[Book Spoilers] EP109 Discussion

[Manderly`s Personal Chef]

I didn`t mind Tyrion being knocked out before the battle even started. To tell the truth, I think they managed to do the battles the best possible way without showing them.

The last scene was heartbreaking. The way Sean Bean has played there is just...wow!

Oh, and Walder Frey... :thumbsup:

[JagfyrBlackfyre]

It's a medieval story about a dynastic power struggle with many competing factions, intrigues and betrayals -- there's politics and there's character development, yes, but the violence is also crucial. In this case it's not violence for the sake of violence, as we are delivered regularly in most Hollywood productions, but the sort of conflict that services the plot. Regardless, the way they handled the battles in "Baelor" is probably the best approach when shooting the battle itself is monetarily unfeasible.

Both battles, especially the Whispering Wood, might have been doable if they focused on one single character or group of characters, which is basically how it was written.

Nicely put Mountain, I agree with you wholeheartedly on you with this. I think it is safe to assume that money was the deciding factor in the battle-shooting decisions. Either there wasn't enough money to make it as awesome as the producers wanted or time (and hence money) was a deciding factor. They really should have depicted more though. Who knows, maybe we will get a flashback to the battles in the next episode. The Whispering wood battle was told in a 3rd person recollection via Catelyn, who did not experience the battle firsthand.

I fear we have lost any showing Tyrion's fighting prowess, and the character is seeming more docile than in the book. Recall the Mountain Clan fight on the way to the Eyrie and how Tyrion laid in to a few enemies with that battle axe in the books, whereas he only killed one guy haphazardly with a shield on TV. His fighting style in the books is underhanded and not enough to stand up to any common knight one on one, but it shows his ability to make great use of the situation. The helm spike through the horse for instance is almost hilarious, but nonetheless effective. I wish we would have seen some of that. Most importantly, we didn't see the development that Tyrion has through this battle. He certainly seems to grow bolder after this battle in the books, largely because Tywin is impressed by his unit's success and not just his survival. It sets him up for the moves he will be making in Kings Landing. I wonder if the Tyrion that shows up in King's Landing on TV will be slightly less inclined to instantly depose of Slynt, Food poison his sis to get her out of the way, or lead a deft sortie in a seemingly losing battle.

[Caine]

I found this the second-worst episode of the season so far (Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things being the worst). I really thought they nailed the ending. I teared up a bit at the end even though I knew what was coming, and that's something that never happened to me while reading the books. I think Ned's confession coupled with Arya's reaction (she just closes her eyes) really was shot magnificently for maximum shock and sadness value.

Put me down as one who was disappointed we didn't see any of the battle at Whispering Wood. Too many times, GRRM has the thrust of major events occurring off-screen. Later, we're privy to characters' reactions and then descriptions of the event. I really wished the tv series would change this one thing about GRRM's writing. I so badly wanted to see that battle. The siege of Riverrun, Jaime falling into Robb's trap, Jaime cutting down 10 men and many Karstarks, etc., anything.

The infodump scene with Tyrion, Bronn and Shae seemed out of place. It was boring and killed any pacing the series seemed to have built. My wife noted she didn't remember this scene and if the Tysha backstory is all that important right now. I didn't think so anyway. More infodump scenes up at the Wall too where nothing much happened either. I did like the scene was Walder Frey, but for some reason I imagined him smaller and more senile than we see on screen. I also imagined Walder Frey's court a lot bigger. Reading this scene in the book for the first time, I distinctly remember laughing. Not so in the tv series.

[Abaddon]

It was great showing that Jorah only won by good luck and skill-wise he was as outmatched as Jory was against Jaime.

I took something different from that. I think Jorah won because he was armored, and his Dothraki opponent (forget who it was) has obviously never seen anyone in armor fight before. Jorah, conversely, has seen a lot of Dothraki fights and this gives him a huge strategic advantage. The strike where he traps the arakh (sp?) of his opponent would have killed an unarmored man.

