'Liberal' in America

[mcbigski]

mcbigski - Your fetus comment was pretty hateful. There's your example.

Hateful towards whom? The language was non euphemistic, but accurate. Hateful towards fetuses? Hateful towards people who think women should have a right to kill a fetus in their own womb (As I do myself)? Confronting the issue directly might make people uncomfortable, but how is that hate?

As I already pointed out, the '08 and '10 election threads have been eaten by the board. If I could magically unerase those threads I could show the hateful tea party rhetoric you attempted to spew and support. Since they have been, I can't. I can only point out to anyone who's been paying attention the last few years that you have again and again demonstrated that you're a hateful person.

Dude, the Tea Party wasn't even around in '08. Love to see some examples of their hateful rhetoric from that election. You're obviously living in a hateful phantasy world of your own...

It's okay. I'm hateful too. I fucking hate the far right of the political spectrum. I think those on the far right are horrible people trying to destroy this country for their own petty, irresponsible gains... which is very sad, because it's not even their own gains... they just think it is because they're told so by their favorite radio personality.

And admitting it is the first step towards recovery.

As much as I'm sure you wish I was an adherent to that site, I'm not. I've never been there in my life. These opinions I have - this may seem very unnatural to you - I came around to them through my own means. I read the news and I develop my own opinion through that news. Not through a blog.

I didn't mean to imply that you necessarily have. Reread what I wrote. Just because someone on DU who is a total asshole makes an argument that you also use, doesn't, in and of itself, make you an asshole too. Likewise, when you talk about the Tea Party hateful rhetoric without ever being specific, and I, who have never been to a Tea Party rally, signed a petition, dontated money,or been active with their organization in any way, start talking about limited government, you shouldn't be making the leap that I'm automatically a hateful person because someone who self affilates as a Tea Partier, somewhere might have said something you think is beyond the pale. Not sure why you think the Tea Party is hateful anyway, other than your insular news sources tell you so. The only minority who ever got beat up at a Tea Party event was Ken Gladney. Unless you can make the case that limited government, lower taxes, and smaller debt are hateful ipso facto.

Not through Rush Limbaugh, who I've shown in the past that you take your opinion directly from. No joking there. I've literally shown that certain posts of yours are direct talking points spewed by Limbaugh. Direct. This isn't exaggeration. I spent weeks listening to him on my lunch break, trying to understand the nonsense he espouses and failing - because he is nothing but a far right ideologue, and I've heard you regurgitate his talking points verbatim.

Rush Limbaugh is as hateful a human being as one can get without taking the life of another. You've not only regurgitated his views but defended them heartily.

You obviously listen to Rush Limbaugh more than I do. So I'll have to take your word for this one, I suppose. Since you've 'literally' shown it, we all just have to take your word.

Thank though AP, for ably demonstrating the tactic of personal attacks instead of reasoned discussion. There wasn't a single thing I can recall about why my positions are wrong, just that I'm hateful, everyone who believes what I believe is also hateful, and, oh yes, I'm hateful. Very broad worldview there.

[Swordfish]

Do you vote for her? Defend her arguments in public?

No. But I associated with her quite a lot when she was alive, and I certainly loved her more than just about anyone on earth. And had she run for office, i would have most assuredly given her my vote.

I'm just saying that it's possible to have ideas/opinions that are terribly misguided without being hateful, stubborn nor ignorant in general. Far from it. She was kind, loving toward everyone and generous.

Something to consider.

[Galactus]

No. But I associated with her quite a lot when she was alive, and I certainly loved her more than just about anyone on earth. And had she run for office, i would have most assuredly given her my vote.

I'm just saying that it's possible to have ideas/opinions that are terribly misguided without being hateful, stubborn nor ignorant in general. Far from it. She was kind, loving toward everyone and generous.

Something to consider.

No, it really isn't. It's possible she wasn't hateful, but she can'tbe both non-hateful, non-stubborn and non-ignorant and still hold those opinions. (that is, she might be genuinely mistaken or ill-informed, eg. ignorant, she might genuinely feel that homosxuals are inferior, eg. hateful or she might know she is wrong but stick to her opinions because that's what she's always don, eg. stubborn)

Assuming your descrition is correct I'd bank on ignorant.

EDIT: The fact that the opinions are misguided, your words, not mine, implies ignorance.

[Galactus]

Double post

[Swordfish]

No, it really isn't. It's possible she wasn't hateful, but she can'tbe both non-hateful, non-stubborn and non-ignorant and still hold those opinions. (that is, she might be genuinely mistaken or ill-informed, eg. ignorant, she might genuinely feel that homosxuals are inferior, eg. hateful or she might know she is wrong but stick to her opinions because that's what she's always don, eg. stubborn)

Assuming your descrition is correct I'd bank on ignorant.

There's a difference between holding a view/opinion that is ignorant, and being an ignorant person though.

So yes. it really is.

[Shryke]

There's a difference between holding a view/opinion that is ignorant, and being an ignorant person though.

So yes. it really is.

Wait, what's the definition of "ignorant person" then?

[Galactus]

There's a difference between holding a view/opinion that is ignorant, and being an ignorant person though.

