Race and Gender in Game of Thrones

[Westeros]

In the wake of the first episode, we have seen several people take issue with—on Twitter as well as on various forums—the show’s portrayal of certain issues relating to race and gender. There has also been some lively discussion on our own forum, such as here and here. Please note that both topics are ones that allow spoilers from the books to be posted.

A commentary of our own can be found in our newest article, a brief consideration of the criticism directed towards the show and the books on these matters.

Visit the Site!

[The hairy bear]

Great article, Ran, and one that sums up my thoughts on the matter very well. Thanks for writting it!

[TerraPrime]

First, a typo. You said "stiry" when you meant "story."

Second, I think a portion of the argument is overly simplistic. The issue is how would the readers react to the material. Or in this case, how would the viewers react to the material. SF/F fandom is littered with pages of heated argument over whether a certain work/scene is sexist/racist, and I think it should not be dismissed by a simple "a different time, a different place" argument. In our world, where the viewers and readers reside, sexism and racism are both integral experience for many people. I don't think it's illegitimate for some people to see shades of these in some of these material.

That said, I think it's important to distinguish between whether there's an intent to portray the material in a sexist and/or racist way from the actual experience of the audience. The fact that some audience may experience a sexist or racist undertone in the material does not mean that the use of those material by the authors/directors are meant to convey a sexist or racist message.

[Linda]

I am very uncomfortable with the idea of giving much weight -- other than acknowledging that how each person reacts is a valid reaction for them -- to how readers/viewers perceive something based on their own experiences. I think intent is the only thing one really can discuss in-depth, though I suppose one needs to make allowances for a portrayal that comes off as offensive due to what clearly is a high degree of ignorance of some particular issue.

But if we start talking personal experiences, it all gets very fluid. Plus, most of the complaints have not been framed in terms that make it sound like a matter of personal experiences but rather as aspects of the story that everyone ought to see and agree upon.

[Kalbear]

Or should characters in these sorts of settings have a modern viewpoint on these issues? Is it impossible for fantasy to not be seen as racist or anti-feminist unless it includes enlightened characters with modern viewpoints on such matters?

This is a strawman, and not at all fair to the central point.

The point is not whether or not the depictions should be done or not. The point is that they are going to offend. And that's okay! Art offending is not necessarily a bad thing. We should be offended at what is happening to Dany in the show. We should somewhat be offended by the Dothraki behavior, as we're seeing it through Dany's eyes. The question isn't whether or not this should never be done.

At the same time, people should be aware that these things do mean something outside the context of the show. And it's a lot easier to portray that things aren't good in a book than a show. If you want the show to be a popular hit, having tons of rape of women is probably a poor choice (guess it depends on the demographic you want). If you want the show to appeal to a broader scope of people, having all the dark-skinned people that you see be savages and doing bootyshaking dances is possibly a poor choice.

I also think this is a much bigger issue in the US than Europe, where media portrayals of culture were used as stigmatisms far more than elsewhere. In that respect, Linda, I don't think your notion of not giving weight is reasonable any more than it would be reasonable to dismiss the Jewish community for talking about bad depiction of Jews in German movies would be. It needs sensitivity to be handled well.

Now, I think that most people are okay with the pilot, and while it made them uncomfortable they hope that future eps will showcase less savagery and more reasonableness. I think that having an actual Dothraki language will really help this, oddly enough. But I wouldn't dismiss their views out of hand because you'd have to be bound to political correctness in order to do things.

As someone else on TWOP put it, the misogyny in AGOT is akin to the implicit racism in the Wire. You can have racism and sexism in your show; Deadwood did this well, for example. What is desired is not a show without sexism or racism, but a show where the racism and sexism does not define the characters themselves. What is desired is people of agency of all creeds and colors who live in a sexist, racist world. GRRM does this brilliantly for the most part, especially with his women; the Dothraki, not quite so much.

And certainly not in the first episode, where any semblance of a character arc that Drogo might have got cut for time.

[Kat]

Just a note, I made a thread (spoilers for TV/books) on race & the Dothraki in the discussion area. I think it's worth talking about more.

[The Anti-Targ]

First, a typo. You said "stiry" when you meant "story."

Second, I think a portion of the argument is overly simplistic. The issue is how would the readers react to the material. Or in this case, how would the viewers react to the material. SF/F fandom is littered with pages of heated argument over whether a certain work/scene is sexist/racist, and I think it should not be dismissed by a simple "a different time, a different place" argument. In our world, where the viewers and readers reside, sexism and racism are both integral experience for many people. I don't think it's illegitimate for some people to see shades of these in some of these material.

That said, I think it's important to distinguish between whether there's an intent to portray the material in a sexist and/or racist way from the actual experience of the audience. The fact that some audience may experience a sexist or racist undertone in the material does not mean that the use of those material by the authors/directors are meant to convey a sexist or racist message.