[damian]

I took something different from that. I think Jorah won because he was armored, and his Dothraki opponent (forget who it was) has obviously never seen anyone in armor fight before. Jorah, conversely, has seen a lot of Dothraki fights and this gives him a huge strategic advantage. The strike where he traps the arakh (sp?) of his opponent would have killed an unarmored man.

that was my take too

[The Human Abstract]

With the exception of the Blackwater, most of the battles in the series would be a waste of resources. The story can be told just as efficiently without paying a few hundred extras to have at each other for a couple of minutes. Despite the fact that battles are totally cool.

All you have to do is show a couple of characters fighting in "zoomed in" fashion, with a couple characters background fighting. They show characters melee fighting every show. I don't see why they would need some epic "Gladiator" style shot.

Just a little taste of it would have been fine.

[SerArthurHeath]

So prior to losing his hand, Jaime will have been fought to a draw( before his guard made it look like he was going to lose by interfering) by an old non-active non-knight, seen captured in a battle against a boy, and beaten to a pulp by a girl? Is anyone going to believe he is even slightly dangerous in the series?

[MountainThatRides]

I took something different from that. I think Jorah won because he was armored, and his Dothraki opponent (forget who it was) has obviously never seen anyone in armor fight before. Jorah, conversely, has seen a lot of Dothraki fights and this gives him a huge strategic advantage. The strike where he traps the arakh (sp?) of his opponent would have killed an unarmored man.

It's also telling of how a Dothraki on foot would not stand a chance against a knight of Westeros. The Dothraki are famous for their horsemanship -- and the use of mounted bowmen -- and the arakh is essentially a saber. It's made to deliver sweeping arcs from horseback on unarmored targets. Its use is very narrow, as opposed to a knight's longsword, which is a multipurpose weapon.

The Dothraki, even on foot, are certainly still dangerous, and had Jorah made a misstep, that arakh might have taken his head off. Armor makes a huge difference though, and Jorah wasn't even wearing gorget and helm. In a battle between a Westerosi army and a Dothraki khalasar, you have to imagine that the feudal levies (peasants, men-at-arms) would be fodder. Ordered ranks of pike, however, would stand up as they are specifically designed to counter mounted opponents. Beyond the infantry, the knights overmatch Dothraki in all but numbers. They're both elite, trained mounted warriors; certainly Dothraki are probably better horsemen, but not by a staggering margin. I don't see the Dothraki being able to reel and charge against armored lances -- each contact would be far more detrimental to them. This is pretty off-topic, but Jorah crushed that guy and it snaps into focus the fact that the Dothraki, while fearsome, are not the be-all, end-all warriors. I don't remember by how much they outnumbered the Unsullied at Qohor, but they get mangled by discipline.

[Tywin's bastard]

I took something different from that. I think Jorah won because he was armored, and his Dothraki opponent (forget who it was) has obviously never seen anyone in armor fight before. Jorah, conversely, has seen a lot of Dothraki fights and this gives him a huge strategic advantage. The strike where he traps the arakh (sp?) of his opponent would have killed an unarmored man.

I'm of the same opinion as you and it was foreshadowed by the talk Jorah had with Rakharo earlier in the season, and also somewhat in how Syrio describes the knight's dance. Jorah didn't have the speed and technique of Qotho but he had knowledge and experience in the differences of their styles and could therefor be more effective. It all has done a great job of portraying Jorah as living on being a thinking and realistic warrior that can often make up for lack of talent compared to the best.

[Quoth]

Wait.

Wait!

WAIT ONE DAMN SECOND! No Tower of Joy scene???!!! And the debate is about how big this or that battle should be shown?! Or about some added in info dump drinking game? ToJ, besides being one of the most badass scenes in the book with some of the best lines, contains HUGE hints about Jon's parents, or so we've been arguing the past.... I dunno... decades? How will this crucial plot angle possibly be presented now? Unless, you know, who Jon's parents are is of no consequence at all and we've been in a gigantic circle jerk all this time. GRRRRRRR!!!!!!

