[Book Spoilers] EP109 Discussion

[Joey Geko]

So damn good! http://www.youtube.com/#/profile?user=OtakuASSEMBLE&v=mOoA1OtcNjM&view=videos

OtakuAssemble is my new hero.

[Grack21]

Of course, GRRM only wrote a couple of important battlescenes, but in a visual medium, what's more, in a fantasy series, people are gonna want to see some battles. Hell, I want to see some battles, even though I don't want them changing anything from the books. It's only natural to want to see what happened, how they captured Jaime, and when an episode has two battles occur offscreen, it gets a bit annoying.

Anyway, how are they gonna go with the siege at Riverrun? Since Robb doesn't get to the castle this season, are they going to lift the siege at the beginning of next season, or are we going to hear about the siege being lifted, and end it there (after the King of the North, of course)? What d'ya think?

Yeah, I understand the disappointment, but I think some people are making to big a deal out of it. It's not like if they had cut Helm's Deep from LotR.

[Asarlai]

A Song of Ice and Fire is not about battles.

How else do the kings clash, the swords storm, or the crows feast?

To complain that a scene of men swinging swords at each other was cut in favour of a lengthy, nuanced bit of character development is so utterly retarded I don't even know where to begin.

"Reveal personal detail, DRINK! Reveal personal detail, DRINK! Not all whores are stereotypical, DRINK! Make up detail, DRINK! Reveal personal detail, DRINK!"

How nuanced, how gripping, how wonderful.

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

I would rather not have a battle scene if it was going to be total cheese because of budget restrictions. As I said before though, I would have liked to have seen Jaime getting captured or at least more explanation (for non book readers) about the plan Robb had. It was kinda like..."hey Mom, look who we found!"

[jfrenchy]

There seemed to be much more music in this one, and it was good. Or was that just me? I wonder if the very tight timeline is why only this latest (and next?) episode have so much music.. or if it's simply a stylistic choice.

yes there was more music, and i also found this episode's soundtrack to be good. it's the build up for the final scene, and they did it well imo. season finale ought to have something similar, although i can't think of any scene that will be able to top off what we see at the end

I'm pretty sure I heard the

during the aftermath of Tyrion's battle, when dying men were being finished off.

ever since i first read about the Wilhelm scream i've always been noticing it.. and it's used everywhere! it's a good scream. but yeah it was in there at that scene

i'd like to add that the scenery shots of the twins was really cool, and also seeing the freys, that was awesome

ep9 my favorite episode so far!

[Lady Blackfish]

I think I was more disappointed in this episode than most people, though I still like it overall. My issue was how the different scenes/storylines were meted out over the episode, I think. I feel like the breakdown of the episode could've been tweaked to build up better to the drama, it ended up being quite a come-down off of the high from episode eight, until the very end where it seemed to spike out of, well, not quite nowhere, but a bit too much in that direction IMO.

In a way I too was disappointed by how the battles were depicted, not because I need to see all the action but because tension was not maintained enough for my liking. There might've been a way to do that without showing the battles. For example if we had seen Cat earlier in the episode straining to see the action, just waiting for Robb, and cutting away with her not knowing, it might've had more impact to see her returning to the screen, still waiting, and then Robb rides out and finally she can breathe again, etc. I dunno, basically I liked the parts of this episode but I do wish they had been assembled a little differently.

Ned's death was all in all very well done, Aemon's reveal also pretty good, the Lannister and Stark war camps each rewarding, and while I have to think more before I know how I feel about Shae, for now I'm intrigued at how HBO's take on the character will influence Tyrion's arc.

I'm really looking forward to the finale, especially when Cat punches the living crap out of Jaime *fans self*

[The Sand Snake]

IMO they finally messed something up. Amd that "thing" is Shae. THe woman playing her is horrrrrrrrible. ANd is that a Russian accent or something? Not a huge part of the series I guess but man i felt like they got all the characters perfectly cast and then she pops up. I wish theyd change her

[Grack21]

IMO they finally messed something up. Amd that "thing" is Shae. THe woman playing her is horrrrrrrrible. ANd is that a Russian accent or something? Not a huge part of the series I guess but man i felt like they got all the characters perfectly cast and then she pops up. I wish theyd change her

German. And the story is the producers/GRRM liked her enough for the part that they added the accent so she could play shae.

[Spring Bass]

1. I think the whole MMD scene in the tent, with the spell, was actually better than the book's description. You're watching it and suddenly, "WTF?! What are those sounds?"

