What Will Become of the Lannister Siblings, Part Deux

[The Lost Lord]

The one great twist, of course -- not to the readers certainly but to Cersei -- will be that Jaime is going to be the one to kill her, not Tyrion. This is one of the more obvious Chekhov's guns I've ever encountered… Actually, in many ways, I think this entire scenario is rather clumsy writing and much too predictable.

And you don't think GRRM has thought one step ahead of you on this? I used to agree that it was Jaime but folks (Alexia particularly) have made me doubt it. Now I am seriously considering the idea that it's Tyrion and that it's always been Tyrion-- that he's becoming Tywin and he'll get his revenge, and it will be disturbing, not satisfying.

Was Quaithe wrong though? I can't remember, and feel free to correct me, but didn't she just warn Dany to be wary of them?

"Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others." (Full list follows) If Dany instead goes to Aegon and Connington (rather than them coming to her) that would seem to contradict what Quaithe says. However, when Quaithe said this, Aegon and Connington (and everyone else on the list) were all heading east, which is why I think she was seeing the present. We know the glass candles are for magical long-range communication and apparently Quaithe has a similar power to see and communicate across long distances. But can she see the future? I've seen no evidence of that yet.

Why do you think this? The prophecies seem to out her on guard concerning some people, and given her insight into what is happening in Westeros.

Well this is just speculation based on searching for another interpretation of the prophecies because they seem too straightforward for Martin (hero hears prophecies, fulfills them, saves world). And the weirdness of the Undying themselves as such an important but vague and underwritten element. (And "Undying" = "un-dead," and "blue and cold" implying they're on the "ice" side of "ice and fire," and if they are on that side, why give fire Dany a bunch of helpful prophecies?)

But it's also based on the "Macbeth" literary technique where the hearing of a prophecy plants a seed in a character's mind that may not have been there before. First of all the prophecies warn her of treasons, we know she's already on the lookout for them -- and GRRM has shown us what happened to Cersei when she got obsessively paranoid about stopping a "younger queen" and a "valonqar." Secondly they say she'll light a fire for death. What does this mean, and will the hearing of this prophecy lead her to do something she otherwise wouldn't do? Thirdly there's the corpse on a ship, who I think she'll figure out symbolizes Greyjoy, which might lead her toward a bad alliance with them. And finally of course slaying the lies of Stannis and the mummer's dragon, which will likely contribute to conflict with both of them. And there's nothing about the Others in there at all, which has always been the weirdest omission considering the common interpretations that we're heading for Dany vs. Others.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Yes. I feared nobody had read my post. I thought the idea of Dany tricking Euron into giving her all she needs to capture and sacrifice him hilarious.

I guess I have no sense of humour

Would that mean the dragon has SIX heads? I don't want to be around for those discussions!

I don't consider Quaithe's last message to Dany (beware the lion, yadda yadda) to be prophecy as much as the message many leaders receive -- trust no one. I hope she takes it, because clearly everyone around her has his own agenda.

I prefer to think of Maggy the Frog's prophecy as self-fulfilling, more of a curse than a prophecy. The lesson to be learned? Don't piss off a hedge witch.

[ipsuel]

<snip>

I do wonder sometimes if Martin is setting us up for the long troll with the Undying. Who are they? Why did they show Dany all those things? Why was talking to random future-seeing people the crux of Dany's plotline in book two? Why are they blue and cold, like the Others? There's got to be more to this than meets the eye. Dany seems to be coming to trust and believe the prophecies (from the Undying and Quaithe), which may prove to be a bad mistake for her.

I wonder as well. There must be more to them, something that we will find out later. These visions are a *huge* portion of the series (whether they all come to pass or not), and it all just seems very short-info'd. Who are they? What makes them important to Dany and what is Dany important to them? A continent away, a foreign land for Targaryens.... I guess I just need some explanation here about them.

Like I said, it's short-info'd.

