Unpopular opinions, more of them

[voodooqueen126]

Nice idea- but no dice. Tywin wouldn't have ruined his grandson and king's wedding just to kill his hated son.

He's also expecting Tyrion to impregnate Sansa so that a Lannister can take Winterfell.

Tywin simply despised Tyrion and hated him for being a dwarf, a living walking mockery of everything he believed House Lannister was.

Tywin may have despised Tyrion's dwarfism and his grossness... but he still respected his intelligence. Tywin needed Tyrion alive so that Tyrion could rape Sansa, knock her up and take Ned Stark's grandchild North and thus have a Lannister controlling the North.

Random thought: in todays society is quite common to despise (subconsciously atleast) the retarded or the not very clever, but in a more martial/backward society like Westeros, the tendency is to despise the physically weak or deformed. So Tywin was perfectly capable of recognising Tyrion's intellect (and using it to further Lannister power in an area previously unaffected by the Andals), but still despising Tyrion for his dwarfism.

[Lord Mormont's Raven]

Erm - sorry to be going back to the "Cersei is pregnant" matter again, but I really don't buy that.

I'd like to point out a few physical facts:

I had mentioned this in another thread, and people generally seem to think she is just turning into a fat drunken sot like Robert. But the text specifically mentions, twice, her gowns being too tight around the MIDDLE. If this was just weight gain, I think Jaime would have been happy to insult her over it. Also, this could be part of why her breasts seem so saggy on her walk; pregnancy causes them to swell almost immediately in later pregnancies.

If you put on weight due to overeating and/or drinking too much, where would you expect the weight to show, if not around the middle? So, seriously, just because your clothes are too tight around the middle is no proof of a pregnancy as opposed to "normal" weight gain.

I'd also like to point out that weight gain is a typical phenomenon of the menopause, as many women can testify. Couple that with heavy drinking and you'll soon be out of shape.

Lastly, saggy breasts - it's true that a pregnancy will make your breasts swell (in preparation for breastfeeding), often at a very early stage. But as I understand it saggy is the exact opposite of swollen, isn't it? Saggy means they hang down sadly and "wobble" more than before because they've lost their firmness. Anyone who's ever been pregnant knows that that's not what pregnant breasts feel like. On the contrary, they become more rounded and firmer.

Saggy breasts are a sign of age and also of the menopause, not at all of pregnancy.

She may still have had her cycles during the first months of pregnancy, so it would depend how far into the pregnancy she is by now. And you are right about the upheaval. I don't think she would have paid it much attention during her imprisonment.

The more I think about it, the more likely it seems. ... Thinking about it, you are probably right that Jaime is the father of the child.

Do we ever hear anything about her having her cycles or not, lately? Anyway in early pregnancy one can certainly experience bleeding, and at the same time the bleeding can stay away for other reasons than pregnancy, such as stress or (again) the menopause. So I believe this matter is neither an argument for nor an argument against.

What I want to know is why - IF she's pregnant - Jaime should be the father. I always thought that the fact that she was having her period when they last slept together was put in by GRRM precisely to make sure nobody got the idea that she might have got pregnant then.

LMR

who happens to be pregnant at the moment and whose breasts have never been less saggy in her life. :D

[lyvyathan]

Tywin may have despised Tyrion's dwarfism and his grossness... but he still respected his intelligence. Tywin needed Tyrion alive so that Tyrion could rape Sansa, knock her up and take Ned Stark's grandchild North and thus have a Lannister controlling the North.

Random thought: in todays society is quite common to despise (subconsciously atleast) the retarded or the not very clever, but in a more martial/backward society like Westeros, the tendency is to despise the physically weak or deformed. So Tywin was perfectly capable of recognising Tyrion's intellect (and using it to further Lannister power in an area previously unaffected by the Andals), but still despising Tyrion for his dwarfism.

Yes we all know that Tywin knew that Tyrion was smart - he did make him "Hand" and told him to reign in his sister and grandson.

But clearly it didn't extend to offering him his protection when Joff was murdered. So to a large extent Tywin still underestimated and despised his son for the reasons I mentioned.

[Alexia]

But clearly it didn't extend to offering him his protection when Joff was murdered. So to a large extent Tywin still underestimated and despised his son for the reasons I mentioned.

Why on Earth would he try to protect Tyrion from justice if he believes that Tyrion tried to kill Joffrey? To say nothing of the fact that whatever he personally believes, Cersei has publicly accused Tyrion of killing Joffrey and Mace Tyrell (whose army they need) is foaming at the mouth over the attempt on his daughter's life.

[alienarea]

The books are overrated.

