What Will Become of the Lannister Siblings, Part Deux

[mcb]

I'm not so sure how crackpot that is. The Tyrells have already murdered Joff, possibly with Marg dropping the poison in the wine herself. I think there is a nice parallel with Marg and Tommen and Sansa and Sweetrobin. Marg seems to be mothering Tommen, with complete devotion. Meanwhile Sansa is mothering SweetRobin whilst being exasperated with him. It would be interesting if Marg uses the trust she has built up with Tommen to lead him into a situation where he ends up dead.

To what purpose? When Tommen dies, the Tyrells lose the throne. Until Tommen gets her pregnant (and that's still a few years off), Margaery has all reasons in the world to keep him alive.

[Alexia]

I don't see Jaime doing any matchmaking for Sansa

Have no fears, I never said I thought he would be successful.

About keeping Myrcella in Dorne -- TWOW Spoilers:

Myrcella has left Dorne with Lady Nym for KL along with a Dornish escort.

I can easily see the Tyrells killing Tommen and trying to offer Margaery to Aegon. If he marries her (I don't think anyone will if something happens to Tommen; she ought to be called The Black Widow at this point), we all know he's a dead man walking.

[Alexia]

Could you direct me to the book/chapter that occurs? I'd like to re-read it in context.

ADWD, his only chapter. I think his plan to keep Sansa safe, prevent Cersei from killing her, make sure the Boltons continue to hold the North for the Lannisters through false Arya, and mop up the last of the rebellion, is very simple and straightforward -- he's going to make Sansa disappear... by turning her into a random peasant and issuing a long list of threats about what he'll have done to her if she reappears and tries to make a claim for Winterfell.

Luckily, Lady Stoneheart is around to foil his plans and it is not likely he'll ever put his hands on her to do that.

[1234567]

To what purpose? When Tommen dies, the Tyrells lose the throne. Until Tommen gets her pregnant (and that's still a few years off), Margaery has all reasons in the world to keep him alive.

If they were switching sides, then Tommen's death could appear accidental (this is where the trust thing comes in) and therefore the Tyrells don't acquire the child killer reputation the Lannisters had, but do remove the problem of what to do with Tommen for Aegon. They can then try and broker a deal for the thrice widowed Marg to marry Aegon.

[headtrip_honey]

ADWD, his only chapter. I think his plan to keep Sansa safe, prevent Cersei from killing her, make sure the Boltons continue to hold the North for the Lannisters through false Arya, and mop up the last of the rebellion, is very simple and straightforward -- he's going to make Sansa disappear... by turning her into a random peasant and issuing a long list of threats about what he'll have done to her if she reappears and tries to make a claim for Winterfell.

Luckily, Lady Stoneheart is around to foil his plans and it is not likely he'll ever put his hands on her to do that.

I still think you're partially wrong about his intentions. (Found it, by the way. For some reason I was convinced it was AFFC, as I felt that I had just read it, and I'm still at the beginning of my re-read of ADwD)

I don't see him as having any intention of doing anything with Sansa himself - more that he hopes SHE'LL do it on her own.

"...and never need to fear that some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall."

That line, to me, says that his hope that Sansa will "disappear" is for her safety and the hypothetical safety of her children. He was just reminiscing about Rhaegar's kids prior to making his statement about Sansa, after all.

But, I have a more sympathetic reading of him in general.

[Alexia]

He has Brienne out searching for Sansa. Once Brienne gets her, Jaime is going to need to decide what to do with her. He can't restore her to Winterfell. He can't restore her to Riverrun. He doesn't want to go directly up against Cersei and give her the evidence of Sansa's innocence -- the confession of the murderer in question, the murderer who Jaime released from his cell (right before said murderer proceeded to murder their father). He can't imprison her beside Edmure, because then Cersei will torture her to death. He isn't going to be able to convince Cersei to pardon her for killing Joffrey.

Sansa is an extreme danger to the Lannisters' tenuous hold on the North and Riverlands. He doesn't want to let Cersei torture her to death. But he can't let her hare off on her own either, or else all that work he is doing subjugating Edmure and the riverlords will go for nothing and war will break out in the kingdoms again. The logical conclusion that follows is that Jaime intends to make this disappearance happen once Brienne puts her hands on her. Anything else will result in either Sansa's death or another Northern rebellion, from Jaime's perspective.

