[Book Spoilers] EP109 Discussion

[Panjer]

If you watch his live watching tv blog, as the credits roll he gets up and walks off camera and you can hear him banging stuff in the background.

Is there a link to that saved for posterity? I'd love to see that! xD

[Mad Sweeney]

What a strangely paced episode. There are scenes that had dragged (Tyrion, Bronn and Shae), scenes that have been entirely skipped (having Tyrion falling and losing his conscious was a really weak excuse to skip the battle, I can't imagine HBO couldn't come up with a clever way to show us some of this battle without raising the costs, were they just being lazy?) and scenes that were rushed (Dothraki story arc).

Maester Aemon is really a miscast, his delivery of lines irritates me to the death, and really distracted me from the emotional aspect of the scene (same is true for his scene with Tyrion and Mormont from way back).

The Battle of the Whispering Wood, which could be lifted directly from the book and still be hundred times better and more tense at minimal cost, was just another failure.

The only scene that stood out was off course the final scene (was GM Pycelle supposed to deliver speech, I think that the High Septon would be more fitting, but that's really minor). Cersei snapping at Joffrey and Varys rushing over to his side was really excellent.

:lmao: Yeah, Entourage and Big Love are ending and their direct competition with the other cable shows with a midieval tint is pretty much their flagship show and they did the Tyrion scene because they're lazy? I swear, some of you have never seen how TV works before with some of the complaints/fixes you offer that are "better" than what the experienced team at HBO (with heavy guidance from GRRM himself) come up with. Oh, for a show that got renewed for season 2 before the second episode aired no less. Yeah, the guys at HBO suck and are lazy! :lmao:

[The Anti-Targ]

Battle scenes could have been shown from the Book PoV's, which means relatively small scale. The Lannister/Bolton battle was told basically with not much more than 10 people "on the page" at any one time. Tyrion's biggest moment came when he was on the ground and impaled the horse with his helmet then made the knight yield, so there wasn't even any need for horses. Start the charge, cut to another scene, then back for a bit of mid battle action with Tyrion...

Same with Whispering Woods, Cat had an obscured view of the battle (at night, but I can understand that night shoots are more of a pain or harder to do well) which means there's no need to big expansive (and expensive) shots. They could have filmed Catelyn seeing Jaime cutting through 5 or 6 people and almost getting to Robb to create a real sense of jeopardy and relief.

Minutes spent playing games with Shae were weird, took a long time getting around to the point of the scene, seemed a bit like a time filler which should not have been necessary.

Final scene great.

Dothraki scenes great, almost totally by the book, apart from Jorah's lack of significant injury. It was great showing that Jorah only won by good luck and skill-wise he was as outmatched as Jory was against Jaime.

I enjoyed the Wall, but that was all set up for next episode, so I hope the pay off lives up to expectation.

I can't believe the ride is almost over and it's a whole year before we're visiting Westeros on screen again. I hope they get the Blu-ray out within 6 months and it has plenty of extra content. I'll have to really savour aDwD.

[Bahimiron]

To me, it's even worse that he didn't say/attempt to say anything. The lie is really what makes this scene unbearable. I can't remember if he tried to speak in the book, but I wish they would have suggested to the assembled crowd that it wasn't the truth.

Yes, the scene would have been improved by Ned shouting out that Joffrey's a bastard and then Ser Ilyn's blade being stopped just in time by Joffrey decding Ned should get to see Sansa executed before him. Ned's choosing love over honor, folks. That's kind of the point of Aemon asking Jon what Ned would do in, oh, the exact situation in which Ned finds himself. He doesn't know about Jaime or Robb's victories, so he must figure that his best bet for Sansa to stay safe as a hostage is for him to make the ultimate sacrifice.

[Daena the Defiant]

gods, that shit just never gets easier. poor Ned. we're eating chocolate ice cream and hugging the cats to recover. :bawl:

brilliant episode.

eww.....

Oh wait, you said "hugging the cats" and "eating the ice cream."

Otherwise, ya know, that would be rather weird.

[legba11]

Dothraki scenes great, almost totally by the book, apart from Jorah's lack of significant injury. It was great showing that Jorah only won by good luck and skill-wise he was as outmatched as Jory was against Jaime.