[FanTasy]

Ow ... I first thought the weight gain was something that fitted in the picture of making Cersei frightened, because the conditions in the prophecy she fears is going to be fulfilled. Her position and her physical attractiveness have always been her weapons, her trump cards in the game.

Her growing older and probably less attractive, that must be very disturbing for her. And she starts beginning to doubt that Jaime still loves her. She knows she has lost her power over him, even before gaining weight.

I missed the chick-in-the egg ... good catch.

What would a pregnancy do for Cersei's storyline in the next book? It would probably hasten her downfall. It would be seen as proof of her unproper behaviour - and it would cause her losing Jaime, who would not be convinced that the child would be his. Tyrions words are still in Jaime's mind.

[voodooqueen126]

Why on Earth would he try to protect Tyrion from justice if he believes that Tyrion tried to kill Joffrey? To say nothing of the fact that whatever he personally believes, Cersei has publicly accused Tyrion of killing Joffrey and Mace Tyrell (whose army they need) is foaming at the mouth over the attempt on his daughter's life.

Furthermore, with Sansa lost...Tyrion could no longer take the North. So not only is Tyrion guilty of murder (to the best of Tywin's knowledge), but he is also now useless.

[Raksha the Demon]

Erm - sorry to be going back to the "Cersei is pregnant" matter again, but I really don't buy that.

I'd like to point out a few physical facts:

If you put on weight due to overeating and/or drinking too much, where would you expect the weight to show, if not around the middle? So, seriously, just because your clothes are too tight around the middle is no proof of a pregnancy as opposed to "normal" weight gain.

I'd also like to point out that weight gain is a typical phenomenon of the menopause, as many women can testify. Couple that with heavy drinking and you'll soon be out of shape.

Lastly, saggy breasts - it's true that a pregnancy will make your breasts swell (in preparation for breastfeeding), often at a very early stage. But as I understand it saggy is the exact opposite of swollen, isn't it? Saggy means they hang down sadly and "wobble" more than before because they've lost their firmness. Anyone who's ever been pregnant knows that that's not what pregnant breasts feel like. On the contrary, they become more rounded and firmer.

Saggy breasts are a sign of age and also of the menopause, not at all of pregnancy.

Do we ever hear anything about her having her cycles or not, lately? Anyway in early pregnancy one can certainly experience bleeding, and at the same time the bleeding can stay away for other reasons than pregnancy, such as stress or (again) the menopause. So I believe this matter is neither an argument for nor an argument against.

What I want to know is why - IF she's pregnant - Jaime should be the father. I always thought that the fact that she was having her period when they last slept together was put in by GRRM precisely to make sure nobody got the idea that she might have got pregnant then.

LMR

who happens to be pregnant at the moment and whose breasts have never been less saggy in her life. :D

I don't think that Cersei is necessarily pregnant, just perhaps aging as a normal woman who has had three children (and perhaps nursed them) and doesn't go swimming or jogging or power-walking or working out at the gym regularly. But isn't Cersei a bit young for menopause, only in her mid-thirties?

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

Maybe, but isn't the life expectancy in Westeros kinda low? So maybe menopause would hit earlier. I'm not sure how that would work.

[Woman of War]

Yes, Cersei IS too young for menopause. It is interesting that the fertility period of women still is about the same like in middle ages, given the same level of nutrition and health. Menarche depends of body fat and menopause comes earlier from smoking or general exhaustion. But Cersei is healthy and well nourished. A short time before Tywin still wanted to sell her as marriage material, a good deal because she is still fertile. Every woman, even the most fertile and attractive, will show signs after three pregnancies. Otherwise it's silicone or photoshop!

AND girls, don't believe that crap that a woman can't get pregnant if she has sex during her period. DANGEROUS NONSENSE!

[Lord Mormont's Raven]

AND girls, don't believe that crap that a woman can't get pregnant if she has sex during her period. DANGEROUS NONSENSE!

Aaaaaaaaargh, of course this is dangerous nonsense!!!! I really hope my last post wasn't seen as me advocating old women's tales like that. Of course it is possible to get pregnant during your period. However, it is statistically less likely. Not unlikely to the point that you can use the calendar as a secure means of contraception, but still, statistically.

Did Tywin want to marry Cersei off so she could have (strategically valuable) children by another man, or did he just want to marry her off to get her out of his way at KL, and to take political power away from her? In what way might Cersei's children - by whoever - be strategically valuable? Except to cause even more confusion and conflicts of interest?

