[ADwD Spoilers] Is Jon handsome?

[Lady Winter Rose]

Double post.

[Lady Winter Rose]

You'd think he'd be handsome if R+L=J is true, but Ned was average and Catelyn was very pretty at least yet they spawned Sansa who is undeniably beautiful it seems. If you want to nitpick about genetics and if if R+L=J is true, then why doesn't Jon have silver hair?

If you want to nitpicking about genetics and if Catelyn + Ned = Arya and Robb is true, then why Robb don't have brown hair and Arya auburn hair?

[hiraeth]

Bumping this thread with delight :D

Since I saw many of you has vague idea about what a -long face- is,I think I can provide with bit of a clarification.

Long faces are elegant,by default,regardless of attractiveness. And in my culture,and overall continental Europe,long faces are connected to 'lordlings' :) (think Sirius Black)

So,I can see both Jon and Arya blossoming. Children are beautiful with round faces,big eyes and pouty lips - other type of facial features need time,indeed,growing into beauty.

Lyanna is a beauty,in full sense,made unsurpassable by her nature,but rest assured that her appearance is gorgeous. And being complimented as -wild beauty- is something that can hardly be matched. Also,I feel that -conventional beauty- isn't a compliment at all. Cersei being a sun... That is very good description,having in mind her golden locks,it is comparison based on similarity.

As for the Jon's appearance,I have been searching for the hints of him being tall,but to no avail :D Lean,graceful : that's very promising. Somehow,height should be there,you know,papa Rhaegar's genes :D Not to mention scars! (remember Tenna Merryweather's description of a fine man)

Targaryen's silver hair and purple,violet eyes are considered beautiful,and in this light I understand Tyrion's description of Young Griff : there is so much in the fame that surrounds the person. And Jon is,on the other hand,a bastard.

Tullys have height,broad shoulders,deep blue eyes,and auburn hair,fair in complexion,high cheekbones : it is attractive. A Tully is certainly different than a Dornish,but is it more beautiful? (let's remember Sansa's opinion on Ellaria,very southron opinion,where even idea of beauty is within social expectancies and norms: "Ellaria is not truly beautiful" meaning "Ellaria is not like me,or any other high born lady") Margaery is probably in stronger shades of loveliness,and Asha is sexy.

Regarding Daenerys and Jon : the potential hook up - I don't quite grasp how can you tell that Daenerys has "a type". Really? She grew into love with Drogo,and Drogo was not a man of fleeting impression,all the masculine attributes are there! She can not have a type when she doesn't have a choice,and she is very romantic and impressionable,and most of all - so hungry for love!! (can't you see her thinking to herself,"if Rhaegar had his northwoman,why can't I have my northman") and I think that Jon is very much impressive,which would call her attention.

About Daario... Don't you remember her first thought about him? "And he has blue eyes" And in the next chapter she muses how they appear violet. Don't you see,she is in love with a fantasy!!! (and she is concerned with prophecy and thinking there will be only two men she could trust and add Daario's 'violet' eyes in that trail of reasoning,you can see where the attraction lies) Of course,he is confident,easy to smile... That is swoon-worthy. She has strong sex drive and you can not hold against her the attraction that is sex-driven. And we have our lord's kiss boy... :D Jon could be well high sexed,just in control. Still,we can not speak of "Dany's type of men".

If R+L=J is true,I can see Martin being deliberately vague. (for both mystery and depicting Jon's social status' sake) For indeed,one would never look at a bastard. (which is something that doesn't matter with Wildings). Jon's parents are gorgeous,and he can not be far from them,but it is too much to just lay it out there. (on a related note,I think I can remember Catelyn saying Jon is comely... Can anyone recall the same?)

