Sandor Clegane v. 11

[Lemon Cake]

As for Tyrion, I don't believe for even a moment that he would beat Sansa, under any circumstances, whether he met her in KL or not. Part of the reason he treats whores the way he does is because he knows they are whores, and he self-justifies his actions by saying to his own conscious - "Well, I'm paying them, and they are accepting my money..." There is no evidence to indicate that he ever treated a highborn lady in the same manner. He has been kind to even Lollys Stokeworth, IIRC, though he did avoid her like the plague. :) And, not to repeat myself yet again, but Tyrion never raped Tysha, until he was fully convinced by Tywin and his beloved Jaime that she actually was a whore, and then had sex with her for money after his father's guards were done. I know that voodooqueen argues that Tywin wouldn't speak highly of Tyrion to his guards about this incident, but we're not really arguing whether or not Tywin would tell the truth, we're arguing about whether or not Tyrion would rape/physically abuse Sansa. The answer? A definitive "No".

Nope, sorry, not buying it. I'd have been more inclined to agree with you before the end of ASoS, but not now. He didn't give himself license to murder Shae because she was a whore instead of a highborn lady. He murdered her because he'd convinced himself he was in love with her and she'd hurt him. If he could do that to Shae, I have no problem believing he could, at the very least, physically strike Sansa if she pissed him off enough.

And when was he kind to Lollys? I don't even recall him interacting with her. And even if he wasn't unkind to her face, he certainly had some unkind thoughts about her.

[Hound's She-wolf]

And, not to repeat myself yet again, but Tyrion never raped Tysha, until he was fully convinced by Tywin and his beloved Jaime that she actually was a whore, and then had sex with her for money after his father's guards were done. I know that voodooqueen argues that Tywin wouldn't speak highly of Tyrion to his guards about this incident, but we're not really arguing whether or not Tywin would tell the truth, we're arguing about whether or not Tyrion would rape/physically abuse Sansa. The answer? A definitive "No".

No one is arguing about Tywin telling the truth, and you can repeat yourself until you're blue in the face and your fingers fall off from typing so much, but Tyrion said he raped Tysha, giving her money does not mean it was consentual. How does him thinking she was a whore make it not rape?

[Hound's She-wolf]

Let's face it Tyrion's not really a physical guy.

It was more in response to Woman of War's belief that Sandor would physically abuse Sansa if she dropped her "little bird persona".

When I actually think that Sandor likes Sansa's true personality (since she is honest with him the way she isn't with Tyrion).

Where as Tyrion actually doesn't like Sansa's personality, and was hoping that Sansa's icy courtesy was hiding Tysha 0.2

I think that Sandor has seen enough of her over the past year and some at KL to know what Sansa is like, it is afterall his job to watch the people around Joffrey for threats, etc. And since he knows what she's like so there wouldn't be a persona to drop.

[Candor]

I could see him calling them all crazy fuckers and then becoming a clan leader. Maybe that's how he gets Sansa out of the Vale. He takes over the Clans and raids the Vale.

Sandor: "And then they made me their chief. I proceeded to say bugger that, and told them to get their asses to war."

Sansa: *swoons*

Just kidding! But this would be an interesting turn of events, no doubt.

-----

Tyrion. *sigh* I'm sort of burned out on talking about him at the moment, no offense to anyone. :blushing:

At the risk of being self-involved, bringing in a theory from one of my personally-started threads that seems to point towards Sandor and Sansa.Granted, it's only if you interpret the scene as such. The scene is from Davo's first POV, and is when Stannis and Mel burned the figures of the Seven on Dragonstone.

"The Maiden lay athwart the Warrior, her arms widespread as if to embrace him."

[Raksha the Demon]

Sandor would never put mousse or gel in his hair the way that Edward seems to do; and you'd never catch Sandor looking like a male model....

Plus, Sansa is prettier and more graceful than Bella supposedly is.

I haven't read any of the Twilight books or seen the movies. If I want to see a vampire with moussed hair, I'll rewatch my Angel or Buffy dvds...