I'd go along with this sentiment. I'm not for PC-ness at all I'm for authenticity. What seemed culturally inauthentic to me was the fact that Illaryo Mopatis was, other than his clothing and the style of his beard, indistinct from the nobility of Westeros: white, upper-class, English dude. Yet he is from an entirely different continent and a very different culture. If they wanted to keep it Eurocentric they could have given him a Mediterranean vibe. Otherwise a Middle Eastern or South Asian characterisation would have worked too. It strikes me as odd that 2 cultures that share the same landmass and intermingle with relative frequency (Pentosi and Dothraki) appear to have less in common than 2 cultures that are separated by a large body of water, and many centuries (Westeros and Pentos).

My worry is that too many English people will make for rather a boring palette. IMO the Englishness should have been restricted to Westeros north of Dorne, and everywhere else should have got different accents and races. I certainly hope they take the chance to have the other free cities, and especially the far off places such as the Qarth inject a lot more diversity into the show.

Logistically it is tricky casting for a decent amount of diversity, but it is doable with some effort.

[Dalan]

What seemed culturally inauthentic to me was the fact that Illaryo Mopatis was, other than his clothing and the style of his beard, indistinct from the nobility of Westeros: white, upper-class, English dude. Yet he is from an entirely different continent and a very different culture.

I am glad I'm not the only one who felt this way. I know Pentos is just across the narrow sea but... At least give him a different accent. For some reason he always felt Greek sounding to me.

[The Fan]

I am glad I'm not the only one who felt this way. I know Pentos is just across the narrow sea but... At least give him a different accent. For some reason he always felt Greek sounding to me.

Along these lines, I felt GRRM in the book took some amount of effort in describing Illyrio in such a way to make him really "different" and the producers spent entirely zero effort in making him varied (as mentioned).

A simple adjustment, and they wholly dropped the ball. His beard didn't need to look like fake plastic easter grass, but comb some dark green into his hair and subtly, he is clearly different. A truly missed opportunity.

[Linda]

Razorbeef,

I think that the level of sensitivity that a lot of the commentators seem to want is ... well, baffling. There's being thoughtful and there's walking on eggshells, trying not to offend. The latter should never be needed. I even saw people suggesting colour-blind casting for characters from Westeros. I find that idea completely and utterly laughable, to be perfectly honest.

I have also seen people complain about the ethnicity of the actors chosen for the Dothraki, as if it somehow is HBO saying "well, we know they're not white, so any non-white person will do, right?". While I would have loved to see Dothraki that all looked like they should, I can see why that wasn't doable. You kind of have to work with the extras you can get in the location that you are shooting in.

[The Fan]

I have also seen people complain about the ethnicity of the actors chosen for the Dothraki, as if it somehow is HBO saying "well, we know they're not white, so any non-white person will do, right?". While I would have loved to see Dothraki that all looked like they should, I can see why that wasn't doable. You kind of have to work with the extras you can get in the location that you are shooting in.

Along with this, the Dothraki, by definition as a conquering and assimilating group, are not all the same race, right? They are nomadic across a fairly wide area encountering many different races and cultures, so their make-up is going to be pretty varied, with some amount of certainty.

[Thefalconemperor]

I'd go along with this sentiment. I'm not for PC-ness at all I'm for authenticity. What seemed culturally inauthentic to me was the fact that Illaryo Mopatis was, other than his clothing and the style of his beard, indistinct from the nobility of Westeros: white, upper-class, English dude. Yet he is from an entirely different continent and a very different culture. If they wanted to keep it Eurocentric they could have given him a Mediterranean vibe. Otherwise a Middle Eastern or South Asian characterisation would have worked too. It strikes me as odd that 2 cultures that share the same landmass and intermingle with relative frequency (Pentosi and Dothraki) appear to have less in common than 2 cultures that are separated by a large body of water, and many centuries (Westeros and Pentos).

The narrow sea should be a few hundred miles large at most, besides Pentos and most of Westeros are just about the same latitude, so there's no reason for a big difference in skin color etc. Not to mention the andals came from Essos and they were the fairer of all Westerosi races. He was fine.

[Kalbear]

I think that the level of sensitivity that a lot of the commentators seem to want is ... well, baffling. There's being thoughtful and there's walking on eggshells, trying not to offend. The latter should never be needed. I even saw people suggesting colour-blind casting for characters from Westeros. I find that idea completely and utterly laughable, to be perfectly honest.

Sure, that's fine. But that's not the same as all the arguments put out there, and that's an extreme opinion. Why bother courting the extreme opinions unless all you care about is making your own point?