[brashcandy]

And you don't think GRRM has thought one step ahead of you on this? I used to agree that it was Jaime but folks (Alexia particularly) have made me doubt it. Now I am seriously considering the idea that it's Tyrion and that it's always been Tyrion-- that he's becoming Tywin and he'll get his revenge, and it will be disturbing, not satisfying.

"Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others." (Full list follows) If Dany instead goes to Aegon and Connington (rather than them coming to her) that would seem to contradict what Quaithe says. However, when Quaithe said this, Aegon and Connington (and everyone else on the list) were all heading east, which is why I think she was seeing the present. We know the glass candles are for magical long-range communication and apparently Quaithe has a similar power to see and communicate across long distances. But can she see the future? I've seen no evidence of that yet.

Well this is just speculation based on searching for another interpretation of the prophecies because they seem too straightforward for Martin (hero hears prophecies, fulfills them, saves world). And the weirdness of the Undying themselves as such an important but vague and underwritten element. (And "Undying" = "un-dead," and "blue and cold" implying they're on the "ice" side of "ice and fire," and if they are on that side, why give fire Dany a bunch of helpful prophecies?)

But it's also based on the "Macbeth" literary technique where the hearing of a prophecy plants a seed in a character's mind that may not have been there before. First of all the prophecies warn her of treasons, we know she's already on the lookout for them -- and GRRM has shown us what happened to Cersei when she got obsessively paranoid about stopping a "younger queen" and a "valonqar." Secondly they say she'll light a fire for death. What does this mean, and will the hearing of this prophecy lead her to do something she otherwise wouldn't do? Thirdly there's the corpse on a ship, who I think she'll figure out symbolizes Greyjoy, which might lead her toward a bad alliance with them. And finally of course slaying the lies of Stannis and the mummer's dragon, which will likely contribute to conflict with both of them. And there's nothing about the Others in there at all, which has always been the weirdest omission considering the common interpretations that we're heading for Dany vs. Others.

Ok, LL. I agree with you that mis-interpretation of prophecies can cause more harm than good, and I would agree that blindly trusting somebody delivering prophecies is not a good idea. I think Martin has made people like Quaithe and the others making prophecies seem slightly shady and untrustworthy, and they could have ulterior, nefarious motives. Sometimes it's best to ignore the bloody things all together. If Cersei hadn't been so paranoid over Margaery being the younger Queen she might not have found herself at the mercy of the Faith.

Anyways, pertaining to the ones in the House of the Undying, I'm a bit rusty on all that they showed her, but I do think that what she saw was beneficial. The one where she sees the beautiful woman being molested by the rat men is thought to be Westeros being scourged by the war of the kings. So if Dany is able to decipher this she may realise that conquering Westeros would only add to their troubles.

As for Quaithe not seeing into the future, I think you might be taking her words too literally. It doesn't mean that literally everyone is coming to Daenerys, but it could just mean that these are people she will interact with and have to be on the look out for.

[Silverin]

And you don't think GRRM has thought one step ahead of you on this? I used to agree that it was Jaime but folks (Alexia particularly) have made me doubt it. Now I am seriously considering the idea that it's Tyrion and that it's always been Tyrion-- that he's becoming Tywin and he'll get his revenge, and it will be disturbing, not satisfying.

I think so too that it will be tyrion.

"Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others." (Full list follows) If Dany instead goes to Aegon and Connington (rather than them coming to her) that would seem to contradict what Quaithe says. However, when Quaithe said this, Aegon and Connington (and everyone else on the list) were all heading east, which is why I think she was seeing the present. We know the glass candles are for magical long-range communication and apparently Quaithe has a similar power to see and communicate across long distances. But can she see the future? I've seen no evidence of that yet.

At first I was so sure it was a prophecy (since in fantasy stories speaking in riddle=prophecy, I know, my bad), but I too think that she saw the present. Not to mention I think Quaithe wants Dany to go to Ashai. Quaithe said to dany she should trust no one. But then why should she trust in Quaithe? Quaithe telling dany she has to go to the shadow first and east and south, and guess what, at that direction you can find Ashai. I am not sure Quathe wants to help Dany more than for example Quentyn wanted. And Ashai can't be such a friendly place because if I remember correctly Xaro and Jorah was just as alarmed by her as they were by Pyat. Lets just say it doesn't seem like Ashai has a good reputation.