Jorah didn't win by luck, he knew his opponent didn't know how to fight an armored opponent (and his weapon is ill-suited for it). They talked about this in Ep 3? He trapped his sword in his armor in what would have been a fight ending shot against a non-armoed foe.

[lacuna]

Personally, I'd rather have a second season (and more) than one costly and ultimately flawed battle scene. Honestly, I can't think of any battle scene from any movie or show as good as GRRMs descriptions of war in the books. If you have a choice between B-grade material and not putting it in at all, I prefer the second option. Maybe unless you need filler,* which I think we could all agree that this show does not.

*And have a few extra million dollars lying around.

[Été]

Personally, I'd rather have a second season (and more) than one costly and ultimately flawed battle scene. Honestly, I can't think of any battle scene from any movie or show as good as GRRMs descriptions of war in the books. If you have a choice between B-grade material and not putting it in at all, I prefer the second option. Maybe unless you need filler,* which I think we could all agree that this show does not.

*And have a few extra million dollars lying around.

With the exception of the Blackwater, most of the battles in the series would be a waste of resources. The story can be told just as efficiently without paying a few hundred extras to have at each other for a couple of minutes. Despite the fact that battles are totally cool.

[Arya The Assassin]

The episode was pretty good, but not one of the best so far (not as good as episode 8), in my opinion.

Cool:

• Good direction and editing. The film had a better flow and pacing than many of the other episodes so far. There was only one scene that seemed out of place from a pacing perspective (see below)
• Many good dialogue scenes, with one exception (see below).
• Catelyn's visit to Walder Frey. After reading the book I had the impression that he was an older guy with a very strong libido, and the filmmakers didn't fail to convey that impression in this episode (the way he squeezed that young girl's buttocks and the way he kissed Catelyn's hand).
• Dany's scenes. I wasn't too excited by Emilia in the first part of the season, but she's getting better, and in this episode I think she was really good.
• Ned's beheading. This scene probably had the strongest emotional impact of any scene in the series so far, at least in my opinion. It was sad to see Ned's reaction as he caught a final glimpse of his daughter Arya. I think this was a nice emotional touch, because I don't remember this happening in the book. Sean Bean has been one of the finest actors in GOT and he was just great in this scene.
• Maisie was really good, I think. She showed her character's more vulnerable side as Arya begged for food in Flea Bottom. She didn't have many lines, but her facial expression said everything when she saw her father being brought before Joffrey to await his 'justice'. It's one of the things that makes Maisie such a good actor I think, she's a very expressive face but at the same time her reactions don't seem stiff, forced or unnatural.

Not so cool:

• The drinking game scene with Shae. I think the scene was way too long and ruined some of the nice rhythm of this episode. It didn't help that much that the dialogue was rather boring. I had the impression that the writers were thinking "Ok, we need to tell the story of how Jamie set Tyrion up with Tysha, and Tyrion's 'arranged' marriage. Hmm, let's try this angle: We start with a drinking game which then segues over to Tyrion revealing his story about Tysha." I just felt that the drinking game angle didn't work. I believe the writing also changed Shae's personality a bit compared to the character in the book, although I think this is far less serious than the pacing issues.
• No onscreen battles. After reading interviews with the producers about how they wanted the battles to look better than those in Rome, and mentioning two battles specifically (Battle of the Green Fork was one of them), I was rather disappointed to see that they only showed the aftermath of the battle. Granted, in the book Tyrion and his men fell behind (he was leading the left wing) and Tyrion didn't see the main battle himself (I also seem to remember that he was hit in the shoulder and fell unconscious), but not giving the viewers more than glimpses from the aftermath was a bit disappointing (but when I think of it, the preview should've been a warning, because there were no battle footage there, and HBO would probably have included it if they had shot some battle scenes). I guess they ran into budgetary issues/challenges and decided to not shoot the battle, after all. Or they might have decided to spend the money on another and more important battle later. I was just hoping we'd see at least one battle in the first season. Perhaps we'll get to see a major battle in the last episode? (I'm not sure which one that'll be, though)
• Tyrion gets knocked out (by accident) by one of his own men?! Was this some kind of 'excuse' for not showing (any part of) the battle? As far as I can remember, Tyrion fought relatively well in that battle, and he was certainly not knocked out even before the battle started. I think this looks rather stupid, regardless of whether you've read the books or not. I think it would've been much better to simply cut the scene before Tyrion gets knocked down. The next scene would show him wounded on a litter (just like in the TV show). We don't get to see how he was injured, but I think that's better than showing him being run down by accident (people who've read the book will assume he was wounded in the battle itself, just like in the book), and it would also suggest that he fought bravely in battle. It's not a major issue for me, but I think it was unnecessary and it looked stupid.

