[ADwD Spoilers] Dany Criticism Before and After ADWD

[Gogossos]

When did she learn this? Unless you are speculating about what she will learn in the next book. Because the last we see of Dany in Meereen she did forge peace through an imperfect political compromise and seemed pretty content to leave the ruling to her husband. Perhaps she will come to the realization that she needs to be a little more like Aegon the Conqueror and just ride the dragons to victory, but she has not come to that realization yet.

Without trying to put words in your mouth, who says that her best route is to follow Aegon the Conqueror? I actually thought this book, more than anything else, was about Dany finding her own unique way. She wasn't particularly successful but I believe she's now quite close. Her compassion levels are similar to Neds. Her political smarts, though untrained, have potential to reach Littlefinger's. Her military insight is already impressive, though obviously still below Robb and Tywin's. All this without any training save for advice and prophecy here and there.

**Speculation alert** I actually now think Dany's final destination is not the Iron Throne. She'll get to Westeros and help eliminate the Others threat but , like Ned, she'll decide that Kings Landing is a pit full of snakes and not her place at all. Simultaneously, Jon is discovering that the Wall and nobility in the North is not for him either. There's a chance that, if Aegon is the real deal, Dany will hand the throne to him with Tyrion as his hand (if he survives the Lannister family feud); otherwise I think Tyrion is also realising that the whole Westeros thing is not for him either. Hence, I can see all three of them riding their dragons helping Dany with her quest of freeing slaves all over the world.

[Xayoz]

I personally feel that the fact she is still alive at this point, makes her a Mary Sue.

[tuthmoses]

I'm sick to death of Dany's character I used to like her especially in the first 3 books but its clear now that she's become the most boring one dimensional character in the series and as someone else here said if after all her mess ups she gets another horde of dothraki it will suck big time. I want Victarion to steal her dragons and go pillaging his way through westeros while she fs off somewhere and quits laming up the series.

oh and as for her riding off into the sunset to rid the world of slavery after defeating the others and then handing the iron throne over to its rightful heir .... ugh no thanks

[iamthedave]

Without trying to put words in your mouth, who says that her best route is to follow Aegon the Conqueror? I actually thought this book, more than anything else, was about Dany finding her own unique way. She wasn't particularly successful but I believe she's now quite close. Her compassion levels are similar to Neds. Her political smarts, though untrained, have potential to reach Littlefinger's. Her military insight is already impressive, though obviously still below Robb and Tywin's. All this without any training save for advice and prophecy here and there.

**Speculation alert** I actually now think Dany's final destination is not the Iron Throne. She'll get to Westeros and help eliminate the Others threat but , like Ned, she'll decide that Kings Landing is a pit full of snakes and not her place at all. Simultaneously, Jon is discovering that the Wall and nobility in the North is not for him either. There's a chance that, if Aegon is the real deal, Dany will hand the throne to him with Tyrion as his hand (if he survives the Lannister family feud); otherwise I think Tyrion is also realising that the whole Westeros thing is not for him either. Hence, I can see all three of them riding their dragons helping Dany with her quest of freeing slaves all over the world.

Ugh, no. If Dany's learned one thing from Dance, surely it's that being the world's white knight doesn't work out. Her entire manifesto to date has been 'end slavery'. That has not worked out very well.

Her visions at the end clearly hint towards a 'return to her roots', and 'Fire and Blood' point to the exact sort of conquering antics that Aegon was famous for and what made the Targs what they were.

And I think you grossly, grossly overestimate her abilities. Yes she's good militarily, but we've seen very little evidence that she has a head for politics. She spends the whole of Dance befuddled, never sure what to do or how to even move forward with her planning.

And recall how Dany saw Brown Ben Plumm, and how Tyrion saw him. One of them was taken in by his easy charm and manner, the other instantly saw it as a facade and recognized him as a dangerous man. One of them is not much of a politician, the other one is.

