[BOOK SPOILERS] EP101 Discussion

[A Song of Hound and Wolves]

First time post, be gentle.

I agree that there are minor things with which I could quibble, but I won't because the series completely won me over. I know the precise moment; it was during the dinner scene when Robb answers his mother's nod and removes Arya from the table. At that moment, I suddenly felt overwhelmingly sad for all the Starks (knowing their upcoming fates) and I realized how much I already loved this sweet family. Not from the books, but the characters as I was seeing them in this production. And I ached to think of these parents and youngsters going off on their separate and tragic paths.

The development of the Stark family was fantastic and completely won me.

(Having said that, put me down in the confused/upset/disturbed column for the Dany/Drogo consummation.)

[Balefont]

I can't disagree more. Drogo showed a barbaric sense of tenderness that visually made sense. Trying to turn him into some onscreen casanova would have been totally unbelievable. Even in the books, Dany needs time and the advice (and demonstration) from her handmaidens to completely embrace the sexual relationship with Drogo. Her tears made her seem like a rape victim, but for the time and place, his actions were determined, not brutal. I don't think the writers will have any problem moving their relationship to the "Sun and Stars" phase. She still doesn't even speak Dothraki. And it didn't happen overnight in the books either.

I think they want to show a change in Drogo's character. As nice as it was to believe that Drogo was kind to Dany from the first moment it might have seemed odd to non-readers that a hardened killer like Drogo who'd probably had no problem taking women in the past would be able to restrain himself now. Especially considering the language difference. It also would be hard for some to believe that Dany would get over her own fear in time to consummate her marriage. It's a bit different without the inner monologue to show this. Perhaps they could have had Drogo not consummate the marriage at all at that moment when she started crying, but I'm not too broken up by how they did it. I'm 100% with the Sword of Morning.

Agreed. I'm on the fence as well. I don't think Drogo came across as brutal, but Dany just seemed so fragile that the contrast is really what hits home.

Precisely. It's a change I'm willing to accept assuming that the arcs are properly developed over the season. The whole "How can she ever trust him after he rapes her on her wedding night" is an argument where you're bringing too much of your own beliefs into the equation. Dany knew what was going to happen - what had to happen - at her wedding. In the books, yes, he's tender and his foreplay helps drive away most of her fear. But night after night of traveling with the khalessar he takes her like a dog, roughly without tenderness, until she finds an inner strength to accept her fate and take control of it. The wedding night in the books will not jive well with the onscreen story without Dany's inner monologue for the viewer. And that just ain't gonna happen or work.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I am a huge fan of the series, and my wife has never read them. I've been talking about how excited I was for this show to premiere for months now, and she knows I obsessively check GRRM's page to find out when the next book will be coming out. Basically, she knew she was expected to watch this with me when it came out(and its not a stretch to get her to watch it, since she likes fantasy and scifi film and television, as well as comics and books).

She brought an outside perspective to this series, and had some thoughts that I hadn't even considered, especially since this is so close to my heart. She was majorly offended at how the Dothraki were handled. They are portrayed here as a savage group of primitives who rape and kill on a whim. And since this is the only view of a different ethnic group, it is offensive to people looking for an equal portrayal of cultures. It was hard to argue against this view point, especially since the culture was changed from how it appears in the books. I never got any racist undertones from the books, so it was weird for me to hear that point of view, but I can definitely see it now from their portrayal in the show. Any thoughts on this?

Tell her about the Ironborn, the Dothraki aren't the only killing/raping/pillaging barbarians in the book.

[The Prophet]

My take on the Dany/Drogo scene:

The bottom line is between know and Episode 10 we have to see Dany go from the passive, demure, follower that she is in the beginning of the book to Daenerys Freaking Stormborn! Ready to be a total Badass by the end. I think they will speed through the intricacy of Drogo and Dany's relationship. Drogo's gentlemanly side will just have to go unnoticed for now, every single little piece of every single character isn't going to make the cut.