[FanTasy]

<Did Tywin want to marry Cersei off so she could have (strategically valuable) children by another man, or did he just want to marry her off to get her out of his way at KL, and to take political power away from her? In what way might Cersei's children - by whoever - be strategically valuable? Except to cause even more confusion and conflicts of interest?>

Wasn't Tywin the Hand at that moment? So he had all the political power he needed. Cersei was 'just' mother to the acting king. I'm not sure if she had a seat in the Small Council at that time, have to get back to the text for that.

Children were always strategically valuable. You don't go to war against the House you're wife comes from, you're supposed to support the claims of her House. Alliances were made by marriage and by securing bloodlines.

[Alexia]

Tywin wanted Cersei away from Joffrey and Tommen. Tywin was only Hand because Cersei named him Hand and she did sit in the small council. He wanted her out of KL and away from power.

[Balerion the Black Kitten]

Did Tywin want to marry Cersei off so she could have (strategically valuable) children by another man, or did he just want to marry her off to get her out of his way at KL, and to take political power away from her? In what way might Cersei's children - by whoever - be strategically valuable? Except to cause even more confusion and conflicts of interest?

I think he wanted her out of the way (I don't think Tywin was very happy about her influence on Joffery) and because it would be useful for securing ties between house Lannister and whatever house she married into.

Having Lannister grandkids in charge of another powerful house would always be a good thing for Tywin as it would increase their influence but Cersei's fertility would be more important to a prospective husband than to Tywin, unless he (the husband) already had kids he wouldn't want a wife who couldn't give him any.

[FanTasy]

Tywin wanted Cersei away from Joffrey and Tommen. Tywin was only Hand because Cersei named him Hand and she did sit in the small council. He wanted her out of KL and away from power.

Are you sure? In the appendix of ASOS, the Small Council is stated as:

Tywin Lannister, Hand of the King; Kevan Lannister, master of laws; Petyr Baelish, master of coin; Varys, master of whisperers; Mace Tyrell, master of ships; Grand Maester Pycelle.

Tywin was named by Joffrey in the scene in the throne room, where his horse did 'homage' to the king.

[headtrip_honey]

Are you sure? In the appendix of ASOS, the Small Council is stated as:

Tywin Lannister, Hand of the King; Kevan Lannister, master of laws; Petyr Baelish, master of coin; Varys, master of whisperers; Mace Tyrell, master of ships; Grand Maester Pycelle.

Tywin was named by Joffrey in the scene in the throne room, where his horse did 'homage' to the king.

Cersei sat on the small council as Queen Regent, since Joff (and later Tommen) wasn't of age yet. Normally the King would sit on the small council.

[FanTasy]

Cersei sat on the small council as Queen Regent, since Joff (and later Tommen) wasn't of age yet. Normally the King would sit on the small council.

Good point, I forgot that. The Small Council gave council to the king, Cersei was Queen Regent.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

IIRC, Tywin states having more children as one of his primary reasons for wanting Cersei married asap. He says something along the lines of every child she births further disproving Stannis's incest story.

BTW, there really is no reason why Jaime has to be the father, if she is pregnant. It could be Lancel (which would be interesting, because with his Lannister family coloring, everyone would assume it was Jaime's); or it could be Osney and produce a black haired child, which would 1. lend credibility to Stannis's incest story, since it will show that any children she had with Roberr should have had black hair (according to their rather disorganized and inconsistent methods of determining paternity); and 2. It would finally convince Jaime 100% that Cersei had been screwing around. It is too bad for Cersei that they seem to determine paternity based on a child's hair color, but then of course they know nothing about modern genetics. I have three sons; one of them got my jet black hair, the other two are light blondes like their father. So it can totally go either way.

Btw, I mentioned the breasts sagging because they would fall more heavily if they were swollen, due to the fact that the skin has already been stretched out and loosened from prior pregnancies. When I was on my fourth pregnancy, I promise you, miracle bras were my best friends because the weight of the swelling was not flattering at all.

[Tini]

Did Tywin want to marry Cersei off so she could have (strategically valuable) children by another man, or did he just want to marry her off to get her out of his way at KL, and to take political power away from her? In what way might Cersei's children - by whoever - be strategically valuable? Except to cause even more confusion and conflicts of interest?

There is the question of the Lannister heir. Jaime preferred the King's Guard to being his father's heir; Tyrion was never an acceptable option in Tywin's eyes. That makes Cersei the heir. Joffrey is dead, Tommen is king. Which means that Casterly Rock will go to Myrcella in the next generation. Unless Cersei has another (legitimate) son. I'm sure that Tywin would have preferred a grandson to inherit Casterly Rock, and he'd have raised the boy himself. Especially since he considers women worthless.

[Jory]

I want Daenerys to be the bad guy.