Sandor Clegane v. 11

[Hound's She-wolf]

I will disagree a bit here, I certainly don't want to waste space in a Sandor thread talking about Tyrion, but I do think Tyrion is a rapist, he might not have raped Sansa, but there are still two other women whom he forced.

OK, so back to Sandor. At the time of his death bed speech to Arya, he is an emotional wreck who does not have the ability to verbalize what he is feeling in a non-threatening, non awful way. He is also trying to goad Arya into killing him and I think telling someone that you should have fucked their sister bloody and ripped her heart out is a good way to get stabbed, especially if that person is Arya.

[1234567]

I always get so confused as to why people read that line literally. Where else has he ever expressed any notion to harm Sansa!

Also the sentence says I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf. The before in this context works in the same way as "rather than". Otherwise the sentence would mean that he knew Tyrion was going to marry her, which he didn't. I actually find it difficult to understand how anyone could see that line in any other context, as it doesn't linguistically make sense any other way.

Actually the really ambiguous line IMHO is "I meant to take her". That could have the meaning of take her with me, or take her by force.

[Woman of War]

But Loras and Renly had a balanced relationship between equals, they seem to have loved and enjoyed each other, I even believe that in that case the younger was the stronger one. Whereas Sandor, who is a killer without remorse, fancies a child who is in no way a match to him, he could squash her any time, never sees her as whole personality and as soon as she does not fulfil the image he has of her any more he threatens to get abusive and murderous. Apart from that Loras has really lost Renly to death whereas Sansa simply is not there where Sandor would like her to be. He is only assuming that Sansa would be unhappy with Tyrion, he can't even know it, he does not even consider the possibility that Sansa might have other ideas about personal happiness than he has for her. So the seven have mercy if she ever decides not to live up to his idea of her and to be happy without him and he finds her. He'd be the typical dangerous stalker

Edit: apparently the same posters who consider Tyrion's verbal atrocities against Cersei as thoroughly serious believe that Sandor's equally atrocious threads against Sansa are to be excused with all kinds of complicated explanations.

[headtrip_honey]

That's your reading. Clearly many disagree with you.

(null)

[Alexia]

Loras was Renly's squire. I'm not really seeing the relationship between equals here. It actually appears to have overtones of abuse of power, in fact. Plus, the whole addition of Margaery to the triangle is really disturbing. This is not a relationship that I would suggest anyone see as a role model for their own life, anymore than I would suggest SanSan as one.

But, unhealthy and twisted relationships are the most interesting IMO. If Loras and Renly's relationship had been fleshed out more, I'm sure I would enjoy it as much as SanSan.

[1234567]

Whereas Sandor, who is a killer without remorse, fancies a child who is in no way a match to him, he could squash her any time, never sees her as whole personality and as soon as she does not fulfil the image he has of her any more he threatens to get abusive and murderous.

Sandor is a killer without remorse. So are many of the other characters, including Tyrion. Personally anyone finding Sansa attractive is icky. She is a little girl. Even GRRM has said he wised he'd made the children older. I personally always imagine Sansa to be older than she is.

Actually though Sandor is the only person who Sansa opens up with. She challanges what he says without being afraid. With everyone else she is guarded, in case it is a trap for her to speak treason. Sansa's own feelings suggest that she feels safe with him. He has protected her and given her advice. He knows more about her personality than anyone else. I don't think Sandor has an image of what Sansa should be. If anything, when they first meet he assumes she is another fake little lady. It is only when she comforts him when he tells her about his face that he begins to see she is different.

He is only assuming that Sansa would be unhappy with Tyrion, he can't even know it, he does not even consider the possibility that Sansa might have other ideas about personal happiness that he has for her.

You have to admit he was right though. Sansa actually gave up her escape plans in order to marry Willas. Did she keep them on hold when she was forced to marry Tyrion? Hell no. The escape was back on with avengence. She describes being with him as torment. He embarrasses her to death and she makes Tyrion feel awful about himself. Those chapters where they were married were horrible to read for both of them. They made each other miserable. In fact there is even a possible hint that Sansa was considering suicide.

Had Joff not been murdered, Tyrion would have found his wife gone the next day either way.

[Alexia]

Oh, and moreover, Loras, Renly, and every other knight out there (and many non-knights) are also remorseless killers. This isn't unique to Sandor, in any way.

[Woman of War]

Renly may have been the boss, but not every relationship between boss and subordinate is necessarily abusive, although there is a certain danger of course. And I believe that Margaery was well informed about Renly and Loras, she strikes me as not at all naive and why should she not want her gay brother happy?

