What Will Become of the Lannister Siblings, Part Deux

[Faint]

But if Aegon can conquer Westeros via a marriage alliance before Dany ever gets there, then why would Varys object?

Maybe because Daenerys is headed to Westeros with three angry dragons coming along with her?

[Ser Lepus]

For those of you that have read my theory about Cersei falling into a coma because of an overdose of the Tears Of Lys, and Jamie mercy-killing her strangling her with the Hand´s chain of golden hands, I have found fatal flaw in it: The poison that causes coma is called Sweesleep, not the Tears Of Lys, and that ruins it...

I´m really sad...my theory was a lovely object of love, a beautiful masterpiece, like a dainty figurine too delicate to exist in this horrible, horrible world....BUAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!! :crying:

Sniff...well I still am left the hope that Cersei will manage to ironically provoke the fulfillment of the prophecy and that Jamie will be the valonqar...

[ARYa_Nym]

Tyrion's convo might be foreshadowing.."My dragon-" "-is too far away to save you. You should have moved her to the center of the battle." "But you said-" "I lied. Trust no one. And keep your dragon close."

I think Tyrion will be the betrayal for love but if he's not I wonder if he will ever patch things up with Jaime. If Jaime is still alive by the time Dany gets there he is a potential meal for Drogon.

[brashcandy]

Jaime has never done a goddamn thing to Sansa Stark. Not one. He tried to kill Robb because he was on the other side in a war. THE VILLAINY!!!!!!!

As is always the case with Jaime, it comes back to Bran, because that's really the only incident worth holding against him. The rest is a bunch of meh and no more than would be expected of anyone, including the Starks, in a situation like this.

Jaime has done plenty to Sansa, starting with trying to murder her brother Bran to protect the woman that would later make Sansa's life a living hell. It was because of Jaime's actions that the war between the Lannisters and the Starks broke out, after Cat arrested Tyrion. It was because of Jaime's actions that Ned's entire guard from Winterfell was slaughtered - a guard that could have been instrumental in helping to protect Sansa and Arya when Ned got arrested (or may have prevented it). Jaime has done real harm to Sansa - not directly - but extremely damaging nonetheless.

I would mention the fact that Jaime is directly to blame for the monster Joffrey turned out to be as well.

As for fighting Robb in the war, sure, he can't be blamed for that. But his sudden desire to confess everything to Tommen and Myrcella, when he had previously been willing to kill others to secure their kingship, highlights the man's dangerous inconsistency and selfish motives. It would make Jaime Lannister feel very proud of himself that he did something to "help" Sansa. The point I'm making is that this is not help she needs. She needs the backing of powerful people who can protect her from the Lannisters and help her restore her home.

[brashcandy]

Personally I think Varys couldn't care less who Aegon marries. He wants Aegon on the throne and marrying Dany seemed the best way to make that happen. But if Aegon can conquer Westeros via a marriage alliance before Dany ever gets there, then why would Varys object?

Varys has seen firsthand the chaos that can come from unstable marriages. He would be an absolute fool not to be concerned over the woman Aegon marries.

[Wouter]

Tyrion's convo might be foreshadowing.."My dragon-" "-is too far away to save you. You should have moved her to the center of the battle." "But you said-" "I lied. Trust no one. And keep your dragon close."

Interestingly, if this is taken as foreshadowing then it seems to indicate that Aegon will be defeated (by the Tyrells?) and Dany+dragons are too far away to save him. If he had not trusted Tyrion and continued to Meereen as planned, this would not have happened.

I wonder if this is how it may turn out, Aegon vs the Tyrells is still left to play for and we don't know how it will go. What will Dorne do, what will Cersei do, what might LF do, when and where will Dany arrive, and with what intentions?

I don't think Martin is all that predictable, even with the Valonquar we seem to have a dozen theories in this thread alone.

[1234567]

As is always the case with Jaime, it comes back to Bran, because that's really the only incident worth holding against him.

Em there maybe a couple of Others... like Aerys...he could have restrained him as his father's men were in the city and then maybe he could have gone and checked Elia and the children were okay......and committing treason by fathering children wife the Queen, his sister is not too great either.....and killing Jory Castle and some other Stark men despite having sworn an Oath to the KG that meant your first loyalty is to the King not your family and then I know he was doing his best but if he really wanted to find and keep Sansa safe then he could have sent more than just Brienne who was going to look for Sansa anyway......

[The Lost Lord]

Varys has seen firsthand the chaos that can come from unstable marriages. He would be an absolute fool not to be concerned over the woman Aegon marries.