And the trust no one thing: I don't think it means that they have neccesserly ulterior motives and want bad to Dany. It just means they have a reason for joining Dany, for example in Quentyn's case Dany even knew that he wanted revenge for his family. And when it seemed dany can't deliver it to him, he decided to act on his own. These people won't join dany for her pretty purple eyes and silvery hair. Their alliance has a price, it is not for free and if Dany does not pay that they will go to their own route, and if that route crosses Dany's they will go against her.

Well this is just speculation based on searching for another interpretation of the prophecies because they seem too straightforward for Martin (hero hears prophecies, fulfills them, saves world). And the weirdness of the Undying themselves as such an important but vague and underwritten element. (And "Undying" = "un-dead," and "blue and cold" implying they're on the "ice" side of "ice and fire," and if they are on that side, why give fire Dany a bunch of helpful prophecies?)

Good catch about the possible connection to the Others. Not to mention that they said to Dany that some things she sees are things that could happen but maybe never will. Like her vision about Rhaego and the burning city. I only cought that. Quaithe sais to dany "Remember the Undying" I guess most people thought from this about the three betrayal prophecy but from Xaro we learn they are out to take revenge on Dany for burning the House, and guess what one of their pals (Euron) just decided to seek her out. I don't think they role is done yet.

Didn't Mel say once something similar? That what she sees in the flames can be things that can happen as well? Or am I mixing up?

hey showing a bunch of helpful prophecies when they actually wanted to take her dragons away seems kinde strange to me.

It could harm her though. for example the thing about the three betrayal. She thinks that two already happened (MMD, Jorah), and the third can be whoever poisoned the food. But it is all left to interpretation since BBP betrayed her as well. That is already more than three, and some probably didn't happen yet. So maybe she won't be alarmed, since she thinks the three already happened, and the last one will compeletly take her unguarded. Or in reality in every single case the real number is four. They just said three, since that sounds more magical, and since that way she won't finish her job (fire, ride) and won't awaite for a fourth betrayal..

Whoever said that the Maggy prophecy was a mistake, I agree. I don't think it was necessery to bring up to explain Cersei's paranoia. So I guess it is reason for missleading. Like according to it it seems so sure that both Myrcella and Tommen will die. But that is exactly why I have the hope that one of them will stay alive. And because I love them too much.

[Alexia]

And you don't think GRRM has thought one step ahead of you on this? I used to agree that it was Jaime but folks (Alexia particularly) have made me doubt it. Now I am seriously considering the idea that it's Tyrion and that it's always been Tyrion-- that he's becoming Tywin and he'll get his revenge, and it will be disturbing, not satisfying.

It is nice to convince people of things on occasion. Yeah, I'm thinking that Tyrion is on his villain arc and that it might be completed when he actually rapes and murders his sister in glee. One other score against Jaime is that he's one handed too and it would be difficult to strangle an adult woman one handed. Also, Tyrion has already strangled a woman -- this is his M.O., his murder style.

[mcb]

It is nice to convince people of things on occasion. Yeah, I'm thinking that Tyrion is on his villain arc and that it might be completed when he actually rapes and murders his sister in glee.

You wrote it as if murdering Cersei would be a bad thing.

[Verboten]

You wrote it as if murdering Cersei would be a bad thing.

Raping and murdering your sister can never be a good thing.

[Cold Mist]

Forgive me for not being entirely familiar with the contents of this thread or the last, but has anyone put forth the theory that the High Septon may be the valonquar?

He is many times described as small in stature, and if I am not mistaken dresses in the fashion of a begging brother.

Just a thought.

[mcb]

Raping and murdering your sister can never be a good thing.