But, unhealthy and twisted relationships are the most interesting IMO.

everybody who ever heard of Tolstoy would agree but this is no reason to ship a so far nonexisting relationship in Bella/Edward manner, Stephanie Meyer's books are children's books and I believe most posters here are grownups who have heard about child abuse, domestic violence, stalking and all that nasty man-woman stuff that fills the newspapers. Stuff that should not be romanticized. So we should leave Martin's characters in Westeros between book covers and not try to form real life love stories for them and to slip our RL fancies on them - my opinion, otherwise the whole bunch of characters, male and female, above fourteen would justly end in prison, because they are murderers and war criminals.

Edit: yes, of course Tyrion's and Sansa's relationship was a disaster so far, but Sandor had no way to know that and he did not even consider another possibility.

[brashcandy]

Loras was Renly's squire. I'm not really seeing the relationship between equals here. It actually appears to have overtones of abuse of power, in fact. Plus, the whole addition of Margaery to the triangle is really disturbing. This is not a relationship that I would suggest anyone see as a role model for their own life, anymore than I would suggest SanSan as one.

But, unhealthy and twisted relationships are the most interesting IMO. If Loras and Renly's relationship had been fleshed out more, I'm sure I would enjoy it as much as SanSan.

Really good point here, Alexia. The Loras/Renly/Margaery "arrangement" takes the cake for perverted relationships, but hey, it was working fine for them! This is what should be paramount at the end of the day: if Sansa is happy with Sandor then that's what matters. She clearly was not happy with Tyrion.

[Hound's She-wolf]

Oh, and moreover, Loras, Renly, and every other knight out there (and many non-knights) are also remorseless killers. This isn't unique to Sandor, in any way.

And so is Arya, a remorseless killer at the ripe old age of... what ten?

[Alexia]

How do people think Robb would have reacted if Sandor had arrived with Arya in tow? I for one think that Sandor would have had a place in the Stark household (wouldn't that be awesome? a job where he isn't called a dog!) although not with the same level of prestige and responsibility that he had with the Lannisters.

That's one scene I would have loved to have read -- Sandor returning Arya to the Starks in his farmer getup...

[brashcandy]

Renly may have been the boss, but not every relationship between boss and subordinate is necessarily abusive, although there is a certain danger of course. And I believe that Margaery was well informed about Renly and Loras, she strikes me as not at all naive and why should she not want her gay brother happy?

No one is suggesting Renly forced Loras into bed, but it was still a relationship based on unequal power dynamics. You really can't deny that the Renly/Marg/Loras situation wasn't twisted, can you? It goes beyond wanting her gay brother to be happy. She was married to Renly and very much prepared to carry on a public charade where she would bear his children, and her brother would warm his bed. I have no problem with it, but hell yes, it was twisted. I for one am I really hoping that we get a Tyrell POV in TWOW - either Marg or Loras, (or even Willas), that can shed some more light on what exactly happened there.

Edit: yes, of course Tyrion's and Sansa's relationship was a disaster so far, but Sandor had no way to know that and he did not even consider another possibility.

What other possibility? Sansa is a prisoner of the Lannisters, and Sandor knows she is being treated horribly and wants to go home. Why would he consider anything other than the fact that it was a forced marriage and she is bitterly unhappy.

[Woman of War]

I believe that Sansa chose to trust Sandor in a certain way because he was not in a position to harm her as long as he worked for Joffrey. He may have been a sort of confessor or father replacement for her, natural, after all he is more than twice her age. In a way she could trust him because he had no reason to betray her. Fortunately she was too young to understand that he intended to rape her, she felt threatened but not in a sexual manner, her luck, otherwise she would have been thoroughly disturbed. So she might continue trusting him - until, being older, she realizes that Sandor has completely different ideas about their interactions than she has. She will wake up and know what to be afraid of.

[brashcandy]

I believe that Sansa chose to trust Sandor in a certain way because he was not in a position to harm her as long as he worked for Joffrey. He may have been a sort of confessor or father replacement for her, natural, after all he is more than twice her age. In a way she could trust him because he had no reason to betray her. Fortunately she was too young to understand that he intended to rape her, she felt threatened but not in a sexual manner, her luck, otherwise she would have been thoroughly disturbed. So she might continue trusting him - until, being older, she realizes that Sandor has completely different ideas about their interactions than she has. She will wake up and know what to be afraid of.

:) Well someone should tell Sandor to stop having those sex dreams and making up kisses that never happened.

[Hound's She-wolf]

How do people think Robb would have reacted if Sandor had arrived with Arya in tow? I for one think that Sandor would have had a place in the Stark household (wouldn't that be awesome? a job where he isn't called a dog!) although not with the same level of prestige and responsibility that he had with the Lannisters.

That's one scene I would have loved to have read -- Sandor returning Arya to the Starks in his farmer getup...

