Sandor Clegane v. 11

[FacelessGirl]

:lmao:

[Candor]

No wonder what Randa told her made her blush then :)

Expliquez-vous? Somehow I missed your meaning :(

[voodooqueen126]

Well Dante in the Vita Nouvo talks about how simply loving a good woman can make you a better person.

[Candor]

Well Dante in the Vita Nouvo talks about how simply loving a good woman can make you a better person.

Behind every great man is a great woman. :]

I agree with you here, Ice Crow. Getting to that point mentally though, is going to take some time, and I don't think he's gonna reach it on the Quiet Isle.

At some point in our lives, we must leave our nests and learn to fly.

Wowzers I'm waxing philosophical tonight.

[Zmeischa]

What do you think the motivation was for GRRM to go down this path of the fake Hound behaving badly and everyone thinking it was Sandor Clegane? I think only Jaime questioned whether or not it was really him. And of course Brienne knows the truth as well now. How will he ever untarnish his name?

Three reasons, I think.

First, it moves the plot. There is a whole intricate storyline involving him, EB, Brienne, Gendry, Rorge and Biter, Jaime and BwB, and, possibly, other people as well.

Second, it is a part of "a hero going down" pattern. He is just one of the people in the books who lose their standing in society, their reputation, and are accused of the things they never did. Which sort of proves that he is important to the series not just as a "plot-mover".

Third, it is a visible way to divide his two personalities - Sandor and the Hound.

[Alexia]

Me too.

Back on the topic of Sandor. I know we ship him mercilessly with Sansa ;) and we always talk of whether or not she could really be with him marriage wise, or whether or not she would even want to. But I've been wondering lately if, given the opportunity, Sandor would really go there. I mean obviously the relationship would have had to develop significantly for this to be even be a possibility, but would he want to pursue a relationship with her, knowing of his reputation, and with the knowledge of what a colossal jerk he was in the past?

I read a post somewhere saying that the poster felt that Sandor had her so high on a pedestal that he would be afraid to touch her, since having sex with her would take her down from the pedestal. It was an interesting though.

Mya and Myranda speak to her more of the hey how doing :leer: sex aspects of things. Not so much the ways of breaking through a man who has lived his whole life with a titanium wall around his heart never letting anyone in and showing him love is a good thing. From what ive read i don't think they will be much help in that respect.

Sansa's a natural in that regard. She already broke down Sandor's walls and got under his skin; she made him cry, TWICE.

[brashcandy]

Expliquez-vous? Somehow I missed your meaning :(

Remember when she asks Randa if Lothor prefers Mya in dresses or if he likes her in her leather gear (something like this!) and Randa says no, he's a man, he's picturing her naked.

Good ole Randa :)

[brashcandy]

I read a post somewhere saying that the poster felt that Sandor had her so high on a pedestal that he would be afraid to touch her, since having sex with her would take her down from the pedestal. It was an interesting though.

I could see the logic to that argument, but I don't think it's that he has her up on a pedestal so much as he has himself down in the gutter.

[Zmeischa]

I read a post somewhere saying that the poster felt that Sandor had her so high on a pedestal that he would be afraid to touch her, since having sex with her would take her down from the pedestal. It was an interesting though.

I dont think so. He isn't blind to her faults, he laughs at her blunders, and he treats her too rough.

He might start to feel that way, though.

[Alexia]

I dont think so. He isn't blind to her faults, he laughs at her blunders, and he treats her too rough.

He might start to feel that way, though.

OTOH, he seems to have begun to idealize her as a perfect representation of a "proper little lady." She represents everything he stopped believing in, purity and innocence and kindness, with religious faith as well. It is part of why he fixates on her as he does.