Starks have enviable traits,and good looks do run in the family ;)

Well, I was reading an article the other day about the haplogroups - and the descriptions of the racial types and sub-types of the Serbs... And, a peculiar thing happened - as I was reading about the characteristics of the Dinaric sub-type (Serbia, BiH, Montenegro, Croatia, Austria, parts of Germany, the most predominant in the Dinaric Alps in Montenegro and Herzegovina), I thing occurred to me - the picture I had in my mind was of Ned Stark and Jon Snow (not from the series, obviosly): maybe my special partialness towards the Starks and the North has something to do with the fact that we share looks and many psychological traits - maybe some of the posters here will remember the descriptions of the Dinaroids: tall, strong, long faces, brooding, melancholic, mostly brown haired, patriarchal, with chiseled faces... The texts went on to describe the strong morality of the Dinaric people and another thing - comments of the foreigners who met them for the first time in 18th and 19th century - all of them commented on the beauty of the Dinaric people - they are among the tallest in Europe, with long faces, prominent noses and prominent chins - one of the best representatives of the racial types are Nikola Tesla, a Serb from Lika and Petar Petrovic Njegos from Montenegro and, of course, Novak Djokovic, maybe you can google them... The description of the Starks reminds me terribly of the Dinaric type, who I don't find attractive in the Hollywood, baby-faced fashion, but the representatives of the Dinaric race definately have that "something" - tall, strong, lots of character, prominent nose and chin, long face, dark, brooding - Ned Stark, Jon Snow...

This is how I imagine the Stark kings of old:

http://en.wikipedia....ušan_of_Serbia

http://en.wikipedia....lutin_of_Serbia

http://orthodoxwiki.org/File:Constantine_XI_Palaiologos.jpg

[ARYa_Nym]

It was brought to my attention in another thread but Shireen blushed when Jon first spoke to her. Either she's shy or she has a crush on him.

[King Aerys the Just]

Well, I was reading an article the other day about the haplogroups - and the descriptions of the racial types and sub-types of the Serbs... And, a peculiar thing happened - as I was reading about the characteristics of the Dinaric sub-type (Serbia, BiH, Montenegro, Croatia, Austria, parts of Germany, the most predominant in the Dinaric Alps in Montenegro and Herzegovina), I thing occurred to me - the picture I had in my mind was of Ned Stark and Jon Snow (not from the series, obviosly): maybe my special partialness towards the Starks and the North has something to do with the fact that we share looks and many psychological traits - maybe some of the posters here will remember the descriptions of the Dinaroids: tall, strong, long faces, brooding, melancholic, mostly brown haired, patriarchal, with chiseled faces... The texts went on to describe the strong morality of the Dinaric people and another thing - comments of the foreigners who met them for the first time in 18th and 19th century - all of them commented on the beauty of the Dinaric people - they are among the tallest in Europe, with long faces, prominent noses and prominent chins - one of the best representatives of the racial types are Nikola Tesla, a Serb from Lika and Petar Petrovic Njegos from Montenegro and, of course, Novak Djokovic, maybe you can google them... The description of the Starks reminds me terribly of the Dinaric type, who I don't find attractive in the Hollywood, baby-faced fashion, but the representatives of the Dinaric race definately have that "something" - tall, strong, lots of character, prominent nose and chin, long face, dark, brooding - Ned Stark, Jon Snow...

This is how I imagine the Stark kings of old:

http://en.wikipedia....ušan_of_Serbia

http://en.wikipedia....lutin_of_Serbia

http://orthodoxwiki....Palaiologos.jpg

Really? I would put the Serbians closer to the Baratheons personally, if we are doing ethnic parallells. Big and tall, dark, and with a violent macho culture.

Northmen (and Starks) have always been Scots for me. The cultural and historical similarities are so obvious that the looks come with as well.

[Davos' fingertip]

judging by how Ygritte acted around him and the other wildlings talked about Ygritte having a crush on him, he does seem to be good looking. If he is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, it would make sense for him to be.

[hiraeth]

Really? I would put the Serbians closer to the Baratheons personally, if we are doing ethnic parallells. Big and tall, dark, and with a violent macho culture.

Northmen (and Starks) have always been Scots for me. The cultural and historical similarities are so obvious that the looks come with as well.

Do you know anything about the Serbian macho culture at all :cool4: ? Everybody has the right to think of the Starks (or the Baratheons for that matter) anyway he/she likes... It's only natural to think of the characters in literature in terms of proximity and similarity... I can't picture the Starks as the Scots, because the prevailing stereotype regarding them is tall, handsome and redheaded... More like the Tullys IMHO...