[only me]

I simply give up, these Sandor threads are utterly irrational and in no way justified by what is in the books.

About the excessive Sandor threads: too much time before the next book comes out and not enough Sandor in AFFC and ADWD. It is OK to get carried away sometimes.

A reader lives a thousand lives and a good book can be interpreted a thousand different ways.

[Zmeischa]

I wish that we had got a scene with Sandor and Tyrion's Burned Man, Timmet. Or at least a reaction. That had so much potential... :lmao:

If he ever makes it to the Montains of the Moon and meets the Burned Men clan - he will be their king. :lmao:

[Zmeischa]

Though, if we consider it, no matter who ends up being AA is going to have some bittersweet consequences as they'll have to kill someone dear to them.

I think it is not necessary to kill someone you love, it is more "sacrifice something you hold dear". Beric didn't kill his wife, yet he got a fiery sword, because he sacrificed his own life.

And that sword is still with the BwB, I presume. But, I guess, not fiery now. And, if someone took it and it lit again... that would be fun to watch :).

[voodooqueen126]

I am glad that Sandor is not likely to be Azor Ahai.

[I'dsingforyou]

I think they are both capable of abuse.

When Sandor is with Arya, she does try to kill him and has a go at him several times and thinks he might hit her, but he never does. He is verbally abusive to Sansa (see father's leg) and did hold a knife to her throat. So the precedent is there.

Tyrion has hit and murdered a woman he was in a relationship with, hit and humiliated his sister, raped a slave and was involved in forcing Sansa to marry him. He she not had her courtesy armour, he could have become unpleasant really quickly. He's still bitter she didn't kneel after all. So again the precedent is there. To be fair to Tyrion though, we haven't seen how Sandor treats whores, so it is difficult to compare.

From what we have seen, Sandor threatens and is verbally abusive while Tyrion is physically abusive, emotionally abusive and verbally abusive in his relationships with women.

Either way, neither is a great choice in the real world. In Westeros though, if I had to choose, I would go with the one with no proven track record of hit and murdering women he was in a relationship with......even if it meant there was no sparkling and witty banter.

I agree with what you have said rapsie :)

I also believe because of Sandors upbringing and the environment he was in, he was threatening and abusive because that was The Hound's own version of Sansa's 'courtesy armor' as such and used it to keep everyone at arms length.

He was probably bullied from a young age and found his size and menacing abilities worked as a deflection to some of the cruelties people could dish out.

It was probably easier for him to become the threatening and abusive Hound persona that everyone assumed he was from a young age then to try and pretend he had any goodness inside thus his awkward, bumbling and sometimes frightening attempts at conversations with Sansa. But with Ayra, although he is no conversationalist, he didn't go out of his way to be menacing and abusive, quite the opposite.

But with Tyrion, like him as I do, he in my eyes has treated women appallingly at times and with no respect at all and he is intelligent enough to know that. Plus he murdered for his own personal reasons the woman he supposedly loved, so I'd put my life in the hands of Sandor any day :)

[voodooqueen126]

I agree with what you have said rapsie :)

I also believe because of Sandors upbringing and the environment he was in, he was threatening and abusive because that was The Hound's own version of Sansa's 'courtesy armor' as such and used it to keep everyone at arms length.

He was probably bullied from a young age and found his size and menacing abilities worked as a deflection to some of the cruelties people could dish out.

It was probably easier for him to become the threatening and abusive Hound persona that everyone assumed he was from a young age then to try and pretend he had any goodness inside thus his awkward, bumbling and sometimes frightening attempts at conversations with Sansa. But with Ayra, although he is no conversationalist, he didn't go out of his way to be menacing and abusive, quite the opposite.

But with Tyrion, like him as I do, he in my eyes has treated women appallingly at times and with no respect at all and he is intelligent enough to know that. Plus he murdered for his own personal reasons the woman he supposedly loved, so I'd put my life in the hands of Sandor any day :)

true what you're saying about Sandor "id sing for you", I should also like to point out that Tyrion's whole family are basically narcissistic and lacking in empathy...

Although Sandor is related to Gregor...