[voodooqueen126]

CLIO - Journal of Ancient and Medieval History at Dickson College

http://www.dicksonc.act.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/42281/Dantes_love_for_Beatrice_-_A_Courtly_Romance.pdf

1

Dante's 'love' for Beatrice: A Courtly Romance

Claire

Beatrice Portinari is quite an obscure figure in history. That she is known at all is due

to the works of Dante Alighieri, the famous medieval poet who harboured a secret

love for her that inspired many of his greatest works. According to historical sources

and to Dante himself, he and Beatrice were only ever introduced on two occasions

and Dante knew very little about her. However, the ways in which Dante chose to

express his love for Beatrice often coincided with the medieval idea of courtly love,

an unrequited, secret, but highly respectful form of admiration. It is difficult to

understand what it was Dante fell in love with, having had no meaningful association

with her and apparently having been fairly unconcerned with her physical appearance.

In the words of Marianne Shapiro: "It is at least arguable that Beatrice answers the

question of the lady while ignoring the question of woman." Beatrice first appeared as

in Dante's La Nuova Vita, and later as a character in La Divina Commedia where she

was Dante's guide through heaven, a significant role illustrating the fact that Beatrice

as a person was an unknown entity to Dante but was symbolic to him as an ideal and

this is what he fell in love with.

Beatrice appears to be, by all accounts, a fairly normal woman of noble birth. She

lived in Florence, which was also Dante's home, and the pair first met when Beatrice

was nine years old and Dante nearly ten. Beatrice became an object of inspiration for

Dante, who wrote endlessly about her for years afterwards. According to historical

sources and to Dante himself they did not formally meet again until nine years later,

although Dante supposedly saw Beatrice around the city but never spoke to her. On

their second encounter Beatrice greeted Dante as she passed him, and Dante wrote

later: "the hope of her admirable greeting abolished in me all enmity and I was

possessed by a flame of charity, and if anyone had asked me a question I would have

said only Love! with a countenance full of humility."

However, this was to be their last meeting despite the fact that Beatrice, who died at

the young age of 25 was still alive for the next eight years. Sources believe that Dante

kept his love for Beatrice secret. He was betrothed to and married a woman by the

name of Gemma Donati, although the time at which this marriage took place is

unclear, and Beatrice later married a man named Simon de' Bardi before she her death

in 1290.

The concept of courtly love is certainly a medieval one. Courtly love itself is difficult

to define, but it does have certain characteristics similar to those which were

represented in Dante's affection for Beatrice, such as the secretive element of the

relationship, where Dante was so determined that Beatrice would not discover his

feelings towards her that he pretended to be courting other Florentine women. The

idea of unrequited love which never gave up hope (supposedly the most noble love

was devoted love), the resulting admiration from afar as opposed to a functional

relationship, and the suffering involved on the part of the suitor, all fit the definition

of courtly love, and these elements are visible in Dante's affections towards Beatrice.

No actual relationship ever occurred between the two except the one imagined by

Dante in his work.

CLIO - Journal of Ancient and Medieval History at Dickson College

2

It is not entirely clear what it was in Beatrice that Dante fell so utterly in love with.

After Beatrice's death, Dante continued to write about her: "The love between them

was wholly spiritual; after her death Dante realised she was more alive than ever." But

why was this? Having met her only twice, Dante had no real insight into her

character. He wrote of her once: "She has ineffable courtesy, is my beautitude, the

destroyer of all vices and the queen of virtue, salvation." Obviously Dante believed

that Beatrice rid him of all evil intention, but it must be asked, was it Beatrice herself

who had this effect or the idea of her Dante had in his mind? Attributes such as

'ineffable courtesy' and 'virtue' can be seen from a distance; one does not necessarily

need to know a person to recognise such traits. It was also apparently not Beatrice's

outward appearance that drew Dante to her. According to one source, he rarely

seemed concerned with physical qualities when he wrote about Beatrice, alluding only

once to the colour of her complexion, her skin, and her 'emerald' eyes. Little else is

known about Beatrice's appearance, so it appears that Dante was attracted to more in

Beatrice than her physical features.