Well obviously Varys would prefer Aegon to make a good political marriage rather than a bad one! But the ridiculous scenarios being thrown around were that if Aegon wanted to marry Marg, Varys would like assassinate her or something to stop it, because he's set on Aegon/Dany. But look, Aegon's not going to marry a random serving girl. Whichever non-Dany person he marries -- Arianne, Myrcella, Sansa, or Marg -- will come with an army, and the deal will be made at a moment when winning the support of that army is absolutely crucial for Aegon's prospects. Connington's not an idiot to give away Aegon's hand for peanuts, and Robb Stark's behavior is the exception, not the rule.

Maybe because Daenerys is headed to Westeros with three angry dragons coming along with her?

They don't know that. They think she stopped in Meereen. News of her marriage to Hizdahr will come first. Then news of her disappearance. Then the rumors that she cruelly rejected and caused the death of the Prince of Dorne, which makes her a political liability for the one ally Aegon must win. Then the word that she's joined up with the Greyjoys (and potentially married to one) and coming with a terrifying Dothraki horde. Oh, and Barristan has promised Pentos to the Tattered Prince, so she'll stop there and cause chaos in Illyrio's city first.

[brashcandy]

Well obviously Varys would prefer Aegon to make a good political marriage rather than a bad one! But the ridiculous scenarios being thrown around were that if Aegon wanted to marry Marg, Varys would like assassinate her or something to stop it, because he's set on Aegon/Dany. But look, Aegon's not going to marry a random serving girl. Whichever non-Dany person he marries -- Arianne, Myrcella, Sansa, or Marg -- will come with an army, and the deal will be made at a moment when winning the support of that army is absolutely crucial for Aegon's prospects. Connington's not an idiot to give away Aegon's hand for peanuts, and Robb Stark's behavior is the exception, not the rule.

I don't know why you think Varys wouldn't resort to killing an unsuitable woman for Aegon. It's been a highly effective strategy since the opening of the series. Everyone kills people that they want to get rid of and Varys is the very last person that we've seen employing this method. The options of marriage are actually quite slim for Aegon, but I never suggested that he would throw away his hand for nothing. Think about Margaery - the girl is a black widow. There is no way Varys will let Aegon align with her, even if it brings Tyrell swords. Or he might hedge on an engagement and then do away with her before she do away with Aegon. Sansa seems like a bright prospect, but she's under the control of LF and with Rickon returning, the North is not going to be supportive of some Southron king. They'll declare for Rickon and remain independent. This really leaves Mrycella Baratheon and Arianne. Arianne is the most likely candidate out of the two, as Myrcella is known to be a bastard and Varys is hedging on her mother's self destruction. Plus he'll want to cleanse KL of Lannisters.

They don't know that. They think she stopped in Meereen. News of her marriage to Hizdahr will come first. Then news of her disappearance. Then the rumors that she cruelly rejected and caused the death of the Prince of Dorne, which makes her a political liability for the one ally Aegon must win. Then the word that she's joined up with the Greyjoys (and potentially married to one) and coming with a terrifying Dothraki horde. Oh, and Barristan has promised Pentos to the Tattered Prince, so she'll stop there and cause chaos in Illyrio's city first.

I think the news of her marriage to Hizdahr along with her disappearance and Quentyn's death will come all at the same time. We still have no way of knowing what Doran Martell will do. He may support Aegon or he might not. We also don't know if she gonna join up with the Greyjoys, and we certainly have no reason to expect she'll marry one. All of this speculation, gossip and uncertainty should work in Dany's favour however, as no one will be certain if she's still alive, what is up with Drogon, or even if she's still coming to Westeros. If she can get to Pentos and crush Illyrio, it will be one important step in taking out Varys and co.

[The Lost Lord]

I don't know why you think Varys wouldn't resort to killing an unsuitable woman for Aegon… Think about Margaery - the girl is a black widow. There is no way Varys will let Aegon align with her

Personally I don't think Marg-Aegon makes any sense, I was just listing it because that was the example offered. But if Marg is so obviously and clearly unsuitable, you have to assume that Aegon and Connington caught the stupid sickness to even be entertaining it. But they are not stupid, and they would only entertain such an offer if it's actually a good deal that can give Aegon the Iron Throne. And if it's a good deal that would give Aegon the Iron Throne, then Varys wouldn't act out to stop it. Unless of course he has a better deal in his pocket, and if he does he can just, like, tell them.

[brashcandy]

Personally I don't think Marg-Aegon makes any sense, I was just listing it because that was the example offered. But if Marg is so obviously and clearly unsuitable, you have to assume that Aegon and Connington caught the stupid sickness to even be entertaining it. But they are not stupid, and they would only entertain such an offer if it's actually a good deal that can give Aegon the Iron Throne. And if it's a good deal that would give Aegon the Iron Throne, then Varys wouldn't act out to stop it. Unless of course he has a better deal in his pocket, and if he does he can just, like, tell them.