He didn't have a problem with threatening Edmure with being tortured in the bowels of Casterly Rock before imprisoning him. Why then would he have a problem with threatening Sansa with the same? It is entirely consistent with his characterization, in fact, I think he'd find it merciful since at least she isn't spending her life in permanent imprisonment or being executed for the part she played in murdering the king.

[brashcandy]

If they were switching sides, then Tommen's death could appear accidental (this is where the trust thing comes in) and therefore the Tyrells don't acquire the child killer reputation the Lannisters had, but do remove the problem of what to do with Tommen for Aegon. They can then try and broker a deal for the thrice widowed Marg to marry Aegon.

And of course she's still a virgin! :)

[brashcandy]

He has Brienne out searching for Sansa. Once Brienne gets her, Jaime is going to need to decide what to do with her. He can't restore her to Winterfell. He can't restore her to Riverrun. He doesn't want to go directly up against Cersei and give her the evidence of Sansa's innocence -- the confession of the murderer in question, the murderer who Jaime released from his cell (right before said murderer proceeded to murder their father). He can't imprison her beside Edmure, because then Cersei will torture her to death. He isn't going to be able to convince Cersei to pardon her for killing Joffrey.

Sansa is an extreme danger to the Lannisters' tenuous hold on the North and Riverlands. He doesn't want to let Cersei torture her to death. But he can't let her hare off on her own either, or else all that work he is doing subjugating Edmure and the riverlords will go for nothing and war will break out in the kingdoms again. The logical conclusion that follows is that Jaime intends to make this disappearance happen once Brienne puts her hands on her. Anything else will result in either Sansa's death or another Northern rebellion, from Jaime's perspective.

He didn't have a problem with threatening Edmure with being tortured in the bowels of Casterly Rock before imprisoning him. Why then would he have a problem with threatening Sansa with the same? It is entirely consistent with his characterization, in fact, I think he'd find it merciful since at least she isn't spending her life in permanent imprisonment or being executed for the part she played in murdering the king.

:agree:

I think people are misreading Jaime's intentions here because for some reason they think he's broken away from the Lannister cause. He hasn't. He's broken away from Cersei for a time, but was on his way back there anyways before he disappeared.

[headtrip_honey]

He has Brienne out searching for Sansa. Once Brienne gets her, Jaime is going to need to decide what to do with her. He can't restore her to Winterfell. He can't restore her to Riverrun. He doesn't want to go directly up against Cersei and give her the evidence of Sansa's innocence -- the confession of the murderer in question, the murderer who Jaime released from his cell (right before said murderer proceeded to murder their father). He can't imprison her beside Edmure, because then Cersei will torture her to death. He isn't going to be able to convince Cersei to pardon her for killing Joffrey.

Sansa is an extreme danger to the Lannisters' tenuous hold on the North and Riverlands. He doesn't want to let Cersei torture her to death. But he can't let her hare off on her own either, or else all that work he is doing subjugating Edmure and the riverlords will go for nothing and war will break out in the kingdoms again. The logical conclusion that follows is that Jaime intends to make this disappearance happen once Brienne puts her hands on her. Anything else will result in either Sansa's death or another Northern rebellion, from Jaime's perspective.

He didn't have a problem with threatening Edmure with being tortured in the bowels of Casterly Rock before imprisoning him. Why then would he have a problem with threatening Sansa with the same? It is entirely consistent with his characterization, in fact, I think he'd find it merciful since at least she isn't spending her life in permanent imprisonment or being executed for the part she played in murdering the king.

Once you flesh out your thoughts like that, I understand a little more where you're coming from.

I admit that may be entirely possible, but I still don't get that from my reading. I think Jaime would treat Edmure and Sansa completely differently, for one thing. See his treatment of Jeyne Westerling. I don't see threats, more negotiation and discussion.

The way he says "If the gods are good," to me says that he's hoping it will happen, not that he intends to MAKE it happen. But that's my reading.

@brashcandy - I think Jaime is trying to tread a careful line between being loyal to the crown (and subsequently Lannister loyalties) and being more just and honorable. He unfortunately is finding this difficult.