[Ser Aardvark]

battle of actium (big fleet battle) in hbo's rome was completely skipped to the end to a rowboat and some bloodied soldiers.

the battle of blackwater would be really cool to see on screen, i hope it makes it, just saying though, it would probably cost too much to make it look good.

BTW, this wasn't intentional. My understanding is they WANTED to devote an entire season to the outing of Anthony and Cleopatra and have a battle scene but when the show got cancelled mid-season they had to do some furious re-writes and ended up eliminating the battle.

[GoTreviews]

While I do understand the logistics in cutting a battle, it saddens me to see Tyrion miss his big fight. After all he does somewhat impress Tywin in the books... and that's something, especially for Tyrion. Between that and the gold coin for Tysha missing, I feel like a lot is left out about Tyrion.

Other than that, it's been said a thousand times already but man, what a final scene.

edit: oh, also bothering, the bit about Mirri and the baby. She watches Dany's belly in a pretty obvious way, but then the fact that Dany comes to the tent seems completely random. I mean, going in that tent, with those screams, instead of forcing the usual Dothraki women to deliver the baby? That seemed wrong.

[damian]

apparently shae's big secret is the actress playing her used to be a porn star

[Ser Aardvark]

While I do understand the logistics in cutting a battle, it saddens me to see Tyrion miss his big fight. After all he does somewhat impress Tywin in the books... and that's something, especially for Tyrion. Between that and the gold coin for Tysha missing, I feel like a lot is left out about Tyrion.

Other than that, it's been said a thousand times already but man, what a final scene.

edit: oh, also bothering, the bit about Mirri and the baby. She watches Dany's belly in a pretty obvious way, but then the fact that Dany comes to the tent seems completely random. I mean, going in that tent, with those screams, instead of forcing the usual Dothraki women to deliver the baby? That seemed wrong.

So run around the big open chaotic camp searching for midwives then forcing them by sword point to deliver the baby while Dany is wounded, unconscious, and possibly dying? I'm not saying it was the right thing to do but it was the closest of two bad options. Despite that, and the fact that I got why Jorah did thatfrom watching the show but I can see how people would be confused.

[Ser Aardvark]

double post

[Lannister Fan]

Amazing ep. I find I am liking Varys and Jorah alot more in the show, since they are portrayed a bit more sympathetically. Ned's execution was even better then the book, I was really surprised by this one. I am enjoying having Robb as a POV character. It's easy to nit pick about many things but HBO are doing a fine job and I am impressed.

[MountainThatRides]

With the exception of the Blackwater, most of the battles in the series would be a waste of resources. The story can be told just as efficiently without paying a few hundred extras to have at each other for a couple of minutes. Despite the fact that battles are totally cool.

Of course you're correct in that showing every battle in full detail would be a waste. I can understand why they are forced to make decisions on what to spend their money on, but this book series is about a war, or multiple wars. It's a medieval story about a dynastic power struggle with many competing factions, intrigues and betrayals -- there's politics and there's character development, yes, but the violence is also crucial. In this case it's not violence for the sake of violence, as we are delivered regularly in most Hollywood productions, but the sort of conflict that services the plot. Regardless, the way they handled the battles in "Baelor" is probably the best approach when shooting the battle itself is monetarily unfeasible.