[georgeforeman]

The Dany Drogo scene did not bother me....he is a frickin' barbarian and she is his wife...what do you think is gonna happen? It is not like historically the consummation of weddings in the novels are all super honey sweet and other couple have found love. I thought the scene was just fine.

The problem isn't that it was unrealistic or "out of character" for some generic barbarian lord. The problem is the way it defines Dany and Drogo's relationship from the start vs. what their relationship turns into in the books. It's hard to get to the latter once you start with the former.

[DaddyTorgo]

I am a huge fan of the series, and my wife has never read them. I've been talking about how excited I was for this show to premiere for months now, and she knows I obsessively check GRRM's page to find out when the next book will be coming out. Basically, she knew she was expected to watch this with me when it came out(and its not a stretch to get her to watch it, since she likes fantasy and scifi film and television, as well as comics and books).

She brought an outside perspective to this series, and had some thoughts that I hadn't even considered, especially since this is so close to my heart. She was majorly offended at how the Dothraki were handled. They are portrayed here as a savage group of primitives who rape and kill on a whim. And since this is the only view of a different ethnic group, it is offensive to people looking for an equal portrayal of cultures. It was hard to argue against this view point, especially since the culture was changed from how it appears in the books. I never got any racist undertones from the books, so it was weird for me to hear that point of view, but I can definitely see it now from their portrayal in the show. Any thoughts on this?

I can see how she might think this - I think the key is to tell her to stick with it and as Dany becomes more and more integrated into the Dothraki I think we'll see the perspective of the way they are portrayed change massively.

[HokieStone]

My one question - where was Theon? Was he the 3rd guy in the haircut scene?

[Trebla]

Oh, was he up for the role? Or did he play it in the first version of the pilot? He would have been great!

Yup. He was in the pilot but IIRC a scheduling conflict made him unavailable afterwards.

Quibbles: I also was meh about the shirtless stud scene. :P The only CGI scene that didn't look quite right was when Bran was running on the rooftop of Winterfell as the KL party arrived. Seemed a bit off.

I did LOVE the Heartstree scene. Perfect. The tree looked perfect. I liked how they included it in the credits. The credits were fantastic. I also think Michele Fairley and Sean Bean have very good chemistry. I really liked the pillowtalk scene as they gossip about how fat Robert got. heh.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

My one question - where was Theon? Was he the 3rd guy in the haircut scene?

Yes, he was also the guy who insisted on killing the wolf pups.

[Daemon23]

But the shirtless scene w/ the 3 boys? That just seemed so hokey and obviously contrived.

It's called "fan service" and I am not complaining. It isn't like we didn't see any topless women, so a little screen time for those of us uninterested in boobs is very much appreciated. ;)

All in all, I found this pretty darn faithful to the books. I did spend a good ten minutes going over who's who and the established plot points with my mom (who has not read the books, but likely will if she enjoys the series), because it is complicated, but aside from needing to explain who the Targaryens were, she followed pretty well.

Sean Baen does not look a thing like my mental image of Ned Stark, but he nailed the persona and I am sure I'll get to the point where I no longer notice the discrepency.

The acting was good (yes, even from the children), the major plot points were laid out fairly adroitly, and they chose a very good moment with which to end the first episode. I say thumbs up.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

The problem isn't that it was unrealistic or "out of character" for some generic barbarian lord. The problem is the way it defines Dany and Drogo's relationship from the start vs. what their relationship turns into in the books. It's hard to get to the latter once you start with the former.

I don't think their relationship was ever as ideal as the book indicated, I always felt Dany's attachment to Drogo had a little bit of Stockholm Syndrome to it.

[Steel_Wind]

I assumed it was thrown in there to connect the appearances between original Pilot Jon and Robb and the scenes filmed later.

Exactly.

[moonjump05]

The only thing I wanted was more Hound. Was the entire courtyard dueling scene taken out? Isn't that where Tyrion was supposed to slap Joffery with the Hound watching?

It should be next episode, it's after Bran falls.

I watched with my mom and her boyfriend- both who read not the books- overall very positive from both of them. My mom had seen some of the previews and wanted to watch it, she felt bad for Jon, Bran, Daenerys, and oddly enough King Robert. Her bf liked the prologue alot, Tyrion, and commented on the shaving scene that Jon should get a vesectomy while he was at it- I couldn't stop laughing.

