Did Cersei murder Melara?

[SynthFG]

Am just finishing a re-read of AFFC and I think there can be little doubt that Cercei had some measure of responsibility for Malera's death

Froggy womman does all but point at Cerci with her prophacy and Cercei herself definatly heard the girls screams from the well

The rest of her remanices strike me as she is trying very hard to avoid the reason for Malera's death and doesn't want to think about it at all

THo we haven't got the whole story yet, wouldn't supprise me if Malera had spied Young Jamie and Cercei fooling around (we know they were'experimenting' from a young age) and had tried to use the knowledge to blackmail Cerci in some way

[Jadiecat]

I don't think Cersei purposefully murdered Mallara - to do this would have advanced the prophecy Cersei dreaded. But I think she was either glad or non caring when Mallara fell and didn't help her. Malara's life didn't worth for her enough to do something about it. So she did actually contributed to her death by not rendering her assistance. By modern legal standarts if would still be considered manslauther, but probably not premidiated murder. That why Ceresei could be considered Malara's death.

I think Cersei desperately wanted the *first* part of the prophesy to come true, about wedding the king (she would have thought this was Rhaegar) and becoming queen, and she pushed Malora into the well as extra insurance regarding the prophesy's accuracy.

I wonder if she has in any way tried to manipulate her own pregnancies to either fit, or counter Maggy's words. I also wonder how often some of her actions have been driven by trying to forestall the rest of the prophecy.

If I lived in Westeros, and there was anything about me that sounded even faintly like part of Maggy's prophesy, I'd constantly be checking for Cersei over my shoulder.

[Masha]

There is also a bit of disrepancy here about Cersei past and her thoughts about the past in AFFC.

In ASOS Oberyn remembers Cersei being pretty distraught about her mother's death and hating/torturing baby Tyrion for that. She was 8-9 at the time definately before Maggy's valenquar prophecy which happened when she was 11 and that caused her to fear Tyrion as well.

In AFFC, Cersei remembers being so happy that her mother died and won't interfere anymore with her and Jamie.

She might have pretended to be sad over her mother's death to Oberyn and Elia but she definately was angry over it.

I think Cersei definately becoming more and more paranoid in AFFC possibly due to fear of Tyrion, grief over Joffrey and drinking and when she reminisces about her past, that clouds her memories as well.

[Cas Stark]

She is a sociopathic nut and has been since early childhood. I don't remember her being glad her mother died, but it would fit with her personality since she hates anyone who doesn't let her have her way, and at the same time, lies to herself when convenient. So, she is totally capable of having been glad her mother died and of torturing Tyrion because he killed her mother.

As a young child she was already threatening to have people whipped and their tongues torn out, and had committed her first pre meditated murder by age 11.

[Masha]

She is a sociopathic nut and has been since early childhood. I don't remember her being glad her mother died, but it would fit with her personality since she hates anyone who doesn't let her have her way, and at the same time, lies to herself when convenient. So, she is totally capable of having been glad her mother died and of torturing Tyrion because he killed her mother.

As a young child she was already threatening to have people whipped and their tongues torn out, and had committed her first pre meditated murder by age 11.

I am pretty sure that both Sansa and Arya when confronted with others who tried to stand in their way or didn't do what they wanted or said what they didn't like threatened them with "my father will have you whipped for that", "you'll be punished", etc. This particular sentence does not make Cersei sociopath in my eyes just highborn girl too full of herself

[Cas Stark]

I am pretty sure that both Sansa and Arya when confronted with others who tried to stand in their way or didn't do what they wanted or said what they didn't like threatened them with "my father will have you whipped for that", "you'll be punished", etc. This particular sentence does not make Cersei sociopath in my eyes.

What do you base this on? Is there anything in the text that comes remotely close to either Arya or Sansa threatening to have someone's tongue cut out or having them whipped? There is nothing in the text that even supports the Starks whipped anyone in their household let alone that they would do it at the behest of a child who didn't get their way.