[Bushido]

Well, I was reading an article the other day about the haplogroups - and the descriptions of the racial types and sub-types of the Serbs... And, a peculiar thing happened - as I was reading about the characteristics of the Dinaric sub-type (Serbia, BiH, Montenegro, Croatia, Austria, parts of Germany, the most predominant in the Dinaric Alps in Montenegro and Herzegovina), I thing occurred to me - the picture I had in my mind was of Ned Stark and Jon Snow (not from the series, obviosly): maybe my special partialness towards the Starks and the North has something to do with the fact that we share looks and many psychological traits - maybe some of the posters here will remember the descriptions of the Dinaroids: tall, strong, long faces, brooding, melancholic, mostly brown haired, patriarchal, with chiseled faces... The texts went on to describe the strong morality of the Dinaric people and another thing - comments of the foreigners who met them for the first time in 18th and 19th century - all of them commented on the beauty of the Dinaric people - they are among the tallest in Europe, with long faces, prominent noses and prominent chins - one of the best representatives of the racial types are Nikola Tesla, a Serb from Lika and Petar Petrovic Njegos from Montenegro and, of course, Novak Djokovic, maybe you can google them... The description of the Starks reminds me terribly of the Dinaric type, who I don't find attractive in the Hollywood, baby-faced fashion, but the representatives of the Dinaric race definately have that "something" - tall, strong, lots of character, prominent nose and chin, long face, dark, brooding - Ned Stark, Jon Snow...

This is how I imagine the Stark kings of old:

http://en.wikipedia....ušan_of_Serbia

http://en.wikipedia....lutin_of_Serbia

http://orthodoxwiki.org/File:Constantine_XI_Palaiologos.jpg

Yes,that's what I had in mind,just didn't want to confuse people further ;)

Njegos is hot,btw ;)

[hiraeth]

Yes,that's what I had in mind,just didn't want to confuse people further ;)

Njegos is hot,btw ;)

Thanks, he is said to have been the hottest Serb ever, although my personal favourite is Emperor Dusan :cheers: ...

[Bushido]

Thanks, he is said to have been the hottest Serb ever, although my personal favourite is Emperor Dusan :cheers: ...

Oh,I thought he was Montenegrin!

Still,handsome man :)

[hiraeth]

Oh,I thought he was Montenegrin!

Still,handsome man :)

Sorry everyone, not re:topic - it's a political matter these days... He was a Serb from Montenegro...

[King Aerys the Just]

Do you know anything about the Serbian macho culture at all :cool4: ? Everybody has the right to think of the Starks (or the Baratheons for that matter) anyway he/she likes... It's only natural to think of the characters in literature in terms of proximity and similarity... I can't picture the Starks as the Scots, because the prevailing stereotype regarding them is tall, handsome and redheaded... More like the Tullys IMHO...

Well, I have met enough Serbians to get an impression :P

Yeah, I meant more in the context of the story. The Starks are heavily based on the Yorks during the Wars of the Roses in England, while the Lannisters are the Lancasters. They are then described as fighting in a way very similiar to how the Scots did (lots of pikemen in Schiltroms instead of knights), have highland clans up in the Mountains with kilts and claymores, have a celtic-inspired religion etc. etc.

So I just took it for granted that they would look like them as well. In the same way I imagine the Dornish looking like Spaniards, Dothraki like Turks, and Ghiscari like Greeks. But each person to his own, as you yourself said. Most peoples George has made up are also mixed with influences from several real world cultures, so I don't think there's any real clear answers. The Valyrians as an extreme example sound like some sort of Aryans with exaggerated magical looks, while the Naathi also don't compare with any real nation. So yeah.

But as to the topic I believe Jon is definately good looking. Most of the women he has met (who haven't been hostile to him due to his order) have tried hitting on him after all.

[Chaircat Meow]

Yeah, I meant more in the context of the story. The Starks are heavily based on the Yorks during the Wars of the Roses in England, while the Lannisters are the Lancasters. They are then described as fighting in a way very similiar to how the Scots did (lots of pikemen in Schiltroms instead of knights), have highland clans up in the Mountains with kilts and claymores, have a celtic-inspired religion etc. etc.