I'm with you on rape (and I don't believe Tyrion will rape Cersei). But as for murder, I'm perfectly OK with Joffrey's, for example.

[The Lost Lord]

It is nice to convince people of things on occasion. Yeah, I'm thinking that Tyrion is on his villain arc and that it might be completed when he actually rapes and murders his sister in glee.

I definitely don't think GRRM would have Tyrion rape her.

I'm with you on rape (and I don't believe Tyrion will rape Cersei). But as for murder, I'm perfectly OK with Joffrey's, for example.

Well Martin complicated even Joffrey's death a little by showing his terror, by which he surely intended to prevent readers from enjoying the moment 100%. But regardless, Joffrey was in power at the time.

I think that under most plausible scenarios where Tyrion strangles Cersei, she has already been defeated and taken prisoner. (How else would he get close enough to strangle her?) And strangling isn't exactly the death penalty or even "bring me a block." It's Tyrion choosing to personally choke the life out of his defeated/imprisoned sister, either because he's lost himself in rage or because he's rationally chosen to do it because he thinks he'll enjoy it. And if Tyrion gets to that point I can't see GRRM making it a moment for us to enjoy, considering his previous handling of the theme of revenge (UnCat).

[iamthedave]

Was it prophesied that Rickon and Bran would die? Have I missed something? Can I get a quote?

If so, it is possible that it means that the Stark boys will never reappear.

The suggestion is that as far as the world is concerned they're dead, so it's as if they were. They 'died' in order to disappear. At this point I think it unlikely Bran will ever reappear (his position is pretty unreachable), though it seems likely Rickon will return.

It's one of those things were it's 'metaphorically' true, hence why MCB pointed it out.

But still, I don't see many other survivors from Winterfell running about. Just because a prophecy conveniently fails to kill any important characters doesn't make it less true... just convenient.

It is nice to convince people of things on occasion. Yeah, I'm thinking that Tyrion is on his villain arc and that it might be completed when he actually rapes and murders his sister in glee. One other score against Jaime is that he's one handed too and it would be difficult to strangle an adult woman one handed. Also, Tyrion has already strangled a woman -- this is his M.O., his murder style.

He did ask for a crossbow when the Second Sons asked and said he'd killed nine people, on the grounds that Tywin had to count for that many.

I think saying it's his 'M.O.' is a bit ridiculous. he's not a serial killer. If I recall, of the people we know he's killed, some were done by mace, one by crossbow, and one by a golden chain. Tyrion twisted the links, he didn't strangle her in the traditional sense, and as Dance goes on (and on, and on, and on) about, the crossbow's twang is what haunts him the most, not the strangling of Shae, though that does feature heavily in his thoughts as well.

But I can imagine he'd want to throttle Cersei with his own two hands, yes. I for one will cheer, no matter how Martin tries to set it up, the same as I did when Joffrey died. He deserved it, and so does his mother.

[Alexia]

I definitely don't think GRRM would have Tyrion rape her.

There was a time when I would have agreed with you. Ah, how I miss those days of sweet innocence. That was before GRRM wrote that disgusting wedding scene with Jeyne, and had Cersei paraded naked through the streets of KL. I hope he would not write it but I would not put it past him at all anymore.

The scene I envision would take place in Casterly Rock after Tyrion attacks the place. He marches in to find Cersei crying in fear and promptly assaults her.

[Faint]

And you don't think GRRM has thought one step ahead of you on this? I used to agree that it was Jaime but folks (Alexia particularly) have made me doubt it. Now I am seriously considering the idea that it's Tyrion and that it's always been Tyrion-- that he's becoming Tywin and he'll get his revenge, and it will be disturbing, not satisfying.