I really liked the title sequence- it's almost steampunk. Visually the episode was great- nothing really grated on me.

[Horus Ex Machina]

She brought an outside perspective to this series, and had some thoughts that I hadn't even considered, especially since this is so close to my heart. She was majorly offended at how the Dothraki were handled. They are portrayed here as a savage group of primitives who rape and kill on a whim. And since this is the only view of a different ethnic group, it is offensive to people looking for an equal portrayal of cultures. It was hard to argue against this view point, especially since the culture was changed from how it appears in the books. I never got any racist undertones from the books, so it was weird for me to hear that point of view, but I can definitely see it now from their portrayal in the show. Any thoughts on this?

I often thought that this might be brought up, but the easiest rebuttal is that the white cultures are portrayed as being no less capable of amoral behavior. The only reason that we see the "better" side of them is that the story focuses on them more in the early episodes. But we still see savagery from the Westeros. Once Dany becomes more ingrained in the Dothraki culture we'll see the better side of them as well. Especially as Dany tries to become more like them as her arc progresses. It's only the first episode and we are initially outsiders to their culture and the only one who calls them savages is Viscerys. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

[Trebla]

It's called "fan service" and I am not complaining. It isn't like we didn't see any topless women, so a little screen time for those of us uninterested in boobs is very much appreciated. ;)

lol, good point. Esmé Bianco and Emilia Clarke. :drool: :leer:

[iheartseverus]

I, too, am muchly bothered by the Dany-Drogo wedding night. I understand the nuances--Drogo is a barbarian so this was 'tender' from that point of view. But, that seems a thin moral-equivalence argument to me. Like, rape isn't really rape if the rapist isn't as brutal as he usually is. Uhhhh, what? And, using that argument to have Dany come to love and respect her rapist as her Sun-and-Stars is...appalling. Rape's okay, guys, its cool, really. She'll love you for it in time. I'm not okay with that scene, at all.

[Dragon of Valyria]

Blah, and the drooling begins. You should not look at the true queen that way!

Somebody mentioned that there was little to no context for Robert's Rebellion--that's a fair point. It's hinted at, and we know what they mean, but I wonder if a first time viewer would have followed it at all. Well, I know a few, I'll wait and see until they get to their DVRs.

[Balefont]

I, too, am muchly bothered by the Dany-Drogo wedding night. I understand the nuances--Drogo is a barbarian so this was 'tender' from that point of view. But, that seems a thin moral-equivalence argument to me. Like, rape isn't really rape if the rapist isn't as brutal as he usually is. Uhhhh, what? And, using that argument to have Dany come to love and respect her rapist as her Sun-and-Stars is...appalling. Rape's okay, guys, its cool, really. She'll love you for it in time. I'm not okay with that scene, at all.

So all her subsequent couplings with Drogo in the books are not rape because she said yes on Night #1?

[HokieStone]

Yes, he was also the guy who insisted on killing the wolf pups.

Wow...you think they could've at least thrown his name out there. Maybe a throwaway line from Robb like "A Greyjoy has no say in the fate of direwolves - remember you're my father's ward, not another of his sons" (well...something not as cheesy as that...but you get my point).

Anyway, that's the only negative that stuck out for me...no real introduction of Theon.

I didn't realize that it was different actors for Robb and Jon post-shaving, but it makes sense now...I remember thinking that they really looked different after the fact.

[johnnysd]

I thought it was close to perfect. I loved the Lord of the Rings movies but never loved the books. This was truly the first time that I got to see a fantasy book I love on the screen and it was powerful. Everything seemed right to me for the most part even if some people looked different than what I picture they felt right.

In terms of the Dany scene I think two things. First I think they will flesh out the entire Dany arc maybe a little more than in the books. Second, while the scene was more tender and consensual in the books, after that she pretty much gets raped every night. I think that we will see exactly the same arc on their relationship as in the books.

I loved it.