You said elsewhere that you think his true redemption arc will be in WoW, if he gets one. I tend to (kind of) agree. I believe he's already on his redemption arc, but very soon he will have to make his ultimate choice between the two sides - Lannister or justice. We'll see where he comes down. (because I absolutely DO NOT believe that he is dead - GRRM loves the character too much to kill him off-screen. Even if he dies at Lady Stoneheart's hands, we'll see it.)

[Alexia]

See his treatment of Jeyne Westerling. I don't see threats, more negotiation and discussion.

I see a man who ruthlessly ordered guards set on a young girl with orders to shoot to kill in case of attempted escape or rescue, to the astonishment of his peers. His treatment of Jeyne terrifies me for Sansa, were he to recover her.

[voodooqueen126]

I see a man who ruthlessly ordered guards set on a young girl with orders to shoot to kill in case of attempted escape or rescue, to the astonishment of his peers. His treatment of Jeyne terrifies me for Sansa, were he to recover her.

Whilst he respected Jeyne for her love for Robb, his action to her where pretty terrible.

[headtrip_honey]

I see a man who ruthlessly ordered guards set on a young girl with orders to shoot to kill in case of attempted escape or rescue, to the astonishment of his peers.

I meant that when he met her face to face, he was gentle, and didn't threaten her. I only meant that if he WERE to discuss Sansa's future options, he would treat her more like Jeyne than like Edmure.

I'm not trying to claim that Jaime is an angel. He'd be boring if that were the case. But I think you're reading darker things into his intentions towards Sansa than the text provides evidence for.

I'm not saying he's not a ruthless combatant - he is. I just don't think that he'd treat Sansa with that ruthlessness.

[brashcandy]

I meant that when he met her face to face, he was gentle, and didn't threaten her. I only meant that if he WERE to discuss Sansa's future options, he would treat her more like Jeyne than like Edmure.

I'm not trying to claim that Jaime is an angel. He'd be boring if that were the case. But I think you're reading darker things into his intentions towards Sansa than the text provides evidence for.

I'm not saying he's not a ruthless combatant - he is. I just don't think that he'd treat Sansa with that ruthlessness.

Jaime's desertion of his sister - the girl whom he supposedly loved with all his heart - doesn't fill me with much hope for how he'll treat Sansa Stark who is accused of killing his child and whose reemergence would re-ignite the Northern threat.

[headtrip_honey]

Jaime's desertion of his sister - the girl whom he supposedly loved with all his heart - doesn't fill me with much hope for how he'll treat Sansa Stark who is accused of killing his child and whose reemergence would re-ignite the Northern threat.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I just don't see anything in the text that says that he bears Sansa any ill will and would do anything to force her into an unhappy secret marriage.

[brashcandy]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I just don't see anything in the text that says that he bears Sansa any ill will and would do anything to force her into an unhappy secret marriage.

Agree to disagree ;)

but he doesn't have to bear her any personal ill will - Cersei does, and he doesn't even have to force her into an unhappy marriage - Tyrion did :). All he needs to do is to make sure that she is never a threat to Lannister interests again.

[Alexia]

I meant that when he met her face to face, he was gentle, and didn't threaten her.

He was carrying Jeyne off into imprisonment for the next two years, and then arranging a marriage for her to a Lannister loyalist. She was from a family of Lannister loyalists, who very ruthlessly used her as a pawn to bring down Robb Stark in support of House Lannister. And he was still willing to have her killed after that.

In Sansa's case, he won't be holding her (because he can't without Cersei getting wind of it and having her tortured to death) and so he will see a need to terrorize her into never sticking her nose out and causing any future problems. He might feel a little bit bad about it, but he will still sit there and explain sweetly about how if she ever reappears as Sansa Stark and tries to claim Winterfell, he will turn her over to Cersei for XYZ to be done to her before she and all her children die screaming. Then he'll feel sad about how everyone thinks he's a monster when Sansa reacts with horror and terror, and then he'll walk away pleased with how he kept his oath to Lady Catelyn after he finds her that husband and gives the husband some gold to set the two of them up. Then he'll go angst about Lancel and Kettleblack and Moon Boy some more and forget all about Sansa. (Then there would be copious posts on this board about how he was only bluffing and would never actually do any of the horrible things he threatened her with...)