The Green Fork was important because it showcased the tactical abilities on both sides: Robb's strategic choice in splitting his forces and in giving Roose command of the infantry; Roose's shrewd command that saved his host from annihilation; Tywin's consummate skill in achieving victory against the northern army. Bolton had a chance at winning, but Tywin smashed him and made it look so casual -- the sort of attitude reminiscent of Edward Longshanks at Falkirk in Braveheart. Beyond this, there's also the intimate perspective of Tyrion trapped in the chaos of battle, despite being a rather lackluster warrior, and managing not only to survive but to distinguish himself through cleverness and a bit of dumb luck. So even this "minor" battle has import, not that I'm saying they needed to depict it. I'm just defending the complaint.

Both battles, especially the Whispering Wood, might have been doable if they focused on one single character or group of characters, which is basically how it was written. The Green Fork followed Tyrion, slogging it out in the mud and blood, and the Whispering Wood was barely visible anyway. Neither battle required huge, sweeping LotR-style shots to make them work. A lot of people attacked HBO's Rome for its battles, but I thought they were very well-done for television. Rome had an astronomical budget, but it was mostly spent on the filming itself, due to the high cost of shooting in Italy; the first episode's battle against the Gauls was intimate, following Pullo and Vorenus, and though it felt real and impressive it wasn't grandiose in any way.

My consolation is that there are much more important battles -- like the Blackwater, which they have to at least show part of. Davos and wildfire, and Tyrion leading his sortie, perhaps even Tywin and "Renly" coming up to take Stannis in the rear. It's not going to be like Helm's Deep (and perhaps that's a good thing), but I'm sure they'll do a good job. Plus, this series is rife with more manageable conflicts: plenty of great duels and smaller-scale fights (the Hound at the Inn, the Brotherhood without Banners, etc) which serve to show the violence of this world as well as a battle. Kudos on Dan & Dave for their choices, though. I thought they handled the omissions in the best possible way.

[JagfyrBlackfyre]

edit: oh, also bothering, the bit about Mirri and the baby. She watches Dany's belly in a pretty obvious way, but then the fact that Dany comes to the tent seems completely random. I mean, going in that tent, with those screams, instead of forcing the usual Dothraki women to deliver the baby? That seemed wrong.

The way the TV Version presented it, yeah that tent would be the least logical place to go. Jorah would be better off playing midwife himself than heading into that creepshow. However in the book, only Dany seems to be able to tell that there is something overtly supernatural going on inside. The Dothraki just hear some foreign singing and chanting from a despicable Maegi. It peeves them, but doesn't freak them out. Dany, however is very freaked out and she tries in vain to plead not to carry her inside.

Overall it seems that the oddity in this scene comes from the difficulty of not being able to easily convey on screen that only Dany sees and hears weird stuff from the tent. To continue the story, she has to go in and be affected by whats inside, so the TV version could not fore go this. Nor could they make it feasible that no one else heard the unnatural sounds without some weird and pace killing cuts and POV shots.

[GoTreviews]

I don't think it was easy to do in any sort of way, but really, as it shown, the tent screams "DO NOT ENTER". On another subject, any one has any clue of Ned's last words before he got "Iced" ?

[Kalbear]

I was fine with the Green Fork. I really, really wish they had imparted how important and how huge a victory the Whispering Wood was. I was even okay with them not showing anything - though if there was a battle in the books they could have done for cheap, this was it - but I got the feeling that 'okay, Robb won, woohoo' but that was it. We didn't get the notion that Robb annihilated that host at almost no cost to himself. Hopefully next ep.

Otherwise really stellar ep. Liked this version of Shae as well; I don't think that I would want to watch a Ros-like whore for a ton of eps next season, but this one I would. I liked the drinking game, and I really liked Bronn in it.

[King Stannis I]

The series has been very good but somethings irk me:

1) No Tower of Joy Dream Sequence and no last thoughts from Ned about Jon

2) Sexposition Scenes -- Kind of weird that all of the stuff that viewers might think of as boring exposition has been filled in with gratuitous sex to make it interesting... Littlefinger's scene was the worst of the bunch.

3) Arya's First Kill

4) Tyrion knocked out before the battle

5) Tyrion not having the last go at Tysha in his story

#1 though I think is thing I missed the most. It is such a great scene in the book.