They would only consider Marg if they needed the Tyrell armies. But if Marg goes down at her trial and the Tyrells blame the Lannisters, then they might not even need a marriage alliance to get them to switch sides.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I suggested that the Tyrells might do away with Tommen to garner favor with Aegon, but I also think that they would only do so if it appeared that Aegon was going to be victorious. In other words, they'd pull a Tywin, and poor Tommen (and perhaps Myrcella if she's there) would take the place of Rhaenys and Aegon. And Mace may offer Margaery to Aegon, because he's a dunce, but I don't think Aegon should or would go down that well=worn path.

I don't think Jaime has any plans for Sansa, only because I don't think he's into long-term planning. I do think that he's staked some of his honor on Brienne's rescue mission, whence the name of the sword Oathkeeper. I can't recall him and Brienne having any discussion about what to do with Sansa once she was found, however.

I hope Aegon doesn't fall for Arianne or do anything similarly stupid on the marriage front -- we've already had the-young-king-thnking-with-his-dick story. I don't see Sansa as a good, or even a possible, match for him either. The North is busy with Winter, Stannis and the Boltons, so Aegon wouldn't be getting any support from there through the marriage, any support from the Vale would be contingent on her marriage to Harry the Heir, and she certainly couldn't marry both of them, and I think the peace that Jaime imposed on the Riverlands is going to go to hell quite soon. And of course, Sansa still has an inconveniently living husband.

I know a lot of y'all see a glorious future for Sansa as Queen of this or Lady of that, but there's nothing in the text that indicates that she wants anything but a safe return to Winterfell. I think it would be a small victory for the women of Westeros if Sansa gets to do what she wants to do, and to hell with the arranged marriage game.

[The Lost Lord]

They would only consider Marg if they needed the Tyrell armies.

This doesn't explain why Aegon/Connington would go for this but Varys would go to such great lengths to prevent it. If the situation develops such that they need to marry Aegon to Marg to get the Tyrell armies (which as I say below, I view as very far-fetched), then Varys won't stop that unless he has another army in his back pocket (which he doesn't).

I suggested that the Tyrells might do away with Tommen to garner favor with Aegon, but I also think that they would only do so if it appeared that Aegon was going to be victorious.

I don't think Aegon/Tyrells makes any sense at all. The Tyrells currently control King's Landing, so they wouldn't just hand a share of power to Aegon or his Dornish allies for the heck of it. You say they'll do it if it looks like Aegon will win -- but if it looks like Aegon will win, then he won't need them! He will have already won sufficient support to make his victory imminent.

Martin's tell is the Golden Company saying they have "friends in the Reach." Mace's quest to make his daughter a queen has overstretched his resources and left the Reach open to attack by the ironborn. The Tyrells will either be overthrown, killed, or forced by their liege lords to go home and take care of business there.

[Alexia]

Am I the only taking plenty of glee in the impending Tyrell fall? I don't think they can flip to Aegon at this point; they have tied their flag too tightly to the sinking Lannister ship. And I do think they will fight tooth and nail to keep Margaery a queen. And between fighting Aegon and the Ironborn, and dealing with their KL problem...

*happy grin*

[Verboten]

I want Margaery and Loras to survive

[Verboten]

Possibly the Queen of Thorns, so Dany can learn that this is how you rule young lady

[Alexia]

I like Margaery but she has to die to break their hold on power. I feel kinda bad about Loras though; I'd like to see him survive.

[Verboten]

I like Margaery but she has to die to break their hold on power. I feel kinda bad about Loras though; I'd like to see him survive.

Baby swap! Or teen swap whatever, I want the Tyrell siblings to survive the world is not romantic enough without Loras and Margaery is like Sansa's ruthlessly pragmatic twin how will they ever have a political showdown full of the most backhanded compliments known to man if she's dead

[Verboten]

One day they shall be the female versions of Varys and Littlefinger, only less monsterous

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I don't think Aegon/Tyrells makes any sense at all. The Tyrells currently control King's Landing, so they wouldn't just hand a share of power to Aegon or his Dornish allies for the heck of it. You say they'll do it if it looks like Aegon will win -- but if it looks like Aegon will win, then he won't need them! He will have already won sufficient support to make his victory imminent.

The point is not that Aegon would need the Tyrells, the point is that the Tyrells would need Aegon to save their own asses. They could throw the gates of KL open to Aegon's army, present him with the bodies of the Baratheon heirs, and bend the knee. If they don't make a similar gesture, then Aegon could strip them of everything, and perhaps execute Mace for leading the besieging army. I don't think the Tyrells (at least the older generation) are willing to give up their lives for Tommen; they certainly didn't give up their lives for Renly.

And yeah, I'm looking forward to a Tyrell comeupance.

I'm also celebrating the takeover of Storm's End. Another one of my crackpot theories is that Mel's burning of the Storm's End godswood undermined the fortress' magical defenses, so the fall of Storm's End is a rebuke to that baby-burning fanatic.