, Curethan. All I have to add is that somewhere in the Three Seas Q&A I read today Bakker said something about the Ciphrang existing completely of and in the Outside. Never had the Agency (Agencies are apparently what the Nonmen call the Inrithi/Fanim Gods and Demons) that Iyokus summoned existed in Earwa.

So this kind of discludes people ascending a la Erikson.

[Rhadamanth]

I decided to reread some of the Three Seas forum as well. So far the best bit is when someone says they didn't like the ending of TTT and Bakker replies that if the ending pissed you off wait for the ending ending. All hail the Todd's.

ETA: This part is good as well.

"Regarding the mark, the idea is that passion is not cognitive, which is to say, neither true nor false OF anything, unlike statements or images. This is why recalling the 'Passion of the God' is never incomplete, whereas recalling the 'Thought of the God' must be false somehow, and so marked.

That's the rationale, anyway."

[Rhadamanth]

This one is very interesting.

"Regarding the Third Sight (which refers to the way Cishaurim see without seeing), the idea is that Psukari can actually see souls - those things invisible to the naked eye. Souls 'shine' to the degree they reflect the 'proportion of the God.' So the implication is that the Dunyain somehow reflect the proper proportion.."

So maybe all that blather the Mandati told Sorweel is actually kinda true.

[Madness]

I read the PON twice thinking it was a stand alone trilogy, Triskele. I loved that an author might have the audacity to end a series so... unresolved :D.

[Curethan]

I fucking love the ending of TTT so much. I didn't like it at first because it felt so...unresolved. But you get over that quickly when you come to grips with the fact that it is not an end and really just a beginning.

Plotwise, this is true. My first reaction was similar, but there is much thematic completion and symetry to savour. I think that satisfaction only settles in after being digested. Cnaiur and Conphas have completed arcs and Akka and Kellhus take kinda opposite character journeys, for example.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

This one is very interesting.

"Regarding the Third Sight (which refers to the way Cishaurim see without seeing), the idea is that Psukari can actually see souls - those things invisible to the naked eye. Souls 'shine' to the degree they reflect the 'proportion of the God.' So the implication is that the Dunyain somehow reflect the proper proportion.."

So maybe all that blather the Mandati told Sorweel is actually kinda true.

I guess that puts Nerdanel's theory that the Third Sight = TJE to bed.

I don't know why people are saying we don't see gods in PON - we clearly see Onkis in the scene where Inrau dies. Yes, it's debatable, but given the revelations of TJE and the apparently manifest reality of the gods, then it seems quite clear.

However, I will agree that there seems to be a pretty big difference between Yatwer's strength in TJE and what we see in PoN. However, given that our primary POVs in PoN are Kellhus, who doesn't care about the gods, Akka, who dislikes them, Cnaiur, who holds them in contempt, and Esmi, who is jaded because she sees herself as damned... well, it's not too surprising that they're not all religious.

The only surprise there is Serwe, who by all rights should be more religious. Then again, she sees Kellhus as pretty much the only god, so maybe not.

[aimlessgun]

I just skimmed Inrau's death scene and I can't find any part that indicates Onkis was around. Maybe I missed it?

[Curethan]

I think it's where he's praying to Onkis and his ancestors for some sign. He hears 'run' in his thoughts before he is aware the consult have discovered him.

[Finn]

So it has seemed that Nin'janjin (sp) was the most popular theory out there for the identity of Cleric. Can someone remind me of the thinking behind this? Re-reading the appendix it is not making a lot of sense.

I'll throw out a name: Sin'niroiha how was basically the remaining leader of the nonmen after some of their greater names were killed at the end of the last battle with the inchies.

So that's two votes for Sin -

I agree about Mek, but I also don't like Nin-janjin for similar reasons. It's just a little too Forrest Gump for my tastes.

My vote is for Sin'niroiha, the "king of two mansions" last seen (as far as I know) leading the retreat from the battle in which Cujara-Cinmoi is killed. (Does this battle have a name?) I like to think of him wandering the earth like Caine from Kung-fu after the end of the battle.

Get out and vote; vote early and often for Sin.

[lokisnow]

Twice now I’ve lost this post. Dammit.

Does anyone have a list of the gods we know the names of and what they do?

I reread the TDTCB prologue and the Inrau POV section and had some thoughts.

Kellhus has an interesting bit that anticipates his horizon to horizon magic:

How many ravine-creased horizons must he exchange before he arrived at Shimeh?

And interesting that he notes ravines there, because in the same paragraph he explains the route out of Ishual, and there is no ravine that approaches it. It seems to be surrounded all about by glaciers. It may be in a valley, but there is no valley or ravine leading to or from Ishual. Ishaul sits nestled against a mountainside, it rises above the trees, but is dwarfed by the mountain. To get away from Ishual, Kellhus must climb through the forest until he’s above the snowline, then he continues to climb until he reaches glacial slopes and it takes him two days to climb the glaciers and crest the mountain leaving Ishual valley. There are pines and presumably Oak around Ishual (Kellhus has acorns and wafers for consumables) but the forests on the other side, what Kellhus refers to as the wilderness, are Redwoods. Kellhus doesn’t descend glaciers though, he descends granite escarpments. Which is also interesting. Ishual is very well hidden. The first odd thing Kellhus notices about the forest is that he hears thunder. Thunder associated with any gods we know?

The dunyain are perhaps vegetarian as Kellhus doesn’t have meat consumables, doesn’t eat the salmon or dog he comes across. They also seem to shave their heads as Kellhus is surprised at the hair growing both on his scalp and on his face.

Kellhus doesn’t see Mek’s face, as far as I can tell, he’s helmed. Kellhus perceives he is a nonman based on logical deduction, not appearance.