I think she's a sociopath because she pushed Melara down the well at the age of 11 for no legitimate reason except to keep her mouth shut about the prophecy, and even as an adult she refuses to take any blame for her action. The fact that she threatened people with violence from that age and committed other violent acts at that age is just more evidence to me.

Further evidence that she is a sociopath is that her son Joff ALSO exhibits the same behavior at a very young age....sadistic cruelty and absolute lack of empathy from early childhood.

[Masha]

What do you base this on? Is there anything in the text that comes remotely close to either Arya or Sansa threatening to have someone's tongue cut out or having them whipped? There is nothing in the text that even supports the Starks whipped anyone in their household let alone that they would do it at the behest of a child who didn't get their way.

I think she's a sociopath because she pushed Melara down the well at the age of 11 for no legitimate reason except to keep her mouth shut about the prophecy, and even as an adult she refuses to take any blame for her action. The fact that she threatened people with violence from that age and committed other violent acts at that age is just more evidence to me.

Further evidence that she is a sociopath is that her son Joff ALSO exhibits the same behavior at a very young age....sadistic cruelty and absolute lack of empathy from early childhood.

The first thing comes to mind - Game of Thrones Arya chapter when she overhears Varys plotting, sees Dragon skulls and gets lost outside of castle. Guards stand on her way and she says"....my lord father will have both your heads on spikes. ....do you need a clout on the ear to help your hearing?" and I remember there were several others in GoT

[Whitering]

I really love that resurrecting the dead threads is not frowned upon here lol

[Cas Stark]

The first thing comes to mind - Game of Thrones Arya chapter when she overhears Varys plotting, sees Dragon skulls and gets lost outside of castle. Guards stand on her way and she says"....my lord father will have both your heads on spikes. ....do you need a clout on the ear to help your hearing?" and I remember there were several others in GoT

So, you don't see a difference between being refused entry back into the city because the guards don't believe you are who you say you are and randomly threatening a variety of servants and common people who are no threat to you, where you are doing it just because you can? Okay, whatever.

[Whitering]

So, you don't see a difference between being refused entry back into the city because the guards don't believe you are who you say you are and randomly threatening a variety of servants and common people who are no threat to you, where you are doing it just because you can? Okay, whatever.

They didn't just deny her back to the city, they didn't believe anything about her and were in fact mean to her.

[Masha]

They didn't just deny her back to the city, they didn't believe anything about her and were in fact mean to her.

What I am trying to say its indication of being spoiled at that age but not sociopathic. High born children at that age and time felt empowered enough to threaten their subjects with bodily harm if they didn't do as they said. Cersei saying "do not refuse me or I will have you whipped, pull your tongue out" does not indicate her being sociopathic at that early age, And there while there is an indication of Cersei not lifting a finger to help Melara there is no indication that she actually pushed her there.

[Cas Stark]

What I am trying to say its indication of being spoiled at that age but not sociopathic. High born children at that age and time felt empowered enough to threaten their subjects with bodily harm if they didn't do as they said. Cersei saying "do not refuse me or I will have you whipped, pull your tongue out" does not indicate her being sociopathic at that early age, And there while there is an indication of Cersei not lifting a finger to help Melara there is no indication that she actually pushed her there.

I disagree. Arya had heard what she believed was a plot against her father's life, she had ended up outside of the city gates and the guards were not going to let her back into the city. Her invoking her father's name is not an indication of being spoiled, it was the only way she possibly could get back into KL. It bears no resemblance to Cersei telling Tyrion's wet nurse she would have her tongue cut out because she only needed teats or telling Maggie the Frog that the would have her whipped if she didn't get her fortune told. Cersei was lording it over the common people because she could. Arya had no choice, otherwise she would have been stuck outside the city.