[DonalNoye]

I actually understand leaving that out. You'd have to cast Howland Reed, who hasn't even appeared in the books yet.

[Tywin's bastard]

Wait.

Wait!

WAIT ONE DAMN SECOND! No Tower of Joy scene???!!! And the debate is about how big this or that battle should be shown?! Or about some added in info dump drinking game? ToJ, besides being one of the most badass scenes in the book with some of the best lines, contains HUGE hints about Jon's parents, or so we've been arguing the past.... I dunno... decades? How will this crucial plot angle possibly be presented now? Unless, you know, who Jon's parents are is of no consequence at all and we've been in a gigantic circle jerk all this time. GRRRRRRR!!!!!!

Well, after the first two episodes some people were complaining that the show made the mystery of Jon's mother too obvious so it's hard to please everyone. They have already presented the problem and the ToJ scene does not solve it, it's just one of the several hints. The actual solution is yet to come and it will at the very earliest come in the fifth book. I don't see any problem for them to reveal that in season 5 or later.

I actually understand leaving that out. You'd have to cast Howland Reed, who hasn't even appeared in the books yet.

Not to mention that if they show some actual combat (which is probably necessary if they did show the scene) they'd have to make it clear exactly how Howland helped Eddard, which is something that's intentionally been left vague in the books (with the warging, poisons etc being various theories).

[Tywin's bastard]

It's also telling of how a Dothraki on foot would not stand a chance against a knight of Westeros. The Dothraki are famous for their horsemanship -- and the use of mounted bowmen -- and the arakh is essentially a saber. It's made to deliver sweeping arcs from horseback on unarmored targets. Its use is very narrow, as opposed to a knight's longsword, which is a multipurpose weapon.

The Dothraki, even on foot, are certainly still dangerous, and had Jorah made a misstep, that arakh might have taken his head off. Armor makes a huge difference though, and Jorah wasn't even wearing gorget and helm. In a battle between a Westerosi army and a Dothraki khalasar, you have to imagine that the feudal levies (peasants, men-at-arms) would be fodder. Ordered ranks of pike, however, would stand up as they are specifically designed to counter mounted opponents. Beyond the infantry, the knights overmatch Dothraki in all but numbers. They're both elite, trained mounted warriors; certainly Dothraki are probably better horsemen, but not by a staggering margin. I don't see the Dothraki being able to reel and charge against armored lances -- each contact would be far more detrimental to them. This is pretty off-topic, but Jorah crushed that guy and it snaps into focus the fact that the Dothraki, while fearsome, are not the be-all, end-all warriors. I don't remember by how much they outnumbered the Unsullied at Qohor, but they get mangled by discipline.

How they would do would also greatly depend on how much the Dothraki relied on mounted archers. We do know that it's part of their military knowledge, although not to what extent it's used.

[JagfyrBlackfyre]

WAIT ONE DAMN SECOND! No Tower of Joy scene???!!! And the debate is about how big this or that battle should be shown?! Or about some added in info dump drinking game? ToJ, besides being one of the most badass scenes in the book with some of the best lines

Certainly is one of the most intriguing scenes in the books, but we not dealing with the books. Having a TOJ scene would confuse the utter hell out of non book reading viewers while also really messing with the pacing of the episode. This episode was very very dense as it stands, and extra scene in a different time and in a completely different place would have been detrimental. Plus there's the added budgetary needs for a TOJ scene (flying to shoot location, CGI for the tower and sword of morning, costumes, props, casting Howland Reed 5-6 seasons before he may appear again, etc). It's completely unrealistic to expect this scene now, however the battle scenes were quite crucial to the entertainment value as well as story arc and character development.

[cdawnb]

Count me in as one who somewhat liked what they did with the Shea character. She seems more well rounded than the book Shea who acted like a spoiled child, not an experienced whore. I am willing to give them a chance to develop the character further. I wasn't totally thrilled with the drinking game though.