The point I made before about how you don't have to have a modern viewpoint of the characters, but the characters need to be real is the real sticking point for me. Whatever small amount of character Drogo had basically got cut or skipped over in the first episode, making him essentially a romance cover brought to life. When everyone of a non-white race is represented as either savage or as a sex object, that's not the best thing regardless of whether it be fantasy or just fiction. They did miss out on making Illyrio non-Westerosian as well, and at least he would have provided some level of counterpoint to Drogo.

Mostly, I think (much like GRRM) that it was ultimately not thought of. Which is fine, but the reality of bootyshaking is not quite as extreme in a novel as it is on the screen, and the effect is more pronounced.

[ZombieWife]

This comes at the perfect time for me. I visit a "mom" board that has well over 100,000 visitors per month and GoT has come up in the entertainment section. The first thing the women latched on to (women who had NOT read the books) was the gender/cultural question.

I wrote my own response to them but I hope I can link yours as well. I think it is really well written.

On a positive note, there were very few on that forum who didn't enjoy the first episode (gender/cultural issues aside).

[Xenophon]

Here's a link to a Slate piece on the subject.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

FWIW, I also like this piece on Racialicious, though that's talking about reviews/criticism, not the books or show themselves. LINK WARNING: MAJOR, MAJOR, series-long spoilers in there. The comments do start dealing with the show and books, and people's reactions thereto.

[Linda]

ZombieWife,

Feel free to link it, of course. :) It really bothered me to see these sorts of reactions and the assumptions that they are, in many cases, based on.

Razorbeef,

Its the nature of the Internet, I guess. Extreme opinions do tend to come across rather loudly and I don't like to leave those without a response.

That said, my personal belief is that when working with fantasy, the question of who is or isn't a minority becomes a very different one from the real world. Just because the viewpoint characters are what we perceive as "western", why do we have to assume that anyone else we encounter is a minority in the setting? The idea that any issues relating to non-white characters have to be treated extra cautiously even in a world that isn't our own is the wrong approach, I think. There's plenty of negative portrayal of people on both sides of the narrow sea.

As for Illyrio, I do not believe we have any indication that he should look different from the Westerosi characters except in his choice of garb and hair colouring. Just look at the blond and blue-eyed Lyseni; the Free Cities may be heavily Andalish and/or Valyrian.

[Kalbear]

That said, my personaf is that when working with fantasy, the question of who is or isn't a minority becomes a very different one from the real world. Just because the viewpoint characters are what we perceive as "western", why do we have to assume that anyone else we encounter is a minority in the setting? The idea that any issues relating to non-white characters have to be treated extra cautiously even in a world that isn't our own is the wrong approach, I think. There's plenty of negative portrayal of people on both sides of the narrow sea.

Great.

Where are the POSITIVE portrayals of said sides? As the livejournal joke goes, Aang can stay Asian and still save the world

It's also extra condescending to folks to tell them to leave their issues at the door because it's just a fantasy, and that 'it's okay, the Dothraki aren't actually a minority so it's not racist' is pretty much a fail argument from the getgo.

Again - if the Dothraki were given as much character, nuance and agency as the Westerosi this would not be an issue. And that's not something that is 'extra careful' to be thought about; that's a reasonable thing to think of doing. It only adds to the story. The problem is not that the Dothraki are bad and that's bad; it's that the Dothraki are PLAIN and that's bad. They're caricatured evil barbarians, or they're caricatured Noble Savages, but in either case they're not real humans. That's the real problem. You can wish to pussyfoot around that all you like, but when Shagga son of Dolf gets more character than any of Dany's bloodriders I think it's reasonable that the critics might have a small point.

As for Illyrio, I do not believe we have any indication that he should look different from the Westerosi characters except in his choice of garb and hair colouring. Just look at the blond and blue-eyed Lyseni; the Free Cities may be heavily Andalish and/or Valyrian.

If we don't have any indication that he should look different, then there's no reason he shouldn't look different either. Why not? What harm is there in doing so? And no, it's not necessary - but it would have helped tremendously in a place that given the criticism out there, could have used it in the first episode.

[Werthead]

The discussion on TWOP is quite interesting, especially as they try to set aside information from the books to concentrate on the portrayal in the TV series alone.

Again, the overall reaction to the show is very favourable over there (so far), again with this issue being the most contentious.

[Kat]

FWIW, I also like this piece on Racialicious, though that's talking about reviews/criticism, not the books or show themselves. LINK WARNING: MAJOR, MAJOR, series-long spoilers in there. The comments do start dealing with the show and books, and people's reactions thereto.

I hadn't seen that, but now that I've read it, it contains the best quote from a takedown of that NYT review yet:

One – who said SATC fans can’t be GoT fans? I am not the only person alive that got enjoyment out of both, for different reasons. I don’t expect Carrie Bradshaw and crew to suddenly roll out on an epic quest (remember how big of a deal it was for them to go to Brooklyn?)