[Ednawolf]

I am glad that Sandor is not likely to be Azor Ahai.

Will someone remind me again the argument that Sandor could be Azor Ahai? I think it was Alexia who makes this case...? I'm now at the end of ADWD, so I'm now digesting and ready to theorize on AA possibilities.

[1234567]

Small point, but I notice leg injuries are becoming common with the Cleganes. Sandor's Grandfather lost a leg defending Tytos Lannister from a Lion and now Sandor has an injured leg as well. I'm not sure if there is any relevance, but the Grandfather was rewarded.

[brashcandy]

Small point, but I notice leg injuries are becoming common with the Cleganes. Sandor's Grandfather lost a leg defending Tytos Lannister from a Lion and now Sandor has an injured leg as well. I'm not sure if there is any relevance, but the Grandfather was rewarded.

:) Rapsie, I just read that passage again today when he was telling Sansa of what happened, and I thought the same thing! Hmmm...

[1234567]

:) Rapsie, I just read that passage again today when he was telling Sansa of what happened, and I thought the same thing! Hmmm...

Well the grandfather lost 3 dogs and Sandor lost one she-wolf after his fight. Although he and Arya did dispose of three of Gregor's dogs.....now I am clutching at straws!!!

[brashcandy]

Well the grandfather lost 3 dogs and Sandor lost one she-wolf after his fight. Although he and Arya did dispose of three of Gregor's dogs.....now I am clutching at straws!!!

:) Well, Sandor nearly lost his life, and he represented the Clegane family - so that counts as losing the "dogs". Plus, instead of defending a Lannister like his grandfather did, he was defending a Stark against the men employed by Lannisters. It all fits! ;) Since the Lannisters are now the losers of the game, Sandor will inevitably be rewarded by the victors.

[Candor]

Well the grandfather lost 3 dogs and Sandor lost one she-wolf after his fight. Although he and Arya did dispose of three of Gregor's dogs.....now I am clutching at straws!!!

As long as we have enough straw left for the hay ride, I am good. ^_^

It is an interesting point. I'd very much like for him to get a reward of some kind, and definitely to be acquitted for Saltpans... but who even knows how it will turn out?

true what you're saying about Sandor "id sing for you", I should also like to point out that Tyrion's whole family are basically narcissistic and lacking in empathy...

Although Sandor is related to Gregor...

Though who takes after their family more? I'm thinking Tyrion. Tyrion, to me, though he has his problems with them seems to relish some of his family trait's or at least, their status. People fear them, they respect them, they get what they want.

Sandor has tried to avoid taking after his brother his whole life.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Though who takes after their family more? I'm thinking Tyrion. Tyrion, to me, though he has his problems with them seems to relish some of his family trait's or at least, their status. People fear them, they respect them, they get what they want.

Sandor has tried to avoid taking after his brother his whole life.

In another thread, link long lost, a poster wrote that GRRM said that there were four descendants of Dunk, aka Ser Duncan the Tall, in asoiaf. I think one of them is definitely Brienne -- her family has Ser Duncan's shield in its castle, and she's very Dunk-like. Hodor, I think, is the second, a relic of Dunk's visit to Winterfell, and I suspect Gregor and Sandor are Dunklings three and four. Gregor has nothing in common but his size; Sandor, though, may have inherited Dunk's conscience. Time will tell, I guess.

[headtrip_honey]

Dunklings! Love it.

[1234567]

In another thread, link long lost, a poster wrote that GRRM said that there were four descendants of Dunk, aka Ser Duncan the Tall, in asoiaf. I think one of them is definitely Brienne -- her family has Ser Duncan's shield in its castle, and she's very Dunk-like. Hodor, I think, is the second, a relic of Dunk's visit to Winterfell, and I suspect Gregor and Sandor are Dunklings three and four. Gregor has nothing in common but his size; Sandor, though, may have inherited Dunk's conscience. Time will tell, I guess.

Also both he and Brienne are Knights in the sense of what a Knight show stand for, to a far greater degree than any of the actual Sers. Although Sandor is also far behind Brienne on the behaviour front.