2. To be honest, I'm liking the whole scene with the Westerosi version of "I Never" more and more. Mostly because of how it portrays Tyrion and Shae (although we do find out that Bronn has been north of the Wall, meaning that he was probably a wildling or successful deserter from the Night's Watch*). Shae keeps Tyrion at a certain degree of arm's length, and we get to see Tyrion's creeping delusions in action**. You can just tell that he really, really wants it to be real - for them all to be buddies joking around, camraderie, etc. But it isn't, and we see it in Bronn and Shae's discomfort with the whole thing. They're not his friends - they're his employees, and as soon as his gold runs out, so will they.

* Assuming that he didn't just lie.

** Speaking of which, I reiterate that the show captured what Tyrion wanted from Shae. He didn't just want sex. He wanted a Fantasy Girlfriend, and his inability to tell fantasy from truth in that regard becomes rather sad as the story develops.

[Myrish swan]

1, I don't remember Shae being such a bitch. And 2, show-Tyrion doesn't pay his gold for Tysha?!?! That's a pretty big change to that story...

Shae is PURE EVIL, if you believe the people who are constantly insisting that the bitch got what she deserved (98 percent of the readership.)

Anyway, I thought the actress playing Shae was totally awesome. And I love Shae the character, thus far. And rather than being creepy and controlling and insecure, like he is with her in the books, Tyrion is sweet and adorable. I'm not sure... a few little changes seem to make a huge difference.

Anyway, the Tyrion I knew I liked from the first 7 episodes was back again tonight... in episode 8, he seemed to denigrate to the unessesarily mean, superior and arrogant Tyrion of the books. But tonight he was back to being sweet and adorable and nice again. He was so cute with Shae and Bronn.

Anyway, the overall episode for me felt kind of slow at first, especially the scenes featuring Jon at the wall. Jon's conversation with Maester Aemon was not something that translated too well from the books, imo. In the books, we'd been hearing all about the fall of Aerys and the shocking murder of the Targ kids for what felt like the whole book. So then it was a huge revelation to learn that Maester Aemon was a Targ. Here it was just like... "well, okay, old dude, so you're related to the mad king. I kinda got a whiff of that family insanity six episodes back when you were having a conniption fit over the white walkers and "winter is coming," etc. Whatever." Not as much of an impact.

But things got a lot better toward the halfway point. And the ending was stunning... the way they did that scene was amazing. Though she's gotten a lot of flack for not being a good enough actress, I thought Sophie Turner was amazing in this scene.

Other thoughts:

Walder Frey was a bit of a dissapointment... dude looked 65, not 90! Though I did get the full impact of his creepiness seeing him fondling his 15 year old wife like that. :stillsick:

Why was Robb such a brat about having to marry a Frey girl? I didn't remember him being so immature in the books. (Maybe I'm mistaken, since its been a while since I've read that part...but the only one I remember freaking out and whining about having to marry a Frey girl was Edmure.) Honestly, whom did Robb expect to marry? Some girl he fell in love with? As the eldest son of one of the most important families in the realm, of course he's going to be marrying for politics. So what was with his apparent reluctance/ anger? I didn't really get that.

[The Sand Snake]

German. And the story is the producers/GRRM liked her enough for the part that they added the accent so she could play shae.

Either way I think they changed wayyy to much about her to be Shae. Maybe they just shouldve changed the whole characters name. The actress doesnt even seem to be good to me. She hot I guess, but thats it. and the accent kills it for me. I wish there would be public outrage about this and theyd change her. My Gf finished GoT like a day ago and right away called out the Shae actress. This girl is nothing like Shae

[Lady Blackfish]

In the books, we'd been hearing all about the fall of Aerys and the shocking murder of the Targ kids for what felt like the whole book. So then it was a huge revelation to learn that Maester Aemon was a Targ.

Agree, it was one of those moments where I liked it because I had read the books. That's one loss that has come with not playing up the backstory before this point in time.

[Grack21]

Heh, I believe he said his new wife was 15, which ups the creep factor even more.

As for the whole Shae thing, I guess the women playing her is an award winning Turkish-German actress, which is maybe why the felt the need to throw the foreign bit in there? I guess we'll see how it plays out. I think people are to quick to leap to judgments after maybe 4 minutes of screen time.

And I think (still) that people need to calm down over the battles being skipped. I understand how it pissed some people off, but the stuff flying around about how backwater is "obviously going to suck" or :be skipped" is just dumb. GRRM is writing the damn thing as we speak! And no, I don't think the producers have the power to just cut his whole episode.

[brian_177]

I really enjoyed Aemon's conversation with Jon.

In the book I didn't get the sense that Aemon was recalling what happened with anger, but I really liked that he gave in to his emotion, even if just for a moment.

I also liked the scene with Shae, Bronn, and Tyrion drinking. I LOVED the look on Bronn's face when Tyrion said "Look how much fun we're having." Really funny.