[No One Truly]

It's not Dany that's the problem... it's everything around Dany. In the beginning, it was kind of neat that she was off on the other side of the sea, doing her own thing. She transformed from timid, abused girl into mother of dragons and amazing warrior. The change from the first Dany chapter to the dragon birth chapter at the end of GoT... wow. What a developed character. Then she started wandering to Qarth and all these other places, which was OK, but getting annoying.

As the reader, I know that Dany is eventually going to get to Westeros with her dragons (at least I think so; who knows, Martin may kill her). So it's frustrating to read chapter after chapter of her sitting on a stupid pillow baring her breast and talking to cartoon characters. I think, when GRRM needs to name a character in Meereen, he just has his cat prance around on his keyboard. I am so fed up with her chapters not going anywhere. I don't care about the Shavepate, or the Brazen Beasts. I don't care about how sexy Daario's gold tooth is (ew). I just want the dragons to go to Westeros. At least the Westerosi characters are caught up in a familiar intrigue that's tied together with comingling storylines. Dany is just sitting a world apart. It sucks because she keeps getting this super high chapter load because she's a main character. That's my frustration, at least. She was a character that developed really quickly, and now GRRM is just sort of stalling because he can't send her to Westeros until near the end.

[boojam]

It's not Dany that's the problem... it's everything around Dany.

To me it's George that's the problem.

In DwD he seems have more interest in other parts of the plot ball.

He had seemed consistent in the development of Dany's character in 1-3...

then all of a sudden things start to drift.

George only seems to perk up when Dany is with her dragons ... and there aint enough of that , especially in a novel with Dragons in the title!

[Raging Bear]

I'm sick to death of Dany's character I used to like her especially in the first 3 books but its clear now that she's become the most boring one dimensional character in the series and as someone else here said if after all her mess ups she gets another horde of dothraki it will suck big time. I want Victarion to steal her dragons and go pillaging his way through westeros while she fs off somewhere and quits laming up the series.

oh and as for her riding off into the sunset to rid the world of slavery after defeating the others and then handing the iron throne over to its rightful heir .... ugh no thanks

You are not first to claim this but I don't see how anyone can assume that Dany and the dothraki are going to be all buddy-buddy. What is she to them? An ex-Khalessi who refused to go to Vas Dothrak? the Mother of Dragons? She has no control over them. Drogon let her ride him as he went back to his cave. The only thing the dragons have shown is a desire not to kill her. Other than that they do whatever they want. She probably won't be able to control them without the horn, which Victarion has. She has nothing right now: no army, no followers, no dragons, not even any food. And she is surrounded by enemies, dothraki included, who would love to slap her in chains and wouldn't have any problem killing her, or al least raping her.

So no, I don't see how never has to pay for here mistakes, or always gets rewarded.

[The Lost Lord]

Ugh, no. If Dany's learned one thing from Dance, surely it's that being the world's white knight doesn't work out. Her entire manifesto to date has been 'end slavery'. That has not worked out very well.

Uh, she is not giving up on this. Did you miss the extensive setup that the slaves of Volantis are ready for her arrival?

And I think you grossly, grossly overestimate her abilities. Yes she's good militarily, but we've seen very little evidence that she has a head for politics. She spends the whole of Dance befuddled, never sure what to do or how to even move forward with her planning.

Wrong. Dany wanted to achieve peace in ADWD. She realized that the only way she could end the insurgency and stop the Yunkai'i threat was to marry Hizdahr. So she did it. And then -- this is very important -- Dany became antsy and unhappy with the results, before anyone else broke the peace. She gets politics, but she is unwilling to tolerate the compromises that are inherent to it. She wants to conquer and to rule and to get her way.

[iamthedave]

You are not first to claim this but I don't see how anyone can assume that Dany and the dothraki are going to be all buddy-buddy. What is she to them? An ex-Khalessi who refused to go to Vas Dothrak? the Mother of Dragons? She has no control over them. Drogon let her ride him as he went back to his cave. The only thing the dragons have shown is a desire not to kill her. Other than that they do whatever they want. She probably won't be able to control them without the horn, which Victarion has. She has nothing right now: no army, no followers, no dragons, not even any food. And she is surrounded by enemies, dothraki included, who would love to slap her in chains and wouldn't have any problem killing her, or al least raping her.