Beatrice first appears as Dante's inspiration in La Nuova Vita, which Dante wrote in

1291 after her death. The book contained many poems about Beatrice and described

her with such words as 'gentilissima' (gracious) and 'benedetta' (blessed). Having once

referred to Beatrice as his 'salvation,' Dante reinforced later this idea in La Divina

Commedia where a fictional Beatrice became his guide through heaven. In this epic,

Beatrice speaks to Dante on personal terms and is 'maternal, radiant and comforting,'

which is certainly an improvement on their real relationship which had barely any

personal basis at all. It is here that Dante begins to shape Beatrice as a person, but as a

person of his own creation; the words she speaks and the relationship between them

all come from Dante's pen and not from Beatrice herself. He referred to her once as 'la

gloriosa donna della mia mente,' (the glorious lady of my mind) and in truth, the

Beatrice Dante fell in love with and wrote about was certainly in his mind, a glorious

fictional lady but an unknown woman.

Dante fell in love with an idea of his own making. Beatrice was, to him, an ideal, a

perfect woman in every sense of the word, and this suited his purpose. She was a tool

of inspiration to him, and he was a devoted if secret suitor who still loved her long

after she died. The admiration and affection he felt for her were directed towards a

perfection she may not have possessed at all, but Dante apparently chose not to

explore Beatrice the person; instead he was satisfied with the fantasy relationship he

created through his writing.

Bibliography

Shapiro, Marianne, Women Earthly and Divine, 1975, University Press of Kentucky,

Lexington, U.S.A.

Williams, Charles, The Figure of Beatrice, 1953, Faber, London, England.

Rizzatti, Maria Luisa, The Life and Times of Dante, 1967, Paul Hamlyn, London,

England.

Cervigni, Dino S, Dante's Poetry of Dreams, 1936, Giulio Bertoni, Florence, Italy.

[brashcandy]

OTOH, he seems to have begun to idealize her as a perfect representation of a "proper little lady." She represents everything he stopped believing in, purity and innocence and kindness, with religious faith as well. It is part of why he fixates on her as he does.

Agreed. But maybe he'll change his tune if he heads up the Eyrie and finds her living as Alayne Stone, with Myranda Royce for a friend, and a lot more realistic and cunning.

[Alexia]

Great post, Voodooqueen.

Agreed. But maybe he'll change his tune if he heads up the Eyrie and finds her living as Alayne Stone, with Myranda Royce for a friend, and a lot more realistic and cunning.

I don't think he would like that. I was listening to a podcast as while back about how to write romances within the context of fantasy/SF settings and it was said that each character needs to fulfill a need of the other in some way. SanSan do this perfectly, Sandor the cynical jaded cruel warrior who looks at the world and sees only evil and embraces that vision, Sansa the innocent young girl who believes in the perfect goodness of man and that the stories are all true, and squeezes her eyes shut when confronted by evil. Sandor fulfills Sansa's need for protection, Sansa fulfills Sandor's need for human compassion and kindness. Thus, romance blossoms.

With both of them changing, it'll be interesting to see how they respond to each other when they meet again. I expect a completely different dynamic -- and a lot of disappointment, on both sides.

[Whatever]

I read a post somewhere saying that the poster felt that Sandor had her so high on a pedestal that he would be afraid to touch her, since having sex with her would take her down from the pedestal. It was an interesting though.

OTOH, he seems to have begun to idealize her as a perfect representation of a "proper little lady." She represents everything he stopped believing in, purity and innocence and kindness, with religious faith as well. It is part of why he fixates on her as he does.

This is really interesting.

And I love @voodooqueen comparison to Dante's Beatrice, I think it's really spot on. We're reading Dante's Paradiso in my class, in which he keeps describing how Beatrice is his spiritual guide, how his love for her makes him a better person and so on.

I really love the comparison ^^

[voodooqueen126]

Alas I just copied and posted from someone else's great essay:

But found more Sandor/Sansa comparisons.