So yes. it really is.

If you're ignorant on a subject that maks you an ignorant person with regards to said subject.

[Lord of Oop North]

Your grandmother hated homosexuals, get over it.

[Swordfish]

If you're ignorant on a subject that maks you an ignorant person with regards to said subject.

Of course. And I agree that that's an issue, particularly in regards to issues like this that have serious real world negative impacts on a lot of peoples lives.

But I think that your qualifier is also important. Because she was not, on the whole, an ignorant hateful person. Quite the opposite.

Although i will concede that she was also quite stubborn. In most cases it was a good quality though. She was a union organizer, a life long liberal democrat, and a divorced single roman catholic mom who went to church every day. I daresay you would've probably loved and respected her despite how wrong she was on the issue of gay marriage. ;)

Your grandmother hated homosexuals, get over it.

Yeah, but she made a mean apple pie, and she loved baseball and Notre Dame. AMURIKA!!!! Hell yeah!

[Lord of Oop North]

Yeah, but she made a mean apple pie, and she loved baseball and Notre Dame. AMURIKA!!!! Hell yeah!

:lol: OK. A good pie can make me overlook a lot of faults

[Snowy89]

Yeah, but she made a mean apple pie, and she loved baseball and Notre Dame. AMURIKA!!!! Hell yeah!

She's still trash.

[Swordfish]

:lol: OK. A good pie can make me overlook a lot of faults

INOERITE?

[Swordfish]

You implied the left somehow enjoys abortion which is absurd. The vast majority of those who technically happen to be pro choice realize that it's a complicated matter. It's not like people are all "Pro Choice! Fuck Yeah!" To imply that people somehow revel in the notion of abortion is an attempt to demonize you political opponents.

But what if the abortion clinic is serving free pie?

[Shryke]

But what if the abortion clinic is serving free pie?

Given the materials on hand, I wouldn't eat the pie.

But maybe that's just me.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

She's still trash.

It's never cool to call someone's relatives trash.

[wolfeyes]

My grandmothers did not believe whites should marry blacks or Hispanics, protestants shouldn't marry catholics, they were both very loving grandmothers. However, it does not mean that they were not wrong in there prejudice. I doubt either would even acknowledge the existence of homosexuals then or today if they were alive. Each generation has an obligation to divorce itself from falicies of the past learn grow and become better to their fellow man. This includes the social programs needed to service in Todays world. To me, that's the general ideal if the modern American progressive liberal. It's why I believe the founding fathers made the constitution flexible. It's the conservative money right that resists these changes as it affects their new aristocracy.

[Sivin]

Hey guys. I'm an Australian who is completing a Law/Arts degree. As part of my degree i have done a political theory subject and also a global politics subject that had an emphasis on the politics of the USA and oh do i find American politics fascinating.

Now i am very curious about something. Apparently being described as a 'liberal' in America is like calling someone something terrible because it is a dirty word. My question is, why is that? Why would you describe liberals in a negative light?

From my understanding of liberalism the ideology has 2 fundamental characteristics. Firstly, that everyone should be free from government oppression (Locke). Secondly, that everyone is rational and self-interested which motivates their choices in life. Finally, this leads to the emphasis on free markets and limited government, which, as i understand, are the two main aspects of Irving Kristol's neoconservitism.

To an outside observer, liberal ideology would appear to align with the Republican Party's ideology of free markets, and limited government as everyone is self-interested. Perhaps i have made mistakes in my analysis. But if the Republican ideology is so akin to liberal ideology, why is it so bade to claim to be a liberal? Why is it a dirty word?

In Australia, our Liberal Party is the conservative party and emphasises fiscal surplus, low taxes, deregulation etc etc etc. It so reminds me of the economic beliefs of the Republican Party. So please enlighten me why being liberal is a bad thing in America.

Thanks in advance!

Sorry I'm late to the thread, but I try to stay out of these things.

My political alignment is Liberal-Independent.(For the record)

The reason it's such a dirty word here in the states is simple: The backwards-ass folk can't see past Abortion, and are so scared of Communism that the thought of giving healthcare to people who can't afford it makes them start calling the President a Nazi.

Yeah, the education here isn't so good when people accuse the President of being a Communist, a Socialist, and a Fascist in the same sentence. Especially when they aren't pointing out the obvious similarities in the three ideologies. The only similarity they are interested is Totalitarianism, which isn't even a part of being a Socialist. Not to mention that it's a ridiculous statement to make about the current government in any event... :bang:

Sorry, this topic gets me a little worked-up.

[TrueMetis]

It's never cool to call someone's relatives trash.

I disagree but in this case it's going to far.

[Snowy89]

It's never cool to call someone's relatives trash.

The truth's the truth, better deal with it like a man!

I disagree but in this case it's going to far.

Nah, had I said she deserved to be euthanized for that, THAT would have been going to far(and completely unrelated at that).

I mean, I have familymembers that are trash and I readily acknowledge that, I can't help it they're born into my family. just as he can't help he's born into his family. (If he could, well that would be interesting :D ).

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

The truth's the truth, better deal with it like a man!

That's a meaningless statement. Plus, your comment's sexist.