Sandor Clegane v. 11

[Candor]

Also, the Twilight references and denigrations really need to stop. I haven't read the books, although I had the misfortune of seeing two of the movies, but I'm not sure exactly what Sandor and Sansa have to do with Edward and Bella, or with Twilight. Is Sandor a vampire now or something?

And Azor Ahai, don't forget ;)

Interestingly, Prince Tyrion has not only actually raped women, but he has also actually physically abused and murdered a sex partner. He threatened another, unwilling sex partner with the same.

There is no textual evidence that Sandor has ever done such a thing. It can be speculated that he has, based on certain commentary (and I don't happen to think that he has) but it is CANON that Tyrion has.

I personally started off liking Tyrion, I still like him even though he's currently terrifying me. Lately I'm liking him just because he is downspiraling so much. His actions are inexcusable, but horrifyingly entertaining in a way.

Even if he hadn't done all of that, though, Sansa still doesn't like, and won't like him even if she does "grow up." I stand by that, firmly.

Even if I didn't ship Sandor and Sansa, I would still think Tyrion to be a horrible match for her, based on their personalities and the bad blood between them.

Frankly, Woman of War, I find this to be the height of hypocrisy, coming from you. You've made it clear in your comments on other threads that you hope Sansa learns to appreciate and throws herself at the feet of poor, misunderstood widdle Tyrion, and that their marriage eventually works out. And all this despite the fact that Tyrion is a murderer and a rapist who killed the last woman he was in love with. I love how you just gloss over that and act like that immature, bitchy, shallow Sansa should grow up and understand how ~amazing~ your beloved Tyrion is, while coming in here on your hypocritical, self-righteous high horse and trying to act morally superior to us for shipping her with Sandor Clegane -- a man who, for all his past faults, has not raped or murdered any woman he professed to love.

Really, your self-righteous hypocrisy is astounding.

This.

If we find out Sandor has done these things in later novels, sure, that is going to make him just as bad as the rest of them. But so far, he is looking better than most.

And if it's a matter of age..............Tyrion is still vastly older than Sansa, am I right? So you can't use that argument to degrade Sandor given that Tyrion shipping would run into the same issue.

[1234567]

Tyrion is two years younger than Sandor so 24 or 25 I think.

Edit: Tyrion was 10 during the Rebellion and it is thought Sandor was at the sack of KL and is also known to have killed his first man at 12.

[Hound's She-wolf]

And Azor Ahai, don't forget ;)

If we find out Sandor has done these things in later novels, sure, that is going to make him just as bad as the rest of them. But so far, he is looking better than most.

And if it's a matter of age..............Tyrion is still vastly older than Sansa, am I right? So you can't use that argument to degrade Sandor given that Tyrion shipping would run into the same issue.

Well, I have stated before I think he is AA, so...anyhoo.

Yes, if find out he is a rapist like dear old Tyrion, then I will change my opinion of him.

And I think Tyrion is a vast twoyears younger than Sandor. And Rapsie beat me to the post again.

[Alexia]

I thought Tyrion was eight during the Rebellion?

[1234567]

Well, I have stated before I think he is AA, so...anyhoo.

Yes, if find out he is a rapist like dear old Tyrion, then I will change my opinion of him.

Edit: Yes, if Sandor has raped someone, it would certainly make me re-evaluate his character.

I'm not sure about AA, but there is a little bit that might tie him in with the 3 Heads of the Dragon in AFFC. Septon Meribald is talking about the Inn and said the Sign used to be a black metal three headed dragon. He then comments that after it fell in the river, one of the heads ended up on the Quiet Isle, all covered in rust. Which could suggest facial disfigurement / burns and well I think it is odd anyway.

And I think Tyrion is a vast twoyears younger than Sandor. And Rapsie beat me to the post again.

A nice sauvignon gives you the speedy typing fingers. :cool4:

[Candor]

Tyrion is two years younger than Sandor so 24 or 25 I think.

Edit: Tyrion was 10 during the Rebellion and it is thought Sandor was at the sack of KL and is also known to have killed his first man at 12.

Still, in comparison to Sansa, they're both at least ten years older than her. Given that they're similar in age, I don't see how her age argument works, which is what I was pointing out.

I don't think it's impossible that Sandor is AA, I just don't really want to go down the who his Nissa Nissa would be road.......that only ends in a sword through the breast. :P

Though him swinging some awesome firey sword would be badass.

Edit: Yes, if Sandor has raped someone, it would certainly make me re-evaluate his character.

I'm not sure about AA, but there is a little bit that might tie him in with the 3 Heads of the Dragon in AFFC. Septon Meribald is talking about the Inn and said the Sign used to be a black metal three headed dragon. He then comments that after it fell in the river, one of the heads ended up on the Quiet Isle, all covered in rust. Which could suggest facial disfigurement / burns and well I think it is odd anyway.