So no, I don't see how never has to pay for here mistakes, or always gets rewarded.

So you expect that the cliffhanger of Dany's ending is going to be followed up with the khalesar taking her prisoner and spiriting her away to vaes dothrak?

Or do you expect that she's going to turn Drogon on them and/or they'll be awed by the dragon and end up serving her?

Dany has a dragon. The biggest, meanest dragon. She has everything.

[eivers]

Dragons are not invincible, 50 skilled warriors should be able to take down a Dragon. Lets not forget that GRRM showed us during the pit fighting scene that at this stage a single spearman was able to injure Drogon.

[Sega AM2]

So you expect that the cliffhanger of Dany's ending is going to be followed up with the khalesar taking her prisoner and spiriting her away to vaes dothrak?

One of her visions in the House of the Undying is of her being brought back to the Dosh Khaleen and being presented to the Crones. As is tradition for all Dothraki Queens who lose their Khal. And she definitely lost Drogo.

However, we also see visions in the House of the Undying, of events that might have happened in another lifetime but will never come to pass now. We see Rhaego as the Stallion that Mounts. Clearly that is not going to happen. But we also see Aerys's moment of insanity "let him be the King of ashes". And we see the Red Wedding and the cries of "Mother! Mother!" in my languages and those absolutely happen.

Odds are split right down the middle. Will Dany ride all the way to the Dosh Khaleen to be presented to the Crones like a good Khalessei would? Considering "backwards to go forwards" I will estimate that she will indeed go on a long and tediously boring ten chapter journey to Vaes Dothrak or wherever the Crones are.

Or do you expect that she's going to turn Drogon on them and/or they'll be awed by the dragon and end up serving her?

There is no way that one Dragon can stand against a full Dothraki Horde. Especially one that is hardly trained at all. On the Field of Fire it took Aegon and his sisters' Dragons, three fully grown Dragons, to kill 4,000 men and get the rest to bend the knee. Those three Dragons were the three most powerful Dragons arguable ever to have been used in combat. I would laugh my ass off if GRRM had Dany capable of getting Drogon to be able to defeat an entire Dothraki Horde.

Dany has a dragon. The biggest, meanest dragon. She has everything.

A Dragon that doesn't obey versus thousands of Dothraki warriors. Eventually Drogon will tire out and the Dothraki will find her and kill her if they want. She needs to win them over by riding off to the Dothraki Crones and getting their blessing to lead the Khals across the narrow sea.

[voodooqueen126]

I absolutely agree. Maybe 20 more books. Not happening. But you do have freedom pincers surrounding our fav faux nation all of a sudden, and a chaotic situation in the capitol. If the ending is benevolent, smart king/queen on the Iron Throne, I don't know if I'll be satisfied. All of this social change seems like it's going somewhere...

Abolishing the feudal system would take over 100 years, maybe all this social change is leading to magna carta like document.

Seriously anybody who thinks that Westeros is or should abolish the monarch is an idiot-Westeros it took the English speaking* people from Magna Carta (1215) to the American War of Independence (endied 1783) 568 years.

Let me tell you honestly that if George Washington had come along during the era of Magna Carta he would've ended up King.

Or during the peasant's Revolt 1381 he would've ended up King. (if he had won of course-Wat Tyler was killed remember)

Or Oliver Cromwell who executed Charles 1 in 1649 ended up a tyrant and was basically becoming a king...Just a few years before the American Revolution...

On another discussion someone even pointed out to me that Westeros isn't even ready for Magna Carta, after all didn't England have Witan long before they had Magna Carta, under that logic the mostly likely part of Westeros to become a democracy is the Iron Islands.