How can the Starks be based on the Scots if you admit they are based on an English noble line, i.e. the Yorkists. The Yorkist patriarch, Richard Plantagenet is a grandson of king Edward III and held land in England and Ireland. As far as I'm aware he had jack shit to do with Scotland.

Moreover, they are described as having knights, as well as pikemen and Scotland didn't have a celtic inspired religion at the time of the Wars of the Roses because they were Christians.

Where are kilts ever mentioned?

So I just took it for granted that they would look like them as well.

But it says what they look like, long faces, grey eyes and brown hair. There's nothing distinctly 'scottish' about that. If anything, the Tullys look scottish, but I don't really think the scots look different to the English anyway, saving that they are perhaps a bit more likely to have red hair.

[King Aerys the Just]

How can the Starks be based on the Scots if you admit they are based on an English noble line, i.e. the Yorkists. The Yorkist patriarch, Richard Plantagenet is a grandson of king Edward III and held land in England and Ireland. As far as I'm aware he had jack shit to do with Scotland.

Moreover, they are described as having knights, as well as pikemen and Scotland didn't have a celtic inspired religion at the time of the Wars of the Roses because they were Christians.

Where are kilts ever mentioned?

But it says what they look like, long faces, grey eyes and brown hair. There's nothing distinctly 'scottish' about that. If anything, the Tullys look scottish, but I don't really think the scots look different to the English anyway, saving that they are perhaps a bit more likely to have red hair.

Because, as I said before, no single culture GRRM has made (at least not any of the important ones) is a complete carbon copy of a real people. They do however, have more and less significant levels of influences.

The North is basically Scotland post the anglo saxon (andal) invasion of Britain mixed with northern medieval England. In the same way as Ghis is a mix between classical and byzantine Greece, with certain Middle Eastern architechture and some "red black hair" that isn't characteristic for any real people.

But I should have been more clear regarding the northern looks, when I said more scottish I mean that more in the sense of "indigenous british" rather than the red haired stereotype. The English are after all an germanic people in origin, though they are of course mixed up with the other brits now, and they with them, than they'd have been a thousand years ago or so. I remember reading a text about how English and Norse could actually understand each others' languages when the latter invaded. So the other more native british ethnicities would have been closer to French and Spaniards in look than Germans, long ago. Basically I imagine the Starks as looking more like this actor http://2.bp.blogspot...666_600_826.jpg than this http://www.turkcealt...an-65f2100c.jpg Even though both of them are british.

As for the Mountain Clans wearing kilts I'm sure I read that somewhere in ADWD, I'll look it up later.

But It's not like it matters anyway, since there has likely never been a completely uniform look amongst any people, but I started this discussion when hiraeth said that he/she imagined the Starks as dinarid (basically southeastern european,like this http://www.geocities...ead/Dinaric.jpg if old race-science is anything to go by...) and I said that I imagined them as more Scottish because of the cultural similarities.

[Chaircat Meow]

Because, as I said before, no single culture GRRM has made (at least not any of the important ones) is a complete carbon copy of a real people. They do however, have more and less significant levels of influences.

The North is basically Scotland post the anglo saxon (andal) invasion of Britain mixed with northern medieval England. In the same way as Ghis is a mix between classical and byzantine Greece, with certain Middle Eastern architechture and some "red black hair" that isn't characteristic for any real people.

Meh, I think the similarities are geographical and linguistic not cultural, but whatever.

But I should have been more clear regarding the northern looks, when I said more scottish I mean that more in the sense of "indigenous british" rather than the red haired stereotype. The English are after all an germanic people in origin, though they are of course mixed up with the other brits now, and they with them, than they'd have been a thousand years ago or so. I remember reading a text about how English and Norse could actually understand each others' languages when the latter invaded. So the other more native british ethnicities would have been closer to French and Spaniards in look than Germans, long ago. Basically imagine the Starks as looking more like this actor http://2.bp.blogspot...666_600_826.jpg than this http://www.turkcealt...an-65f2100c.jpg Even though both of them are british.

Well I agree. But why does Ioan whathisname have a more 'indigenous British' look than Sean Bean. I'm British and I've never noticed these kinds of differences.