Is the nonman ruins kellhus meets mek in Siol? Is the giant tree Kellhus is fascinated by the tree symbol shared by Onkis (as indicated in the Onkis appendix entry)?

Inrau’s POV section is a few months after the meeting with Esme and Akka. The POV section of that meeting comes directly before Inrau’s only POV and the first is dated Early Spring and Inrau’s is dated Late Spring. So he is not just upset because Akka and Esme have shaken his faith in Maitha. No it’s fairly clear he’s found out something he wished he did not know.

At the end of the paragraph of his worship and description of the Onkis statue is the following sentence:

She came before him.

Onkis, it seems tells him to Run. He asks if the synthese is her but is told, “No.” Then, immediately after Inrau’s uncertainty is snuffed out (is this indicative he’s about to become an avatar of Onkis?) he has the thought, in the same form of Onkis’ answers as well as his own inner thoughts, “It’s you!” which could either be Inrau thinking Onkis is the fluttering synthese he’s hearing or could be Onkis welcoming Inrau in, or Inrau welcoming Onkis in, or could be Onkis in Inrau recognizing Aurang.

Almost immediately, before even encountering the Consult, Inrau notices this in a bit of interesting foreshadowing:

The trunks of the columns gradually grew brighter as they fell out of sight. The light from below was distant and diffuse, as soft as the worn edges of the stonework.

Note that both the distant ground, due to the light, is described as soft. But also the stonework is associated with the word soft, in about two page, Inrau will run through the stonework railing as though it were like cake--soft. And he’ll follow a piller to the soft light below him, thinking of how he is floating and bathing in the light. The railing makes him dizzy, so he keeps his back to the wall but that stone wall is described with terms like brittle, gloom, barnacled, encrusted.

And he perceives his plunge as floating, not falling, which is interesting.

It takes a while for Inrau to see the mark of sorcery on the synthese, by the way, he misses it at first. Akka almost never describes a mark (akka doesn’t like to think about damnation, remember) Mimara however seems to see the mark much more differently and quickly than others.

Inrau focuses hard on remembering words of power in this scene, words of prayer are like tissue. He definitely is summoning things he learned in the Mandate to mind when goes on the attack and on the defense.

Aurang uses analogies/anagogic against Inrau, Lights like a thousand hooks. The weight of an ocean crushed him with an embalming fist.

You worship suffering. Why do you think

Is that phrase from Aurang, in response to Inrau’s question about why he is to be subjected to the Agonies, directed towards Inrau, the Mandate or the Human race? Is it toward Inrau for worshipping gods, some of whom, like Yatwer, demand worship of suffering? Is it toward the mandate, and their worship of the suffering of the first apocalypse with their nightly Seswatha dreams? Or is directed towards the human race in general, that humand only worship and exalt suffering as worthy of praise, that pleasure and ease are damned and scorned?

[Curethan]

Sin seems reasonable to me. 3 votes.

eta. interesting stuff, lockesnow.

All I can add about Onkiss is her symbol, the copper tree, is also the symbol of Cujara Cinmoi's mansion - no idea what that signifies, if anything.

Off the top of my head, we know of Gilgoal (war), Onkis (nature), Gierra (love), Husyelt (the hunt) and Yatwer (giving).

I think its directed towards him as a religious devotee. All the gods seem to demand suffering as proof of piety, whatever their nature; compensatory, belicose or otherwise.

[lokisnow]

However, I will agree that there seems to be a pretty big difference between Yatwer's strength in TJE and what we see in PoN. However, given that our primary POVs in PoN are Kellhus, who doesn't care about the gods, Akka, who dislikes them, Cnaiur, who holds them in contempt, and Esmi, who is jaded because she sees herself as damned... well, it's not too surprising that they're not all religious.

Family trait, much?

[lokisnow]

All I can add about Onkiss is her symbol, the copper tree, is also the symbol of Cujara Cinmoi's mansion - no idea what that signifies, if anything.

Jukon, god of sky and season.

Ah, so Siol is Cil Aujus? It's not the nonman mansion ruins Kell finds in the prologue where he faces Mek before a mighty (possibly copper) Tree?

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Yeah, I think that a lot of us assumed that Cleric had to be a name from somewhere, but maybe he is simply Incariol, and he's stayed out of the history books that Akka wouldst know him from.

Akka thinks in TJE that Incariol must be one of great power of Earwa and is astonished he never heard his name which looks like clear foreshadowing Cleric is in fact someone we heard of. Also, Pat mentions in his review we learn Cleric's true identity in WLW, and I doubt he would care to mention it if the answer was "some random Ishroi".

As for who he is, I vote for Su'juroit, because it would be so cool. The way to bet is Nin'janjin, though.

[Nerdanel]

The debunking of my theory about the Third Sight being the Judging Eye also confirms my other theory about all the Cishaurim being able to detect skin-spies with ease. I remember suggesting that they could perhaps see souls...

For the Cishaurim, detecting skin-spies is as easy as going to a place with people and checking with a glance that every body has a soul. Kellhus was utterly wrong about Moënghus having discovered the skin-spies by himself, let alone by something as impractical as minute discrepancies in their voices. What else was Kellhus wrong about?

I think the skin-spies have been around for centuries, having arrived when the Consult sorcerers retreated. I don't think the Consult would want to leave themselves blind in the Three Seas for centuries. The strategy of the skin-spies was to avoid replacing heads of state but instead choose lower-profile characters that still were well-placed for gathering information and influencing policy. One of the things they did was to denigrate the Mandate at every turn for believing in the Consult. Meanwhile the Consult was likely preparing an invasion of the Three Seas. Perhaps the final phase of the skin-spy infiltration would have been more overt, but the Consult never got to that.