How else do you think Melara got in the well? She just randomly fell in, while she happened to be with Cersei? What a crazy coincidence, especially after Maggy the Frog predicted Cersei would be the death of her.

And what is the excuse for twisting her brother's penis when he was an infant?

And yet, another crazy coincidence that Cersei's son Joffrey exhibits the same early childhood sociopathic behavior as she did...killing cats and abusing his younger brother.

[Gurkhal]

I think its entirely possible that Cersei killed Melara but I wouldn't say that its certain. For one thing she does not think to herself about pushing down Melara into the well, as has already been mentioned by other posters.

[Chickren]

As one who neither adores Cersei nor hates her. . .

OP: Did Cersei murder Melara? We are certainly lead to believe she did.

[IceGal]

I have no trouble believing that Cersei pushed Melara in the well. Her psycho-ness didn't start just like that when she grew older.

[jons nissa]

I think she's a sociopath because she pushed Melara down the well at the age of 11 for no legitimate reason except to keep her mouth shut about the prophecy, and even as an adult she refuses to take any blame for her action. The fact that she threatened people with violence from that age and committed other violent acts at that age is just more evidence to me.

actually she is angry with melara and probably pushed her into the well (definitely did not help her out or get someone to do so) because melara is interested in jaime.

I really love that resurrecting the dead threads is not frowned upon here lol

why should it be frowned upon to post in an old thread?

[Cas Stark]

actually she is angry with melara and probably pushed her into the well (definitely did not help her out or get someone to do so) because melara is interested in jaime.

why should it be frowned upon to post in an old thread?

I thought she did it to keep her from talking, because she remembers that Melara said the prophecy wouldn't come true if they never spoke about it...so, Cersei decides the best way to ensure its never spoken about is to silence Melara forever...and she also remembers that Melara wasn't quiet in the well, which makes me think even more this was her motive. Whether the betrayal in her mind was due to Melara's crush on Jamie or whatever she said while she was dying in the well or both, that I don't know.

I find Cersei, while a wonderful character, probably one of the top most loathsome people in the books, she is up there with Ramsey Bolton as far as I am concerned. At least the cruelty of her father and Roose Bolton is done with a purpose and it gets the desired results. She is a font of endless destruction of whatever and whomever she comes into contact with..brothers, husband, children, country along with and any poor sot who crosses her path and makes her angry or has something she wants.

[jons nissa]

I thought she did it to keep her from talking, because she remembers that Melara said the prophecy wouldn't come true if they never spoke about it...so, Cersei decides the best way to ensure its never spoken about is to silence Melara forever...and she also remembers that Melara wasn't quiet in the well, which makes me think even more this was her motive. Whether the betrayal in her mind was due to Melara's crush on Jamie or whatever she said while she was dying in the well or both, that I don't know.

I find Cersei, while a wonderful character, probably one of the top most loathsome people in the books, she is up there with Ramsey Bolton as far as I am concerned. At least the cruelty of her father and Roose Bolton is done with a purpose and it gets the desired results. She is a font of endless destruction of whatever and whomever she comes into contact with..brothers, husband, children, country along with and any poor sot who crosses her path and makes her angry or has something she wants.

yes, she does want to keep melara quiet. Melara had begged her never to speak of the things they heard that night in the maegi 's tent. If we never talk about it we'll soon forget, and then it will be just a bad dream we had, Melara had said. Bad dreams never come true.

it is also implied that Melara had "turned out to be a greedy little schemer with ideas above her station."

and yes, she is a fascinating character and watching her self destruct while she takes as many with her as possible has been entertaining.

[Mikkel]

it is also implied that Melara had "turned out to be a greedy little schemer with ideas above her station."

Pretty sure "ideas above her station" means Jaime. Well, well well thought Cersei.. okay that was terrible, I'll go to bed now.

[jons nissa]

Pretty sure "ideas above her station" means Jaime. Well, well well thought Cersei.. okay that was terrible, I'll go to bed now.

most would agree with you.