*Since America inherited English culture, they shall be considered together, as Churchill wanted. Admittedly American culture was highly influenced by puritans (puritans=literate, therefore advanced)

[Lord Godric]

Well, I do think that Dany being in Meeren accomplished a few things, like teaching her freedmen some independence, allowing them to work together with poorer Meerenese under Shavepate's command, making Shavepate a viable candidate for ruling Meeren once Dany is gone. Her attempts to make peace with the slavers demonstrated that it won't really be viable. With luck, this will be enough to prevent another Astapor.

What is more, the slaves in other slave-holding cities have become riled up and their rulers sending troops against Meeren gives them a golden opportunity for a massive revolt.

IMHO, the solution to the problem will be military destruction of the Yunkish and their current allies, who seem to be most of the way there anyway and Victarion-assisted victory over Volantene fleet, with, perhaps slave-soldiers rebelling.

And let's not forget that the R'llorians seem to be preaching in Dany's support, for some reason - it wouldn't surprise me if they seize the chance to get onto the liberation train and after the dust settles, become state religion under the new regimes.

Then slave revolt will engulf the slave-holding cities and Braavos, that already tried to get slavery abolished with mixed results, is going to support it, IMHO.

No, it won't be pretty, but it could, potentially, change the face of Essos. For the better, eventually, as slavery is really inefficient, even compared to feudalism.

Uh, she is not giving up on this. Did you miss the extensive setup that the slaves of Volantis are ready for her arrival?

While Dany inadvertently starting a worldwide slave rebellion would be great for Essos, I don't want to see it on the page. And I certainly don't want to see Dany leading this rebellion. She tried in Astapor, and failed. She is trying in Meereen and things aren't going her way. If TWoW sees Dany trying this experiment again in Volantis I will be beyond frustrated. Especially after remembering her true identity in her final chapter.

Without trying to put words in your mouth, who says that her best route is to follow Aegon the Conqueror? I actually thought this book, more than anything else, was about Dany finding her own unique way. She wasn't particularly successful but I believe she's now quite close.

Well what I meant about Dany being like Aegon the Conqueror I just meant that she needs to realize that her dragons as the keys to her success. She needs to use her dragons as a military weapon, not lock them away in a pyramid.

Her compassion levels are similar to Neds. Her political smarts, though untrained, have potential to reach Littlefinger's. Her military insight is already impressive, though obviously still below Robb and Tywin's. All this without any training save for advice and prophecy here and there.

We clearly have different impressions of Dany. I don't consider her to be a strong player in the game like Petyr, a great military general like Robb or Tywin. In fact I think she is about as effective at ruling as Robert was.

**Speculation alert** I actually now think Dany's final destination is not the Iron Throne. She'll get to Westeros and help eliminate the Others threat but , like Ned, she'll decide that Kings Landing is a pit full of snakes and not her place at all. Simultaneously, Jon is discovering that the Wall and nobility in the North is not for him either. There's a chance that, if Aegon is the real deal, Dany will hand the throne to him with Tyrion as his hand (if he survives the Lannister family feud); otherwise I think Tyrion is also realising that the whole Westeros thing is not for him either. Hence, I can see all three of them riding their dragons helping Dany with her quest of freeing slaves all over the world.

Personally, I hope that Dany dies fighting the Others. Sacrificing herself for her kingdom would be a great ending for her, IMO.

Wrong. Dany wanted to achieve peace in ADWD. She realized that the only way she could end the insurgency and stop the Yunkai'i threat was to marry Hizdahr. So she did it. And then -- this is very important -- Dany became antsy and unhappy with the results, before anyone else broke the peace. She gets politics, but she is unwilling to tolerate the compromises that are inherent to it. She wants to conquer and to rule and to get her way.

That doesn't sound like an effective leader to me. Sounds, again, more like Robert or Cersei.

[Raging Bear]

So you expect that the cliffhanger of Dany's ending is going to be followed up with the khalesar taking her prisoner and spiriting her away to vaes dothrak?