Same.

Nice catch! That's a neat consideration

[Hound's She-wolf]

Edit: Yes, if Sandor has raped someone, it would certainly make me re-evaluate his character.

I'm not sure about AA, but there is a little bit that might tie him in with the 3 Heads of the Dragon in AFFC. Septon Meribald is talking about the Inn and said the Sign used to be a black metal three headed dragon. He then comments that after it fell in the river, one of the heads ended up on the Quiet Isle, all covered in rust. Which could suggest facial disfigurement / burns and well I think it is odd anyway.

A nice sauvignon gives you the speedy typing fingers. :cool4:

Ooo, I didn't catch the third head of the dragon washing up on the isle. Hmmmm, I can add that to my list of crackpots theories I endorse.

Alas, I cannot drink for a few more months...

[Hound's She-wolf]

Still, in comparison to Sansa, they're both at least ten years older than her. Given that they're similar in age, I don't see how her age argument works, which is what I was pointing out.

I don't think it's impossible that Sandor is AA, I just don't really want to go down the who his Nissa Nissa would be road.......that only ends in a sword through the breast. :P

Though him swinging some awesome firey sword would be badass.

Agreed on the whole Tyrion vs Sandor's age-not really any difference.

I love the vision of the guy who is fire phobic swinging a fiery sword, my biggest support of this belief is Beric saying that the God of Rh'llor still has unfinished business with him. And if he would happen to be AA, then the only two possibilities for Nissa Nissa would be Sansa or Stranger-the only two things I think he cares for in the world.

[Candor]

Agreed on the whole Tyrion vs Sandor's age-not really any difference.

I love the vision of the guy who is fire phobic swinging a fiery sword, my biggest support of this belief is Beric saying that the God of Rh'llor still has unfinished business with him. And if he would happen to be AA, then the only two possibilities for Nissa Nissa would be Sansa or Stranger-the only two things I think he cares for in the world.

Come on, Stranger! :crosses fingers, sadly, because I like horses:

Well in any case that points to him being alive rather than dead off screen :P

It's interesting, and I think I would have a hell of a read if it came true, because just the sheer wild-card-ness of it would be entertaining, considering Sandor isn't one of the main candidates for AA at all! (They generally are Jon, Dany, Stannis, maybe Brienne in people's minds)

[brashcandy]

If Sandor is AA then the tempering of the sword in his beloved's breast doesn't have to be literal. He could have been reborn by Sansa's love/compassion, or perhaps he'll be given Oathkeeper and saving her will be the test. Anyhoo, it's a fun theory, but prophecies have become so tiresome :)

[Hound's She-wolf]

I think an occasional prophecy is just fine, but when every dream is foreshadowing something, Dany goes on an LSD like out of body experience and every woods has a witch or fortune teller spouting out prophecies left and right-well, gets to be a little much.

[brashcandy]

Sandor must have awful dreams, come to think of it. I wonder if that's why he prefers to be stinking drunk rambling around at night...

[Candor]

Sandor must have awful dreams, come to think of it. I wonder if that's why he prefers to be stinking drunk rambling around at night...

I would not be surprised

[voodooqueen126]

I actually am interested in Sandor vs Tyrion.

Here is a big difference.

Sandor actually likes Sansa's personality for who she is.

Tyrion wants Sansa to become Tysha 0.2

Now which relationship do you think would be more likely to end in domestic violence?

[Candor]

I actually am interested in Sandor vs Tyrion.

Here is a big difference.

Sandor actually likes Sansa's personality for who she is.

Tyrion wants Sansa to become Tysha 0.2

Now which relationship do you think would be more likely to end in domestic violence?

I don't necessarily agree that Tyrion would abuse Sansa.

I think in his previous arrangements no matter how he fantasized about them being wives/girlfriends, he always in the end treated them like whores and thus got away with abusing them because they were "lower" than him. Once his fairytale was over, a whore was just a whore and there was no reason not to throttle her.

[Hound's She-wolf]

Ehhh, Tyrion could become physically abusive (he did with Shae while they were in a "relationship") but I think he would become very verbally and emotionally abusive if she didn't ultimately live up to his ideals of a wife.

[Candor]

Ehhh, Tyrion could become physically abusive (he did with Shae while they were in a "relationship") but I think he would become very verbally and emotionally abusive if she didn't ultimately live up to his ideals of a wife.

I could see verbal emotional stuff but not really physical.

[1234567]

I think they are both capable of abuse.

When Sandor is with Arya, she does try to kill him and has a go at him several times and thinks he might hit her, but he never does. He is verbally abusive to Sansa (see father's leg) and did hold a knife to her throat. So the precedent is there.