[King Aerys the Just]

Because the Brits before the anglo-saxons would probably have been mostly R1b in Y-DNA (the one you inherit from you father's cromosome). Haplogroup I1, which comes from Scandinavia/northern Germany , is still significantly more common in England than it is in the rest of Britain (especially Wales) as you can see here http://upload.wikime...aplogroup_I.png Ignore the ones near the Balkans, they are of type I2 and not relevant here.

So it can be seen that the invading made quite a bit of genetic impact on Britain, especially England. Now Britain is probably so mixed up that the regional differences in looks are quite small. But since the ancestral genetic differences are still present after all this time, they were probably much greater in the past. So the Brits looking like Germans/Scandinavians would have likely been how the English looked in the past, while Brits looking more like French and Spanish (where, including Britain, haplogroup R1b is the most common) would likely have been how Welsh, Scots and Irish used to look. The two latter before the Viking invasions, at least. Ioan looks more like that than Sean Bean, that was what I meant by my examples. Now I agree that they can all be regarded as natives, since it all happened so long ago. But technically the "lighter" Brits are probably of more nordic heritage than indigenous.

[hiraeth]

Because, as I said before, no single culture GRRM has made (at least not any of the important ones) is a complete carbon copy of a real people. They do however, have more and less significant levels of influences.

The North is basically Scotland post the anglo saxon (andal) invasion of Britain mixed with northern medieval England. In the same way as Ghis is a mix between classical and byzantine Greece, with certain Middle Eastern architechture and some "red black hair" that isn't characteristic for any real people.

But I should have been more clear regarding the northern looks, when I said more scottish I mean that more in the sense of "indigenous british" rather than the red haired stereotype. The English are after all an germanic people in origin, though they are of course mixed up with the other brits now, and they with them, than they'd have been a thousand years ago or so. I remember reading a text about how English and Norse could actually understand each others' languages when the latter invaded. So the other more native british ethnicities would have been closer to French and Spaniards in look than Germans, long ago. Basically I imagine the Starks as looking more like this actor http://2.bp.blogspot...666_600_826.jpg than this http://www.turkcealt...an-65f2100c.jpg Even though both of them are british.

As for the Mountain Clans wearing kilts I'm sure I read that somewhere in ADWD, I'll look it up later.

But It's not like it matters anyway, since there has likely never been a completely uniform look amongst any people, but I started this discussion when hiraeth said that he/she imagined the Starks as dinarid (basically southeastern european,like this http://www.geocities...ead/Dinaric.jpg if old race-science is anything to go by...) and I said that I imagined them as more Scottish because of the cultural similarities.

This picture reminds me more of a Turkish, Arabic or a Mediterranean guy than a real Dinaric person, the skin is too olive-coloured and the features are just too sharp... Ioan Gruffudd looks a lot like a real-life Dinaric person, I am just not sure about his height... Oh, and meeting a few representatives of a nation does not mean you know them all - it is not a good idea to generalise :cool4: ...

[dreamcatcher]

This picture reminds me more of a Turkish, Arabic or a Mediterranean guy than a real Dinaric person, the skin is too olive-coloured and the features are just too sharp... Ioan Gruffudd looks a lot like a real-life Dinaric person, I am just not sure about his height... Oh, and meeting a few representatives of a nation does not mean you know them all - it is not a good idea to generalise :cool4: ...

Not really, I'd say the first image is fairly correct, except the crooked nose... Your picture doesn't look like a Dinaric person to me (I'm probably Dinaric so I have some idea, haha...)

[hiraeth]

Not really, I'd say the first image is fairly correct, except the crooked nose... Your picture doesn't look like a Dinaric person to me (I'm probably Dinaric so I have some idea, haha...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla - this is the best example of a Dinaric person, originating from Dinaric Alps, IMHO... Compare the pictures of Dinaric people I posted in this thread with the first image, it is somewhat similar, but the skin colour and the features do not match completely...Oh, and I know for sure, I am definitely Dinaric and have lived surrounded by Dinaric people all my life...

[Bushido]

Balkans are fairly similar to North,both in mentality and physique.