Or do you expect that she's going to turn Drogon on them and/or they'll be awed by the dragon and end up serving her?

Dany has a dragon. The biggest, meanest dragon. She has everything.

She can't turn Drogon on anyone, that's my point. She has no control over him. Drogon let Dany ride her him because she is his mother, but he went where he wanted to go, she did not direct him. He does not follow her around like a dog (or wolf) waiting for her command. He does what he wants and goes where he pleases. He doesn't even come back to her at the end of the day, he has his own cave. He is not a tool she can use, not just because he won't listen to her, but also because he is rarely physically near her at all.

And no, I don't think the scenario I laid out will happen to her. Maybe the Khalessar is on it's way to raid Meereen and she will be ransomed,perhaps she will escape, or she might even be rescued (for ulterior motives of course). I'm just saying that is where she stands at the end of ADWD.

[Lord Mord]

I definitely don't think Dany is a great leader. As with most anyone, especially one so young, greatness is there, but only a faint shadow as yet.

I wonder why it was necessary in this volume that the dragons should be such a relatively small part? Why is Dany so uninvolved with them? I don't mean what are her motivations, but what are George's? Why was it so important to the story?

[Lord Godric]

I definitely don't think Dany is a great leader. As with most anyone, especially one so young, greatness is there, but only a faint shadow as yet.

I wonder why it was necessary in this volume that the dragons should be such a relatively small part? Why is Dany so uninvolved with them? I don't mean what are her motivations, but what are George's? Why was it so important to the story?

I think having Dany lock away the dragons was done so that by the end of the book we could see Dany rediscover her true identity and purpose.

[Layne]

She gets politics, but she is unwilling to tolerate the compromises that are inherent to it. She wants to conquer and to rule and to get her way.

So, you're saying she doesn't get politics. :lol:

Dany's story is in a holding pattern, waiting for the rest of the narrative to catch up so she can make her way to Westeros. Martin didn't expect the series to end up at 7 books, and it's fairly obvious that he's got nothing for her to do until she becomes relevant to the story again. But he's unwilling, and he thinks the fans would react poorly, if he let her fall out of the books for the most part. Her story in Dance and Storm needed half the chapters she actually got.

[Sega AM2]

Dany's story is in a holding pattern, waiting for the rest of the narrative to catch up so she can make her way to Westeros. Martin didn't expect the series to end up at 7 books, and it's fairly obvious that he's got nothing for her to do until she becomes relevant to the story again. But he's unwilling, and he thinks the fans would react poorly, if he let her fall out of the books for the most part. Her story in Dance and Storm needed half the chapters she actually got.

I don't buy that at all. New Aegon literally remains off page for the entire narrative of the first four books until he enters with the strongest sellsword army behind his back and the council of Jon Connington in book five. Connington being another late game major player that has stayed off of the page until the fifth book. We don't need endless pages of Fake Aegon being schooled in the ways of rule for the first four books. We get a few sentences "Aegon has been taught to rule since birth" and we get all we need.

Stannis? Melisandre? Mance Rayder? Howland Reed? Arianne? Doran? Lots of characters have waited around off screen and then come to the front when the time was right. We didn't get a glimpse of Stannis until the second book. Mance Rayder not around until the third book. The Dorne plot only really emerges during AFFC even though they've been planning it since Robert's Rebellion.

And Arya, Sansa, and Bran, were all demoted from having regular chapters to just having guest appearances. Bran has a few chapters in ADWD and that's it. Arya combined in AFFC and ADWD has only a few. Sansa has three chapters in AFFC. Dany (and Jon and Tyrion for that matter) could have had only three or four chapters total in ADWD to satisfy her story arc and it would have been fine.

Ten chapters for Dany in ADWD was overkill. Imagine if it took Bran ten chapters to get to the 3EC Bloodraven. Or if we had ten chapters of Arya being blind and learning three new things. Or ten chapters of Alayne doing dishes and reading council meeting notes.