No, not particularly. I've never found GRRM -- despite his reputation, especially among those that have never actually read him -- to be much of a hide the ball author. All the developments within his books, while shocking in comparison to most standard fare fantasy series (i.e., good people dying un-heroically), are never shocking in the sense that they are unexpected as you read through his story. In other words, GRRM always leaves a lot of groundwork. I acknowledge some disagreement on this point among fans, but I truly feel that when people are shocked by developments in the story -- say, Ned dying -- this is only because they have been conditioned to not expect such in general fantasy (at least not until recently, the fantasy genre having evolved greatly since 1996).

In any case, what makes the case against Jaime specifically unconvincing, at least in my mind, is that Cersei never suspects Jaime and we, as readers, just happen to be informed that Jaime was born seconds before Cersei. That fact, in itself, can only manifest as being important in one way. More generally, I feel the story is simply headed in that direction. Take note of every Jaime mention in Cersei's POV in the latest book. That's what I call "groundwork."

[Alexia]

That fact, in itself, can only manifest as being important in one way.

I actually disagree. As the eldest, if Cersei were male, she would be heir. Because she is female she is only chattel instead. That is a theme and a major source of resentment in her storyline.

Plus, we learned that Cersei was born first in ACOK if I recall correctly. I firmly believe the prophecy about Maggy was a retcon (as is a ton of crap when it comes to AFFC/ADWD Cersei and Jaime, but I don't even want to get started there).

[brashcandy]

I don't know... the idea of Tyrion killing Cersei would not be a satisfactory outcome to that story. Besides being the one Cersei actually expects, thereby making it ridiculously obvious, Tyrion as a double kinslayer would be overkill's overkill, and I actually hope that Martin is going to redeem his character. I still think it's going to be Gendry, but that's just my crackpot.

[1234567]

The Maggy the Frog prophecy seems so out of place to me because we only first here of it in book 4. If Cersei had killed her friend at that tender age then I wonder why she didn't just kill Tyrion then and there. He would have been a toddler and it would have been easy for her to do. From the Tyrion and Oberyn chapter in ASOS, Cersei's cruelty towards her little brother is evident.

Cersei's logic is never the best. I could be completely wrong, but is there any other foreshadowing that Jaime will be the one to kill her other than her statements about her and Jaime leaving the world together and the Maggy the Frog prophecy?

[iamthedave]

I don't know... the idea of Tyrion killing Cersei would not be a satisfactory outcome to that story. Besides being the one Cersei actually expects, thereby making it ridiculously obvious, Tyrion as a double kinslayer would be overkill's overkill, and I actually hope that Martin is going to redeem his character. I still think it's going to be Gendry, but that's just my crackpot.

Personally, my top reason for why it won't be Tyrion is that he never lets characters get revenge, especially when it's on people who deserve it most.

Even Danaerys and Arya, one who has a list of possible 'revenge victims' as long as her arm and the other who has been mumbling the same words for at least a dozen chapters by now, are looking perilously close to failing to kill a single major person on their list. Arya managed to get The Tickler, which makes her - I think - the most successful revenger in the series to date.

I'm pretty sure the ship's sailed on everyone Dany could reasonably want to roast with the exception of Jaime.

[Faint]

I'm hoping for neither but am absolutely convinced it will be Jaime and that the prophecy will play out in a more obvious way than many seem to expect.

If it was up to me, I would scrap the entire prophecy. It was a terrible idea to start with and will just become worse as time goes on.

I mean, even for those that do not believe the obvious choices for the prophecy, I'm curious to hear what you guys will think if it does turn out that Tommen dies, Myrcella is crowned then dies, Daenerys strips the Lannisters from power, and, finally, Jaime chokes Cersei to death.

I know that I would hate that series of events (even though I believe that's pretty much how it will play out) but what do you guys think?

[Alexia]

Personally, my top reason for why it won't be Tyrion is that he never lets characters get revenge, especially when it's on people who deserve it most.

Catelyn's getting revenge. She's even getting revenge on Jaime.

I think it all comes down to who the younger and more beautiful queen is. If that queen is Dany, then the valonquar is Tyrion. If it is Sansa, then I think it has a greater chance of being some priest. Margaery is doomed so I'm discounting her at this point.