Some people have complained that they're not being true to Bronn's character. Since we've all read the books, we know that Tyrion always tried to keep his relationships with both Bronn and Shae in perspective, but was also know that he often forgot (certainly more with Shae than with Bronn.) However, the TV show can't just throw the script into italics and have Tyrion tell us all what he's thinking, as we see often in the books. I thinkt he show will make up for this by having scenes like this, where we warm to both Shae and Bronn (not always together in the same scene, obviously), but often they will throw in a line or two that reminds us what the real dynamic is in those relationships. Bronn mentions he was north of the Wall for work. Not intrique, not friendship, but work. He's a sellsword, and that's why he's drinking with Tyrion, because Tyrion signs his paychecks.

And really, even if they never again mention that Shae is a whore and have us all fall in love with her, or if they make Bronn out to be Tyrion's closest friend, all that will do is make their betrayal of Tyrion that much more appetizing.

[Eponine]

I didn't want this episode to end- as soon as Arya showed up with the pigeon, I was sad knowing what was going to happen. The last scenes played out perfectly and every actor did a great job - so many things going on - Joffery being repugnant, Varys rushing over, Cersei caught by surprise, and loved that Sansa had to be held back instead of falling to her knees which IIRC was what she did in the book. Good change with Yoren.

Was more sold on the Dothraki this episode than any other, largely thanks to the bloodrider asserting himself (and perhaps not wrongly, because turns out he was right about the whole blood magic thing and it was his entire job to protect Drogo). But I was confused about the poltice and MMDs role in Drogo's wound festering. I mean, I know what the book says, but am not sure what I was supposed to infer from the show.

Walder Frey +1 for perviness. Although he didn't look 90, I think he got the essence of the character perfectly.

Did not like how Tyrion got turned into cheap comic relief instead of being part of the battle. No need to show the battle and drive up costs- we already knew that the battle was underway, and this is where the switch between POVs should be advantageous. Could have done a scene where Bronn fights 2-3 other men, Tyrion gets a few stabs in without being a fighting machine, end scene, next time we see Tyrion the battle is over. We could have just as easily interpolated the rest of the battle that we didn't see without making Tyrion a buffoon.

Hated Shae. Tyrion is not looking for mystery or intelligence, he wants to fool himself into believing that he's loved. The genius of using his POV in the book is that it lets the reader be seduced along with him, making his betrayal shocking but the way he's objectified her come into focus at the same time. But mostly i just dont like her and found her grating and not likable, so it's hard for me to see why Tyrion would fall so hard for her. While she's pretty, she's not notably hotter or sexier than Ros or the whores Tyrion was with in Winterfell either, IMO. I wanted to see someone who was convincing in acting like she loved Tyrion while showing the audience little glimpses of boredom or apathy. This Shae just flat out doesn't seem to have chemistry with Tyrion.

[brokor]

Am i the only one who reading the books thought shae was a plain farmer girl turned whore, giddy and lively that acts like a young girl, excitable that has seen very little in life and tyrion offers her a whole new world?

the actress that played shae made her look like a professional whore raised in a pleasure house in Lys that knows how to separate business from pleasure and more of an escort than a lowly whore.

i mean shae does it all for the money ofc but she gets entangled unto tyrion's life. so far in the series shae looks like a cold bitch that gives a fuck for coin and thats it.

hate it.

[Stubby]

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[straphe]

And I think (still) that people need to calm down over the battles being skipped. I understand how it pissed some people off, but the stuff flying around about how backwater is "obviously going to suck" or :be skipped" is just dumb. GRRM is writing the damn thing as we speak! And no, I don't think the producers have the power to just cut his whole episode.

And I think those defending the battle scenes with their life need to calm down. :D I'm not angry or anything, I still love the show, with its lack of battles and anything; I just simply wrote what I feel. Then I got shot down, rather brutally, by a troll. Are trolls even allowed to roam the topics of the forum?

[Myrish swan]

She reacted similarly surprised and freaked out at his sudden change of heart in the book, definitely. The scene and her reaction were spot on.

Yeah, Cersei was pretty smart... pre AFFC lobotomy/ prophecy plot device trainwreck. :bang:

[Grack21]

And I think those defending the battle scenes with their life need to calm down. :D I'm not angry or anything, I still love the show, with its lack of battles and anything; I just simply wrote what I feel. Then I got shot down, rather brutally, by a troll. Are trolls even allowed to roam the topics of the forum?

Oh no, I'm not pointing at you specifically, IN fact I was thinking of something in another topic. Some people seem to be taking the battle skipping as some sigh of DOOM. Like in the next episode they're gonna add vampires and robots or something.

And trolls are everywhere. Like dust mites.