I think the Northmen would have been really suspicious at first (and rightfully so, he was in the Lannister service from the age of 12) and I don't think he and Robb would have gotten along, but I think Sandor could have done well in the North.

I would love to see Sandor interact with the Wildlings. "So none of you are afraid of my scars? You only care about how strong and fierce I am? And noobody thinks that crazy bitch with the dog head on her spear is weird? Or the guy wearing clothing made out of bones? Huh."

[Alexia]

I believe that Sansa chose to trust Sandor in a certain way because he was not in a position to harm her as long as he worked for Joffrey.

Like Ser Boros and Ser Meryn weren't a position to harm her? :lmao:

What other possibility? Sansa is a prisoner of the Lannisters, and Sandor knows she is being treated horribly and wants to go home. Why would he consider anything other than the fact that it was a forced marriage and she is bitterly unhappy.

The possibility that Sansa would tear Tyrion's clothes off and fuck his brains out, silly. That's what all twelve year old girls want to do to dwarfs who are at war with their family and who hold them hostage.

I mean, is this not so obvious to you? :spank:

[1234567]

Edit: yes, of course Tyrion's and Sansa's relationship was a disaster so far, but Sandor had no way to know that and he did not even consider another possibility.

Nor did Cat or Robb (who wanted to cut off Tyrion's head). Sandor knew both of them and would have known the marriage was forced. Forced marriages are not the norm and generally mean one party at least is unwilling.

In terms of domestic abuse:

Sandor held a knife to Sansa's throat. Not okay. Robert hit and raped Cersei. Not Okay. Tyrion hit and then murdered a prostitute. Not Okay. Ned lied to his wife about Jon for their entire marriage. Not Okay. Jon Arryn treated his wife like soiled leavings and planned to remove her son from her. Not Okay. This isn't real life. In real life all these men are stay away from guys...even Ned.

I have never read Twilight. But I did see the film.....and god if I could get those hours back. From what other friends I know have said, it really is quite an unpleasant book with lots of men should be in charge of women overtones. It is also a romance, hence why people go on about Bella and Edward.

These books are not a romance novel, but that does not mean there are not romantic subplots. Personally I find the Dany / Drogo match to be really distasteful and actually prefer her with Daario. A man of her choosing.

Similarly Sansa and Sandor seem to have a mutual attraction that a lot of people have picked up on. As Sandor is mainly seen through Sansa chapters in the first two books, then they often get talked about in the same threads. Equally, they mention each other in almost every one of the chapters they are both in since the BBW. Therefore it is just not some sort of fangirl nonsense (although that is indulged in as well), but actually examining a relationship that is in the book, unlike say Dany and Jon, who have never met.

[Alexia]

I would love to see Sandor interact with the Wildlings. "So none of you are afraid of my scars? You only care about how strong and fierce I am? And noobody thinks that crazy bitch with the dog head on her spear is weird? Or the guy wearing clothing made out of bones? Huh."

I wish that we had got a scene with Sandor and Tyrion's Burned Man, Timmet. Or at least a reaction. That had so much potential... :lmao:

[Woman of War]

No one is suggesting Renly forced Loras into bed, but it was still a relationship based on unequal power dynamics. You really can't deny that the Renly/Marg/Loras situation wasn't twisted, can you? It goes beyond wanting her gay brother to be happy. She was married to Renly and very much prepared to carry on a public charade where she would bear his children, and her brother would warm his bed. I have no problem with it, but hell yes, it was twisted. I for one am I really hoping that we get a Tyrell POV in TWOW - either Marg or Loras, (or even Willas), that can shed some more light on what exactly happened there.

ALL those forced and arranged marriages in Westeros are totally twisted for our values. So a relationship with trust and friendship where you are totally safe because your husband loves your brother is far better than being at the mercy of whatever randomly chosen guy. And Renly may have closed his eyes and thought of the realm from time to time to make pretty babies, whereas he could hardly have objected if Margaery would have found some fun elsewhere.

[Jamie Lannister]

How do people think Robb would have reacted if Sandor had arrived with Arya in tow? I for one think that Sandor would have had a place in the Stark household (wouldn't that be awesome? a job where he isn't called a dog!) although not with the same level of prestige and responsibility that he had with the Lannisters.

That's one scene I would have loved to have read -- Sandor returning Arya to the Starks in his farmer getup...

I always thought Robb would've accepted him if he played his cards right with Arya (as in, offering her to him as a token of "good will" rather than a sum of cash), with some persuasion. He's one hell of an asset to have, considering he's one of the few people who could feasibly end the Riverlands' biggest headache: Gregor.

Plus, he was in the Kingsguard, and was reasonably trusted by the Lannisters. He would have quite a bit of insider knowledge.