Tyrion has hit and murdered a woman he was in a relationship with, hit and humiliated his sister, raped a slave and was involved in forcing Sansa to marry him. He she not had her courtesy armour, he could have become unpleasant really quickly. He's still bitter she didn't kneel after all. So again the precedent is there. To be fair to Tyrion though, we haven't seen how Sandor treats whores, so it is difficult to compare.

From what we have seen, Sandor threatens and is verbally abusive while Tyrion is physically abusive, emotionally abusive and verbally abusive in his relationships with women.

Either way, neither is a great choice in the real world. In Westeros though, if I had to choose, I would go with the one with no proven track record of hit and murdering women he was in a relationship with......even if it meant there was no sparkling and witty banter.

[voodooqueen126]

I could see verbal emotional stuff but not really physical.

Let's face it Tyrion's not really a physical guy.

It was more in response to Woman of War's belief that Sandor would physically abuse Sansa if she dropped her "little bird persona".

When I actually think that Sandor likes Sansa's true personality (since she is honest with him the way she isn't with Tyrion).

Where as Tyrion actually doesn't like Sansa's personality, and was hoping that Sansa's icy courtesy was hiding Tysha 0.2

I think they are both capable of abuse.

When Sandor is with Arya, she does try to kill him and has a go at him several times and thinks he might hit her, but he never does. He is verbally abusive to Sansa (see father's leg) and did hold a knife to her throat. So the precedent is there.

Tyrion has hit and murdered a woman he was in a relationship with, hit and humiliated his sister, raped a slave and was involved in forcing Sansa to marry him. He she not had her courtesy armour, he could have become unpleasant really quickly. He's still bitter she didn't kneel after all. So again the precedent is there. To be fair to Tyrion though, we haven't seen how Sandor treats whores, so it is difficult to compare.

From what we have seen, Sandor threatens and is verbally abusive while Tyrion is physically abusive, emotionally abusive and verbally abusive in his relationships with women.

Either way, neither is a great choice in the real world. In Westeros though, if I had to choose, I would go with the one with no proven track record of hit and murdering women he was in a relationship with......even if it meant there was no sparkling and witty banter.

It's worth noting that Tyrion is not witty and amusing with women, nor does Tyrion want to engage with women on an intellectual level (you help me most between the sheets), he views women in a purely sexual light (if they are ugly he wants nothing to do with them), and when women don't fit into Tyrion's desired model for a woman, he either ignores them (like he ignored Sansa) or abuses them, culminating in their murder.

Tyrion also had absolute power over Sansa, where as if Sandor met Sansa in a situation that wasn't him in Joffrey's Kingsguard (since all the other Lannister employees abused Sansa) Sansa would actually have power over him (due to the class disparities).

oh and btw people Edward and Bella isn't Sandor and Sansa

it's Sansa and Loras Tyrell... Just saying is all.

[Son of Jon Snarkgaryen]

Tyrion also had absolute power over Sansa, where as if Sandor met Sansa in a situation that wasn't him in Joffrey's Kingsguard (since all the other Lannister employees abused Sansa) Sansa would actually have power over him (due to the class disparities).

Except that Sandor loves bucking authority, rebelling against it. He gets a kick out of it. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that, if he and Sansa met at random, outside King's Landing, outisde the influence of the Kingsguard and the influence of the Lannisters, that he would obey a word she said or respect her status, or recognize her social "station". Given how much he mocks her, he might go so far as to actually spit on her or threaten her, especially if he were on one of his characteristic drunken benders. As for whether or not he would take his mocking to the physical, and beat or rape her during a chance meeting on the road.... Uncertain. I would say that he would probably not rape her, as he seems to genuinely appreciate her "little bird" quailties, but he's complex to say the least. He certainly is capable of violence and stalking. That scene where he was waiting in her bed chambers during the Battle of the Blackwater was positively creepy, in my opinion, not unlike Edward (from Twilight) watching Bella sleep. :ack:

As for Tyrion, I don't believe for even a moment that he would beat Sansa, under any circumstances, whether he met her in KL or not. Part of the reason he treats whores the way he does is because he knows they are whores, and he self-justifies his actions by saying to his own conscious - "Well, I'm paying them, and they are accepting my money..." There is no evidence to indicate that he ever treated a highborn lady in the same manner. He has been kind to even Lollys Stokeworth, IIRC, though he did avoid her like the plague. :) And, not to repeat myself yet again, but Tyrion never raped Tysha, until he was fully convinced by Tywin and his beloved Jaime that she actually was a whore, and then had sex with her for money after his father's guards were done. I know that voodooqueen argues that Tywin wouldn't speak highly of Tyrion to his guards about this incident, but we're not really arguing whether or not Tywin would tell the truth, we're arguing about whether or not Tyrion would rape/physically abuse Sansa. The answer? A definitive "No".