Fortunately, Lady Stoneheart is around to prevent this.... :)

ETA: I don't think he would try to force her into an unhappy marriage either, just one that neutralizes her as a threat to Lannister interests. And once again... I think he would perceive his actions as a mercy in comparison with the marriage Tywin arranged.

[headtrip_honey]

He was carrying Jeyne off into imprisonment for the next two years, and then arranging a marriage for her to a Lannister loyalist. She was from a family of Lannister loyalists, who very ruthlessly used her as a pawn to bring down Robb Stark in support of House Lannister. And he was still willing to have her killed after that.

In Sansa's case, he won't be holding her (because he can't without Cersei getting wind of it and having her tortured to death) and so he will see a need to terrorize her into never sticking her nose out and causing any future problems. He might feel a little bit bad about it, but he will still sit there and explain sweetly about how if she ever reappears as Sansa Stark and tries to claim Winterfell, he will turn her over to Cersei for XYZ to be done to her before she and all her children die screaming. Then he'll feel sad about how everyone thinks he's a monster when Sansa reacts with horror and terror, and then he'll walk away pleased with how he kept his oath to Lady Catelyn after he finds her that husband and gives the husband some gold to set the two of them up. Then he'll go angst about Lancel and Kettleblack and Moon Boy some more and forget all about Sansa.

Fortunately, Lady Stoneheart is around to prevent this.... :)

To be fair, Tywin had agreed to the marriage, not Jaime. Jaime was, rather disgustedly, carrying out his father's orders. As I said earlier, I think Jaime has been trying to straddle the line between Lannister loyalty and meting out justice/acting with honor. I think he'll have to ultimately choose between the two. I'm hoping he'll give a big middle finger to the Lannisters and go off with Brienne. But we'll see.

And again, I don't see any textual evidence that he'll do that to Sansa. All I see is him hoping Brienne finds her, and hoping that Sansa settles down with some no-name and gets herself out of "the game." Agree to disagree.

Personally, I think he's hoping Brienne will find her and hide her away. We'll find out when next we see him, I suppose. (Because we WILL see him. :) )

[Alexia]

To be fair, Tywin had agreed to the marriage, not Jaime. Jaime was, rather disgustedly, carrying out his father's orders. As I said earlier, I think Jaime has been trying to straddle the line between Lannister loyalty and meting out justice/acting with honor. I think he'll have to ultimately choose between the two.

He already chose between the two when he dealt with Edmure and gave shoot to kill orders for Jeyne..

All I see is him hoping Brienne finds her, and hoping that Sansa settles down with some no-name and gets herself out of "the game."

Which would of course be a tremendous boon to the Lannister throne that he is busy working to shore up were she to do so.... But, agree to disagree. :)

[brashcandy]

To be fair, Tywin had agreed to the marriage, not Jaime. Jaime was, rather disgustedly, carrying out his father's orders. As I said earlier, I think Jaime has been trying to straddle the line between Lannister loyalty and meting out justice/acting with honor. I think he'll have to ultimately choose between the two. I'm hoping he'll give a big middle finger to the Lannisters and go off with Brienne. But we'll see.

And again, I don't see any textual evidence that he'll do that to Sansa. All I see is him hoping Brienne finds her, and hoping that Sansa settles down with some no-name and gets herself out of "the game." Agree to disagree.

Personally, I think he's hoping Brienne will find her and hide her away. We'll find out when next we see him, I suppose.

:) I know we agreed to disagree, but this is precisely the point I think Alexia is trying to make: Jaime isn't hiding her away for some altruistic reasons, he's doing it because she would be a threat to Lannister interests. That line about her getting her head smashed by some knight is rich coming from him, when she spent her time getting beaten up by Joffrey's KG and ignored by Cersei.

[headtrip_honey]

He already chose between the two when he dealt with Edmure and gave shoot to kill orders for Jeyne..

Which would of course be a tremendous boon to the Lannister throne that he is busy working to shore up were she to do so.... But, agree to disagree. :)

But you see his aim being shoring up the Lannister throne, I see it being Sansa's safety.

But that's all I have left to say on this.