The battle scenes? I am kind of torn on this. It would have been nice to see some from Tyrion's perspective but it would have been worse if the scenes came off as cheesy because of budget concerns. One thing they could have done is have him ride off with his men and then the next time we see him would be when he is in the cart. :dunno:

Loved Dani and the sounds coming out of the tent during the spell casting. Lots of shivers and goose bumps during that scene. I always wondered if Jorah hadn't taken her into the tent would her son have survived?

The Jon/Ameon scene was perfect. I wasn't that up on the actor they choose to play Ameon in the first place, but he nailed it here. I don't mind that they shortened the genealogy at all.

Loved the look on Cat's face when she saw Robb riding up. As a mother of a son close to that age it was easy for me to relate to what she was feeling. Robb's speech was very well written and acted

And Ned? Well, what can you say? Sad, sick, and sorry with a feeling of betrayal that slammed you right in the gut and kept pushing until the very last shot with the birds flying away. :crying:

[The Human Abstract]

I actually liked the drinking game, enjoyed the acting, and thought it was a nice way of getting around the lack of internal monologue.

[Brewmaster]

Some people have complained that they're not being true to Bronn's character. Since we've all read the books, we know that Tyrion always tried to keep his relationships with both Bronn and Shae in perspective, but was also know that he often forgot (certainly more with Shae than with Bronn.) However, the TV show can't just throw the script into italics and have Tyrion tell us all what he's thinking, as we see often in the books. I thinkt he show will make up for this by having scenes like this, where we warm to both Shae and Bronn (not always together in the same scene, obviously), but often they will throw in a line or two that reminds us what the real dynamic is in those relationships. Bronn mentions he was north of the Wall for work. Not intrique, not friendship, but work. He's a sellsword, and that's why he's drinking with Tyrion, because Tyrion signs his paychecks.

And really, even if they never again mention that Shae is a whore and have us all fall in love with her, or if they make Bronn out to be Tyrion's closest friend, all that will do is make their betrayal of Tyrion that much more appetizing.

Bronn basically was Tyrion's closest friend in the books. He never betrayed Tyrion, in the end he just wouldn't face the Mountain in single combat.

He never forgot who he was, a mercenary, but they did genuinely develop a fondness for each other and he says as much in their last conversation together. He wants Tyrion to survive the trial, he's just not going to go up against the Mountain, or cross Cersei / Tywin who at that point are much more powerful than Tyrion.

[ZombieWife]

Not all women look alike pregnant. My daughter is built like Dany and at 9 months she wasn't even that big looking and still had a 6lb 11oz completely healthy baby.

My thoughts exactly. I knew a woman who had a small frame and never looked more than 4 months pregnant. She delivered a 6lb baby. Women are built different and carry differently.

[Lannes]

I think a prefectly acceptable (and affordable) way to do the first battle would have been to tightly focus on Tyrion, in effect his POV, and the confusing shrinking focus that comabt becomes. Most who have fought will tell you they can't tell you a thing about what happened 10 feet away from them, much less sweeping, grand panoramas of battle.

Whispering Wood could have been done the same way, but at slightly higher cost.

[King Stannis I]

Wait.

Wait!

WAIT ONE DAMN SECOND! No Tower of Joy scene???!!! And the debate is about how big this or that battle should be shown?! Or about some added in info dump drinking game? ToJ, besides being one of the most badass scenes in the book with some of the best lines, contains HUGE hints about Jon's parents, or so we've been arguing the past.... I dunno... decades? How will this crucial plot angle possibly be presented now? Unless, you know, who Jon's parents are is of no consequence at all and we've been in a gigantic circle jerk all this time. GRRRRRRR!!!!!!

Agree and if filmed properly with shadows as Ned's knights and quick glimpses of the Kingsguard, the "bed of blood," "Promise me, Ned" and blue roses the mystery of R + L = J could be introduced.