Earlier, before she had fallen ill, Dante described Beatrice's power to change those who beheld her in this manner:

" I say in truth that she appeared so gracious and in every way so pleasant that those who looked at her experienced in themselves a sweetness so pure and gentle that they were unable to describe it; and there was no one who could look at her without immediately sighing. These and more marvellous things resulted from her influence. (XXVI: 14-20) In a similar vein, he also said, Whenever and wherever she appeared... I glowed with a flame of charity which moved me to forgive all who had ever injured me. (XI: 1-5.) And then, So it is plain that in her greeting resided all my joy, which often exceeded and overflowed my capacity. (XI: 20-22.)

As a young adult Dante once attended a party where he discovered Beatrice to also be in attendance. He writes this description of his state upon learning she was there: Then my spirits were so routed by the power which Love acquired on finding himself so close to this most gracious being that none survived except the spirits of vision; and even they were driven from their organs because Love himself desired to occupy their noble place in order to behold her who inspired such wonder. (XIV: 25-31) He then proceeds to make such a fool of himself that a friend drags him from the room and away from the group of women (including Beatrice) who have started to mock him. Dante flees from the party in shame, retreating to his "room of tears" where he writes a poem which, basically, says "if you understood how much I loved you, you would stop laughing at me and feel pity". This man is clearly Love's fool.

I'll quote a stanza from a canzone in chapter XIX. Here, Love himself stands in awe of Beatrice's virtues:

Love says of her: 'How can a mortal thing

Have purity and beauty such as hers?'

Then looks again and to himself he swears

A marvel she must be which God intends.

Pearl-like, not to excess, her colouring,

As suited to a lady's face, appears.

She is the sum of nature's universe.

To her perfection all of beauty tends.

Forth from her eyes, where'er her gaze she bends,

Come spirits flaming with the power of love.

Whoever sees her then, those eyes they prove,

Passing within until the heart each finds.

You will see Love depicted in her face,

There where no man dare linger with his gaze.

From LA VITA NUOVA

I am looking for more.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

One of the amusing things about Sandor's relationship to Sansa is that the more he lectures her about being a silly little girl in love with romantic and heroic songs, the more he crushes on her like a kid in grammar school.

[Candor]

Remember when she asks Randa if Lothor prefers Mya in dresses or if he likes her in her leather gear (something like this!) and Randa says no, he's a man, he's picturing her naked.

Good ole Randa :)

Oh god gotta love Randa :P

That's right, Sansa, naked. No leather, no dresses, naked. Woo.

I read a post somewhere saying that the poster felt that Sandor had her so high on a pedestal that he would be afraid to touch her, since having sex with her would take her down from the pedestal. It was an interesting though.

No contest I think that if they do go down the intimate road it will be up to Sansa to set him straight. I don't think he'll need a lot of convincing, though. ;)

---

Sansa's a natural in that regard. She already broke down Sandor's walls and got under his skin; she made him cry, TWICE.

Sansa: How are you doing today, Hound?

Sandor: *bawls* So. beautiful.

Sansa: 0-o...okayyy

:lmao:

[little_horn]

This probably doesn't even belong here but did you guys see the new production video on makingofgameofthrones.com??? Rory in his Hound makeup shoots a grin and a thumbs up to the camera! *swoon*

[voodooqueen126]

I wonder what would happen if Petrarch,* Sandor and Dante's* complete works translated into Westerosi had to share a guest house in a Septry. Perhaps Petrarch expy would be visiting the Septry in order to track down the writings of Valyria's Cicero.

Who would be from Pentos and would probably follow R'hllor instead.

[brashcandy]

Oh god gotta love Randa :P

That's right, Sansa, naked. No leather, no dresses, naked. Woo.

Yup, poor Sansa was a bit scandalised, but I'm sure that was about the mildest thing Randa will tell her when they really settle in. :)